The case for "low rigor" at highly competitive private lower schools?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, that is absolutely not true about kids coming from advanced academic programs in NoVA and MoCo. Many if these kids score 97-100% on their SSATs to get into private schools and have very well rounded experience in language arts, PowerPoint, making presentations. Yes there are probably some kids accepted from less rigorous public schools but those aren't the whole picture. And those kids catch up fast.

That may be true in your experience - I don't know the statistics. I am only letting the OP know my own experience and the discussions I've had with parents of public school kids who start in 9th grade at my kids' school. The parents regularly lament that their kids are behind in writing and analytical skills and need additional help because they simply were not taught that well in these areas. Also, being able to get a good grade on a test like the SSAT does not necessarily indicate whether that kid would be able to write a comprehensive piece arguing a point of view. And, maybe the point about the presentations is true. Public school kids are required to give presentations - I'll give you that. However, the writing and analysis part is quite accurate. I'm sorry, but I've read the work coming from the kids' of my friends who are in public school and it doesn't come nearly close to my DD's ability to write a great piece - and she's simply an average student in her English class. Why do you think all colleges have Freshman Writing Seminars? It's because the average American kid going to a public school doesn't get very good, consistent instruction in writing. It hurts to hear and I certainly hope things get better, but it is cause for concern.

Why are you reading the school assignments of your friends kids? That seems really unusual. I don't even read the high school assignments of my own kid - it's his work to do, not mine. I can't imaging sending his work to other parents for review. How many of these assignments are you reading and what's the context that this would come up?

I tutor kids and happen to help out some of the kids of friends.

So your sample is based on kids who are having enough difficulties that their parents feel the need to hire a tutor. Perhaps that's not a representative sample?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP - I have to disagree with your statements from my own experience. The kids entering my kids' private school in 9th grade from public school are more often than not at a disadvantage in some areas. They may be right on level for math and science, but almost uniformly are very behind in their writing and analytical skills. In addition, they are at a complete loss as to how to make a presentation, which inevitably requires these skills and is required on practically a weekly basis in my kids' school. These are skills which take more time to learn and are harder to develop and which simply does not happen at an early age in public schools.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get from your post, especially since you're committed to sending your to private next year. Do you need advice on what to say as a comeback to people who question your choices? You need to know that people will always question your decisions, but you don't need to listen to them. We should all do what is best for our own families and not worry about what others will think…it's gets you and your kids no where.

And yet my two children in public school started routinely making presentations in first grade.

+2 at DCPS

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I want to engage in the intellectual debate but just can't get past "blessed buttercup"!

+1

[Anonymous]

Interesting... I teach in public school and have a DC in private school. There is a difference in math curriculum -- but if you follow the scope and sequence most kids end up in the same place by 8th grade, it's just a different path. There is more differentiation and acceleration in some public schools and more extension and enrichment in some private schools. So.. kids may move through curriculum "faster" in public, especially in the elementary years, but frequently the kids from privates who moved more slowly and gained deeper understanding are ready to move more quickly when they get to higher level concepts.

It also really depends on the teacher and the student. Some students will excel regardless and some teachers are truly amazing-- at both publics and privates.

The common core has MD public schools (MoCo in particular) really examining their practice of accelerating math at early levels. Only a small percentage of students will now be able to take a compacted math class in 4th and 5th grade (so they will take 4th - 6th grade math in two years and start 7th grade math in 6th grade). In years past they accelerated earlier and farther, but this is technically not an option any more.

[Anonymous]

OP here, pushing the thread off in a bit of a different direction.

How do the private schools establish curricular standards? I assume in the public system there is a committee of government-appointed bureaucrats which dictates textbooks/lesson plans/topics (though presumably schools vary in how they implement this).

At the private schools, I think there are visiting committees of teachers from other private schools who review curriculum. But, is parental feedback sought in a meaningful way? Can I ask someone in the lower school for a copy of the most recent report on the curriculum review for topics (without labeling myself a PITA)?

Clearly we could have researched all this last year before applying, but we only decided to apply in December so focused mainly on answering the essay questions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here, pushing the thread off in a bit of a different direction.

How do the private schools establish curricular standards? I assume in the public system there is a committee of government-appointed bureaucrats which dictates textbooks/lesson plans/topics (though presumably schools vary in how they implement this).

At the private schools, I think there are visiting committees of teachers from other private schools who review curriculum. But, is parental feedback sought in a meaningful way? Can I ask someone in the lower school for a copy of the most recent report on the curriculum review for topics (without labeling myself a PITA)?

Clearly we could have researched all this last year before applying, but we only decided to apply in December so focused mainly on answering the essay questions.

I'm certainly no expert about this part, but I believe most independents develop and review their curriculum within the school - with the teachers and administrators working together. They develop the broad goals and then teacher teams will work to determine the details. They will also determine the textbooks and resources that are needed to reach those goals. In addition, each school is required to renew it's membership in the various school associations to which they are accredited. Most schools belong to several different accrediting organizations. I believe this is the process you are describing where other teachers come to the school and review. These take place on a regular calendar basis (often every 5 years). Before this review the school needs to go through a very lengthy process of self-review. Recommendations and suggestions are then made on the part of the accrediting body.

As for parental feedback, you can certainly give your opinion (at least at my kids' school you can…not sure about other places). However, I believe that parents need to remember that they have chosen the school for a reason and trusted that the professionals at this school are knowledgeable about the best practices. You do not indicate whether you are in the education field, but to be blunt, unless you are a teacher/administrator it is wise to listen to the professionals. I get frustrated when parents who are not in the education field at all start demanding changes developed by professionals - it comes across as a bit of slap in the face to the people who do this for a living. This doesn't mean that you shouldn't feel like you can voice your opinions/concerns, but you cannot go into expecting to get your way. You need to listen and work with the teacher/administrator to get the best outcome for your child (or all the children if it is a larger issue). Of course, if there are issues with your child personally then you should always feel like you can reach out to the teachers and administration for guidance, etc. Also, hopefully the school you chose has a good PTA which has a good and healthy relationship with the administration. Working together for the common goal of our kids always makes things run smoother.

Also, most schools have their full curriculum on their website and you can easily review it. You may need to search the website a bit to find it, but I bet it's there. If you cannot find then I would reach out to the Admissions Office since you are still new.

It sounds like your decision to move to private was made a bit quickly since it seems that you did not fully research the school you have chosen and are now questioning the decision. I certainly understand the anxiety that comes with any new change - especially where our kids are concerned. But, if you chose a good, well-known school then you should be fine. Also, remember that if it doesn't turn out to be the best fit for your child and your family - you can always change your mind after next year. Don't view it as a prison and don't stay if it's not right - there are always other options.

[Anonymous]

Beauvoir is not at all rigorous. We had one there, and one at another, so speaking first hand, I would say that is true. They believe that pushing young kids really hard academically pays no dividend, as opposed to focussing on the socialization and love of learning for its own sake. On the other hand, they get to STA and NCS, and they are not as ready as the other kids, but they do catch up fast. I believe a very disproportionate number of the NMSF at NCS and STA are ex Beauvoir.

I don't have an opinion on who is right, although I think they could push the kids harder than they do. The 'product' at the back end (12th grade) is good. Of our personal experience in 4 schools, I would say Beauvoir is the least demanding, and STA the most demanding. The other two privates were in the middle.

There is dueling science on both sides, and I don't believe either side has made a compelling case one way or the other.

Whatever works for your Buttercup.

[Anonymous]

OP, we are leaving a fun private to be pummeled in public this year. I would not change a thing, dd was happy, and will continue to be happy. Could the private school have done maybe 15% more? Oh, YES! So, not defending private but the atmosphere was great.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Their parents can't stand the thought of seeing them fail, especially when they are paying all this money?

You certainly read a lot into a parent's choice about where to send her kid to school. That was perhaps the farthest thing from my mind when we chose a school. My parents very intentionally sent me to a low rigor school, because they believed I would have decades upon decades to learn and work in high rigor environments, and they wanted me to have time to become grounded in a more relaxed space. I switched to a very high rigor school for high school, and within months caught up with the kids who had been doing large quantities of homework for years. I'm glad I got to spend much more time riding my bike, playing in he woods with friends, and playing with my cat. For me, that was much more important. I eventually wen to both college and law school at ivy league schools, and have never suffered any ill consequences from having missed out on 4th grade homework!

[Anonymous]

PLease don't push your child to learn at the next higher level. Encourage your child to love to learn.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PLease don't push your child to learn at the next higher level. Encourage your child to love to learn.

+100

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP you are also incorrect - in the advanced academic programs in NoVA and MoCo, the standardized tests are an afterthought. It's pretty easy for those kids to learn enough to pass the tests in about one week of class time (really - that's about the max amount of time they spend on test materials). The math is more advanced than the norm in private school around here (except for just a few kids and Holton has started an advanced math track for lower school ... to be the same as the public school track). The English, History, and Science classes are very detailed and include writing papers and making presentations. What is missing is a lot of hand-holding, free-flowing class discussion time (kids have to learn to speak clearly and quickly), etc. We have one in public and one in private, so can see this stuff clearly. There are many other threads on this with consensus from more than just my opinion ... enriched public (AAP or advanced programs) are stronger IF your child is a self-starter, not intimidated by 25-30 other kids in a class, a 22-minute lunch period, lots of work, having to make your own way a lot of the time. And that is true through high school (e.g., Blair, TJ, etc.) If your child responds better to smaller classes, would rather have more time to do art than math/science, tends to sit in the back and doodle if not called on regularly in class, then private school is the way to go. But it's not more rigorous.

I'm so sorry your private school child is such a milk-toast simpleton who needs so much hand-holding and spends all his time "doodling."

PP, do you mean milquetoast? Even then, I'm not sure it means what you think it means...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP you are also incorrect - in the advanced academic programs in NoVA and MoCo, the standardized tests are an afterthought. It's pretty easy for those kids to learn enough to pass the tests in about one week of class time (really - that's about the max amount of time they spend on test materials). The math is more advanced than the norm in private school around here (except for just a few kids and Holton has started an advanced math track for lower school ... to be the same as the public school track). The English, History, and Science classes are very detailed and include writing papers and making presentations. What is missing is a lot of hand-holding, free-flowing class discussion time (kids have to learn to speak clearly and quickly), etc. We have one in public and one in private, so can see this stuff clearly. There are many other threads on this with consensus from more than just my opinion ... enriched public (AAP or advanced programs) are stronger IF your child is a self-starter, not intimidated by 25-30 other kids in a class, a 22-minute lunch period, lots of work, having to make your own way a lot of the time. And that is true through high school (e.g., Blair, TJ, etc.) If your child responds better to smaller classes, would rather have more time to do art than math/science, tends to sit in the back and doodle if not called on regularly in class, then private school is the way to go. But it's not more rigorous.

I'm so sorry your private school child is such a milk-toast simpleton who needs so much hand-holding and spends all his time "doodling."

It's actually spelled "milque" toast, after Caspar Milquetoast. If you are going to needlessly insult other peoples' children you might bother to at least spell your insults correctly.
signed, not PP - but someone who'd love her kids to have the right amount of hand-holding, for christ sake