Let's put this in perspective

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IF you lived in CCMD and you thought that DC and CCDC "had no right to exist" and you kept lobbing rockets across Western Avenue, hitting our houses, destroying our schools etc one day we would get fed up with it and fight back. That's what is happening in Israel. Hamas does not want peace. They want to annihilate Israel.

I think in actuality Israel wants to annihilate Palestine and all of there people. It is quite apparent by their actions-had they just kept the land they initially stole/got from the UN-and peacefully co-existed with the arabs (perhaps even helping them to prosper as well) there would be peace at least in that small sliver of the middle east. Instead, feeling superior, they want to control and oppress, take over and monopolize, ans become segregated and separatists. They are greedy and self righteous, and hypocrites going against everything in their Talmud and religion.

In 1948, Israel expressed hope to live at peace with her neighbors. Her neighbors responded by attacking. Israel won, resulting in the bounty boundaries pre-1967.
Are you suggesting Israel retreat to the UN lines, or the 1967 lines?

Not pp, but Israel should have never been created. You don't go and put a new country, where people are already living. Palestinians were not the cause of the Holocaust, and I think there's a lot of misplaced expectations & responsibility placed on them. I don't support Israel. I don't support a Jewish state. I support a single, secular state where people can live cohesively, together, in a democratic setting (which Israel is not - despite it's false claims).

Assuming a one-state solution is the right answer, how will you enforce a secular state, when the state will quickly be majority muslim? Based on the Jews experience in every other Muslim country, you are basically calling for the mass genocide of 7 million Jews.

If your argument against a secular state where everyone lives together is "Genocide! because MUSLIMS!" I suggest you find a better argument.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That one state solution worked real well for Yugoslavia after Tito died....

The divided state solution is working out just peachy for Pakistan and Indian though, right? The British effed up bigtime. You can't just slice up colonized territories like that, and expect things to roll over smoothly.

The British promised the land of Israel/Palestine to both sides in exchange for support in WWI. That is the problem. Lets blame the kidney pie eating warm beer drinkers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IF you lived in CCMD and you thought that DC and CCDC "had no right to exist" and you kept lobbing rockets across Western Avenue, hitting our houses, destroying our schools etc one day we would get fed up with it and fight back. That's what is happening in Israel. Hamas does not want peace. They want to annihilate Israel.

I think in actuality Israel wants to annihilate Palestine and all of there people. It is quite apparent by their actions-had they just kept the land they initially stole/got from the UN-and peacefully co-existed with the arabs (perhaps even helping them to prosper as well) there would be peace at least in that small sliver of the middle east. Instead, feeling superior, they want to control and oppress, take over and monopolize, ans become segregated and separatists. They are greedy and self righteous, and hypocrites going against everything in their Talmud and religion.

In 1948, Israel expressed hope to live at peace with her neighbors. Her neighbors responded by attacking. Israel won, resulting in the bounty boundaries pre-1967.
Are you suggesting Israel retreat to the UN lines, or the 1967 lines?

Not pp, but Israel should have never been created. You don't go and put a new country, where people are already living. Palestinians were not the cause of the Holocaust, and I think there's a lot of misplaced expectations & responsibility placed on them. I don't support Israel. I don't support a Jewish state. I support a single, secular state where people can live cohesively, together, in a democratic setting (which Israel is not - despite it's false claims).

Assuming a one-state solution is the right answer, how will you enforce a secular state, when the state will quickly be majority muslim? Based on the Jews experience in every other Muslim country, you are basically calling for the mass genocide of 7 million Jews.

Who is calling for the mass genocide of Jews? Were the Palestinians doing so? Where they calling for further genocide after WWII? Were the Muslims? No, they were not - they got along quite well, actually. There's a history and chain of events that you cannot ignore, and that political opposition to Israel may actually be justified - without calling for further Jewish genocide.

How do other secular democracies maintain their position? Can a one-state solution not follow a similar paradigm?

Name a single Muslim-majority secular democracy where Jews are allowed to live and practice their religion in peace.

Pre or post 48? You must understand that a lot of hostility is due to events following then - sentiments can't be disconnected. But Turkey's pretty tolerant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IF you lived in CCMD and you thought that DC and CCDC "had no right to exist" and you kept lobbing rockets across Western Avenue, hitting our houses, destroying our schools etc one day we would get fed up with it and fight back. That's what is happening in Israel. Hamas does not want peace. They want to annihilate Israel.

I think in actuality Israel wants to annihilate Palestine and all of there people. It is quite apparent by their actions-had they just kept the land they initially stole/got from the UN-and peacefully co-existed with the arabs (perhaps even helping them to prosper as well) there would be peace at least in that small sliver of the middle east. Instead, feeling superior, they want to control and oppress, take over and monopolize, ans become segregated and separatists. They are greedy and self righteous, and hypocrites going against everything in their Talmud and religion.

In 1948, Israel expressed hope to live at peace with her neighbors. Her neighbors responded by attacking. Israel won, resulting in the bounty boundaries pre-1967.
Are you suggesting Israel retreat to the UN lines, or the 1967 lines?

Not pp, but Israel should have never been created. You don't go and put a new country, where people are already living. Palestinians were not the cause of the Holocaust, and I think there's a lot of misplaced expectations & responsibility placed on them. I don't support Israel. I don't support a Jewish state. I support a single, secular state where people can live cohesively, together, in a democratic setting (which Israel is not - despite it's false claims).

Assuming a one-state solution is the right answer, how will you enforce a secular state, when the state will quickly be majority muslim? Based on the Jews experience in every other Muslim country, you are basically calling for the mass genocide of 7 million Jews.

Who is calling for the mass genocide of Jews? Were the Palestinians doing so? Where they calling for further genocide after WWII? Were the Muslims? No, they were not - they got along quite well, actually. There's a history and chain of events that you cannot ignore, and that political opposition to Israel may actually be justified - without calling for further Jewish genocide.

How do other secular democracies maintain their position? Can a one-state solution not follow a similar paradigm?

Name a single Muslim-majority secular democracy where Jews are allowed to live and practice their religion in peace.

Pre or post 48? You must understand that a lot of hostility is due to events following then - sentiments can't be disconnected. But Turkey's pretty tolerant.

Since the suggestion is to create a single secular state in 2014, lets see if we can find one now.

Turkey? Sounds like a great place to live for Jews.

"In the 2000s, despite surging antisemitism, including antisemitic incidents, aliyah remained low. In 2008, only 112 Turkish Jews immigrated, and in 2009, that number only rose to 250.[67] However, in the aftermath of the 2010 Gaza flotilla raid, antisemitism in Turkey increased and became more open, and it was reported that the community was also subjected to economic pressure. A boycott of Jewish businesses, especially textile businesses, took place, and Israeli tourists who had frequented the businesses of Turkish Jewish merchants largely stopped visiting Turkey. As a result, the number of Turkish Jews emigrating to Israel increased.[68] By September 2010, the Jewish population of Turkey had dropped to 17,000, from a previous population of 23,000[58] Currently, the Jewish community is feeling increasingly threatened by extremists. In addition to safety concerns, some Turkish Jews also emigrated to Israel to find a Jewish spouse due to the increasing difficulty of finding one in the small Turkish Jewish community. In 2012, it was reported that the number of Jews expressing interest in moving to Israel rose by 100%, a large number of Jewish business owners were seeking to relocate their businesses to Israel, and that hundreds were moving every year.[69]

In October 2013, it was reported that a mass exodus of Turkish Jews was underway. Reportedly, Turkish Jewish families are immigrating to Israel at the rate of one family per week on average, and hundreds of young Turkish Jews are also relocating to the United States and Europe.[70]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Turkey

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:That's a very limited perspective. Consider this perspective instead:

The combined Washington, DC and Chevy Chase, MD used to be your homeland. Some strangers came from Ashburn and kicked you out, forcing you to live as a refugee in CCMD. For 40 years, they occupied CCMD, restricting every aspect of your life. Even when the Ashburnists withdrew from CCMD, they controlled travel to and from CCMD, controlled imports and exports, controlled customs duties and generally turned CCMD into an open air prison. Then, imagine that CCMD holds an election for town council and when a party disliked by the Ashburnists wins, a trade embargo is implemented and political leaders are arrested and killed.

You might want to fire a rocket at some point as well.

Why do you insist on rewriting history?

[Anonymous]

THERE NEVER WAS A STATE OF PALESTINE! THE ONLY LOCALLY GOVERNED PRE-WWII NATION WAS THE ISRAELITES, PRE-ROMAN!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IF you lived in CCMD and you thought that DC and CCDC "had no right to exist" and you kept lobbing rockets across Western Avenue, hitting our houses, destroying our schools etc one day we would get fed up with it and fight back. That's what is happening in Israel. Hamas does not want peace. They want to annihilate Israel.

I think in actuality Israel wants to annihilate Palestine and all of there people. It is quite apparent by their actions-had they just kept the land they initially stole/got from the UN-and peacefully co-existed with the arabs (perhaps even helping them to prosper as well) there would be peace at least in that small sliver of the middle east. Instead, feeling superior, they want to control and oppress, take over and monopolize, ans become segregated and separatists. They are greedy and self righteous, and hypocrites going against everything in their Talmud and religion.

In 1948, Israel expressed hope to live at peace with her neighbors. Her neighbors responded by attacking. Israel won, resulting in the bounty boundaries pre-1967.
Are you suggesting Israel retreat to the UN lines, or the 1967 lines?

That's not exactly how it went down, is it? Israel didn't just redraw its boundaries. It threw out half a million non-Jews that lived within its new boundaries and promptly passed laws that voided their property rights.

One might call it a strike of genius - first I throw you out of your house, and then I say, if you were absent from your house the day after I threw you out, you no longer own this house.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Name a single Muslim-majority secular democracy where Jews are allowed to live and practice their religion in peace.

Not secular and not democracy, but hey, Iran.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IF you lived in CCMD and you thought that DC and CCDC "had no right to exist" and you kept lobbing rockets across Western Avenue, hitting our houses, destroying our schools etc one day we would get fed up with it and fight back. That's what is happening in Israel. Hamas does not want peace. They want to annihilate Israel.

I think in actuality Israel wants to annihilate Palestine and all of there people. It is quite apparent by their actions-had they just kept the land they initially stole/got from the UN-and peacefully co-existed with the arabs (perhaps even helping them to prosper as well) there would be peace at least in that small sliver of the middle east. Instead, feeling superior, they want to control and oppress, take over and monopolize, ans become segregated and separatists. They are greedy and self righteous, and hypocrites going against everything in their Talmud and religion.

In 1948, Israel expressed hope to live at peace with her neighbors. Her neighbors responded by attacking. Israel won, resulting in the bounty boundaries pre-1967.
Are you suggesting Israel retreat to the UN lines, or the 1967 lines?

Not pp, but Israel should have never been created. You don't go and put a new country, where people are already living. Palestinians were not the cause of the Holocaust, and I think there's a lot of misplaced expectations & responsibility placed on them. I don't support Israel. I don't support a Jewish state. I support a single, secular state where people can live cohesively, together, in a democratic setting (which Israel is not - despite it's false claims).

Assuming a one-state solution is the right answer, how will you enforce a secular state, when the state will quickly be majority muslim? Based on the Jews experience in every other Muslim country, you are basically calling for the mass genocide of 7 million Jews.

Who is calling for the mass genocide of Jews? Were the Palestinians doing so? Where they calling for further genocide after WWII? Were the Muslims? No, they were not - they got along quite well, actually. There's a history and chain of events that you cannot ignore, and that political opposition to Israel may actually be justified - without calling for further Jewish genocide.

How do other secular democracies maintain their position? Can a one-state solution not follow a similar paradigm?

Name a single Muslim-majority secular democracy where Jews are allowed to live and practice their religion in peace.

Pre or post 48? You must understand that a lot of hostility is due to events following then - sentiments can't be disconnected. But Turkey's pretty tolerant.

Since the suggestion is to create a single secular state in 2014, lets see if we can find one now.

Turkey? Sounds like a great place to live for Jews.

"In the 2000s, despite surging antisemitism, including antisemitic incidents, aliyah remained low. In 2008, only 112 Turkish Jews immigrated, and in 2009, that number only rose to 250.[67] However, in the aftermath of the 2010 Gaza flotilla raid, antisemitism in Turkey increased and became more open, and it was reported that the community was also subjected to economic pressure. A boycott of Jewish businesses, especially textile businesses, took place, and Israeli tourists who had frequented the businesses of Turkish Jewish merchants largely stopped visiting Turkey. As a result, the number of Turkish Jews emigrating to Israel increased.[68] By September 2010, the Jewish population of Turkey had dropped to 17,000, from a previous population of 23,000[58] Currently, the Jewish community is feeling increasingly threatened by extremists. In addition to safety concerns, some Turkish Jews also emigrated to Israel to find a Jewish spouse due to the increasing difficulty of finding one in the small Turkish Jewish community. In 2012, it was reported that the number of Jews expressing interest in moving to Israel rose by 100%, a large number of Jewish business owners were seeking to relocate their businesses to Israel, and that hundreds were moving every year.[69]

In October 2013, it was reported that a mass exodus of Turkish Jews was underway. Reportedly, Turkish Jewish families are immigrating to Israel at the rate of one family per week on average, and hundreds of young Turkish Jews are also relocating to the United States and Europe.[70]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Turkey

That is kind of an exaggeration, and rather out of context given the whackjob that is Erdogan in the last couple of years. You also fail to mention that a decline in Jewish population in Turkey is also due in no small part to birthrates [Between September and April 2011, for example, 129 Turkish Jews died and only 60 were born.[61]].

You can't remove contemporary Mid East sentiments about Israel and Zionism, without historical context. Nothing happens in a vacuum - including this current rise in tension.

That said, I wonder if an agreement could be made with key Mid East players vowing for a more hospitable relationship with their Jewish citizens, with the encouragement of a single-state secular democracy. The hostile feelings are unquestionably intertwined, and obviously this is massively ideal - but if a regional agreement could be brokered out, it could be revolutionary for the region. There's so much misplaced anger - Israel against Arabs and Palestinians, who weren't the cause of violence against them in WWII. And Arabs against Jews, when it was really the Brits that royally effed up.

[Anonymous]

You underestimate the ant-Semitism (yes I know arabs are "semites" too, but you know what I mean) that underscores all of this. Also, the surrounding Arab nations have no interest in placating the Jews/Israelis or supporting the Palestinians, unless they are in a position to kill Jews (i.e. supplying them with missiles).

Also, there is no universe in which the Jews could be forced to trust Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, etc. to be "less hostile" (and I notice you didnt even require them to be not hostile or friendly) provided they give up the only truly safe place for Jews in the entire world. And if you think I am exagerrating, you need to look no further than the intense increase in anti-Semitic attacks in Europe and even in the US (which is currently safe, but thats what they thought in 1920's Germany as well).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:That's a very limited perspective. Consider this perspective instead:

The combined Washington, DC and Chevy Chase, MD used to be your homeland. Some strangers came from Ashburn and kicked you out, forcing you to live as a refugee in CCMD. For 40 years, they occupied CCMD, restricting every aspect of your life. Even when the Ashburnists withdrew from CCMD, they controlled travel to and from CCMD, controlled imports and exports, controlled customs duties and generally turned CCMD into an open air prison. Then, imagine that CCMD holds an election for town council and when a party disliked by the Ashburnists wins, a trade embargo is implemented and political leaders are arrested and killed.

You might want to fire a rocket at some point as well.

Why do you insist on rewriting history?

If that's re-writing history, then perhaps you should take a stab at modifying the example for the edification of the rest of us. Just saying it's revisionism without explaining why and what it ought to say does your position no good.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes Jeff +1. Also Muslima is right - people forget or here in the US they just don't know.

Hi Muslima!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:THERE NEVER WAS A STATE OF PALESTINE! THE ONLY LOCALLY GOVERNED PRE-WWII NATION WAS THE ISRAELITES, PRE-ROMAN!

Why is this point important?

There wasn't a locally governed Palestinian state pre WWII. So what? There were Palestinians LIVING there, under British rule, and before then, under the Ottoman Turks. They had lived there for a very very long time.

Many people in Europe didn't see themselves as being a "nation" or "Nation-state" until the mid 1800s or even later. In Arab countries this concept came even later as they fought against British rule.

Whether the Palestinians were organized as a nation state or simply operating in smaller groups under British rule doesn't matter. They were living there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:IF you lived in CCMD and you thought that DC and CCDC "had no right to exist" and you kept lobbing rockets across Western Avenue, hitting our houses, destroying our schools etc one day we would get fed up with it and fight back. That's what is happening in Israel. Hamas does not want peace. They want to annihilate Israel.

Seriously, in your analogy, Chevy Chase is Gaza?

[Muslima]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes Jeff +1. Also Muslima is right - people forget or here in the US they just don't know.

Hi Muslima!

Hi Anonymous