Oak View and New Hampshire Estates- separating into two different schools?

[Anonymous]

The question assumes that anything MCPS does makes sense. Presumably moving special programs around involves a whole extra layer of political infighting.

Anonymous wrote:Why do they keep the HGC there if they are trying to get kids out of Oak View? I dislike that the HGC is split with Pine Crest and I've heard that Pine Crest now has room for all HGC classes.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What were the motives/interests of the cluster coordinators? It seems like their opposition may have hurt the case of the local communities.

It does seem that way, doesn't it? Money spent at OV and NHE can't be spent elsewhere, and a change to the status quo will require money. In my opinion, it's all very political and has a lot more to do with vying for limited resources than what's actually best for the children and communities. By pointing to the cluster coordinators' views, the Superintendent's recommendation creates the false impression that there isn't a consensus. But there is a consensus. Just look at the PTA vote. Only 7 members voted to maintain the pairing. 7. More than 70 members voted to unpair the schools. There is probably never unanimity when it comes to tricky issues, but here there is at least a basic consensus.

Hopefully the BOE will take a critical look at Dr. Starr's recommendation and vote in favor of unpairing the schools.

I really hope so. Is there precedent for the BOE voting against the superintendent's recommendations?

Interesting question. I can't imagine it's never happened. And I don't think Dr. Starr made adoption of his recommendation particularly easy. It's almost like it was written before the numbers were in, and under an assumption that the communities and PTA would be divided on the issue, which they're not.

For starters, it's kind of painful to read through the analysis of why he thinks the pairing is supportable on the basis of diversity, especially if you've followed how he treats this issue when he's dealing with schools in the green zone! The numbers are facts and no amount of twisting those facts can change the reality that pairing two high-poverty high-minority school zones does not result in diversity for anyone. Why on earth would you pair the two poorest elementary schools in the Blair cluster to achieve diversity? The answer is that you wouldn't, and I suspect the BOE is smart enough to understand that.

Another problem with Dr. Starr's report is that he finally gave up the ghost about why MCPS wishes to maintain this pairing. The truth is that MCPS relies on this pairing to funnel most of the Oak View kids into just about any school other than the schools they're assigned to. Currently almost 100 students from Oak View are attending schools other than NHE or OV through a COSA. Dr. Starr's recommendation recognizes that having a neighborhood school is something that would likely bring the COSA students back to their local school, and this would create capacity problems that he does not wish to address. In just a few sentences, Dr. Starr's recommendation writes off the kids from Oak View as a capacity nuisance. Honestly, this is one of the things that makes me think Dr. Starr didn't contribute much to the report and perhaps over-delegated and simply signed off on something prematurely. Because if that's what's really going on here, it's probably not the kind of thing he should admit. Hopefully the BOE will agree that this is a pretty outrageous and offensive way to defend the status quo.

[Anonymous]

Pine Crest does not have room for more classes. They installed new portables over the summer; there are now four classes in portables. (Two fourth grade, two fifth grade-- neither HGC. My kid is in one of them; do you think they would ever put HGC kids in a portable? humph.)

[Anonymous]

Why is it only in the DCC that the HGC is split? Is it to help the demographics at the schools?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why is it only in the DCC that the HGC is split? Is it to help the demographics at the schools?

Several years ago they expanded from two Center classes to three, but Pine Crest (where the Center program has always been located) did not have space for a third classroom. So it was added to Oak View for fourth grade. The following year Oak View added the fifth grade classroom for those Center kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is it only in the DCC that the HGC is split? Is it to help the demographics at the schools?

Several years ago they expanded from two Center classes to three, but Pine Crest (where the Center program has always been located) did not have space for a third classroom. So it was added to Oak View for fourth grade. The following year Oak View added the fifth grade classroom for those Center kids.

I know but it's not very equal compared to other parts of the county where all of the center is in one school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is it only in the DCC that the HGC is split? Is it to help the demographics at the schools?

Several years ago they expanded from two Center classes to three, but Pine Crest (where the Center program has always been located) did not have space for a third classroom. So it was added to Oak View for fourth grade. The following year Oak View added the fifth grade classroom for those Center kids.

I know but it's not very equal compared to other parts of the county where all of the center is in one school.

Why does it matter?

[Anonymous]

It matters because 1). The kids at Oak Vire have a much smaller group of kids (for example, at Pine Crest the two 4th grades do things together- more opportunity to develop friendships) and 2) they are less likely to know kids from their home school (I know people who turned down Oak view because the child knew no one but knew several kids going to Pine Crest.) With only one class per grade the Oak View students do not have the same opportunities as kids at Barnsley or other bigger centers.

[Anonymous]

13:30 there's another side to the HGC issue you raise. My child is thriving in the small, warm environment at Oak View. I couldn't ask for a better place to help him blossom. Am happier with Oak View as a school than Pine Crest overall. Not all children need the largeness of three classrooms in one school. He knew few kids coming in as most HGC classmates got into Pine Crest. That hasn't mattered one bit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:13:30 there's another side to the HGC issue you raise. My child is thriving in the small, warm environment at Oak View. I couldn't ask for a better place to help him blossom. Am happier with Oak View as a school than Pine Crest overall. Not all children need the largeness of three classrooms in one school. He knew few kids coming in as most HGC classmates got into Pine Crest. That hasn't mattered one bit.

+1

My son thrived in the family atmosphere at Oak View. He LOVED his teachers there, esp Mr. B. In fifth grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:13:30 there's another side to the HGC issue you raise. My child is thriving in the small, warm environment at Oak View. I couldn't ask for a better place to help him blossom. Am happier with Oak View as a school than Pine Crest overall. Not all children need the largeness of three classrooms in one school. He knew few kids coming in as most HGC classmates got into Pine Crest. That hasn't mattered one bit.

Why are you happier with Oak View than Pine Crest? Please tell me the good things about Oak View that I may be missing.

[Anonymous]

Great HGC teachers. Terrific attitude about homework and kids being kids (even if they are smart). Vibe of the school is really geared towards citizenship and taking pride in progress (rewards for learning to type, dragon prizes, etc.) Principal who is easy to respect and like. (Principals really set the tone for a school, as far as I'm concerned.)

I can tell you that child left previous school saying he wasn't interested in playing an instrument and with very few friends, came to Oak View and was inspired by music teacher to try an instrument that he now loves. And he tells me kids he plays with on the playground. So, inspiration comes beyond the classroom. Similarly, computer specialist/teacher actually have him interested in learning to type properly, whereas I've never been able to inspire him to learn this. Stability of being with the same kids for two years means that he feels more comfortable making friends, and is making them. Maybe not good for an uber-social kid, but is really fantastic for mine.

Older child got into Pine Crest in a previous HGC year and we turned it down after visiting. Had a completely different feel from principal back then. Really off-putting and not as kid-centric as Oak View feels. Sensed some tension from principal between competing demands for HGC and general school. Friends with kids at Pine Crest reported extremely heavy amounts of homework, very strict 4th grade teacher (who people like, but your kid really needs to be able to handle a super strict teacher.) Different buildings, different vibes. Each is good for kids, but some are a better fit than others. Really feel like we hit the lottery getting Oak View.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:One of the really weird things about his decision is that, to support it, he expresses concern that all of the students who currently COSA-out of the schools might decide to actually come back and attend if they had a neighborhood school, creating a capacity problem that MCPS would be forced to address. So basically the real utility of the pairing to MCPS isn't that it fosters diversity, but rather that it is so reliably and consistently unattractive to so many families that Starr can count on them not to attend. And voila! Capacity problem in densely populated corner of Silver Spring is kept at bay indefinitely. The whole point of the pairing was to blend poor and middle class students to give all kids access to a diverse learning environment, and now they're declaring it a success because it so effectively prevents middle class students from enrolling in these otherwise perfectly fine schools. If a public school system is deliberately implementing policies whose purpose is to repel middle class families from schools in poor neighborhoods as a capacity-control tool, and the school system invokes diversity purely as a pretext to support the practice, is that even legal?

On one hand, I agree with your points. On the other, there's a disturbing trend (and it's happened in my nieghborhood) to unpair and/or reboundary schools to in effect isolate FARMS / low income kids. This may make middle class and wealthier families happy, but it creates an island for those who are left with a school with a high FARMS rate and - in the case of the school in my nieghborhood - very low test scores. I get the arguments for the other side, but as someone who is now left with a school where approximately 70% of the kids are on FARMS (as opposed to 45% seven years ago), this is a serious concern.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One of the really weird things about his decision is that, to support it, he expresses concern that all of the students who currently COSA-out of the schools might decide to actually come back and attend if they had a neighborhood school, creating a capacity problem that MCPS would be forced to address. So basically the real utility of the pairing to MCPS isn't that it fosters diversity, but rather that it is so reliably and consistently unattractive to so many families that Starr can count on them not to attend. And voila! Capacity problem in densely populated corner of Silver Spring is kept at bay indefinitely. The whole point of the pairing was to blend poor and middle class students to give all kids access to a diverse learning environment, and now they're declaring it a success because it so effectively prevents middle class students from enrolling in these otherwise perfectly fine schools. If a public school system is deliberately implementing policies whose purpose is to repel middle class families from schools in poor neighborhoods as a capacity-control tool, and the school system invokes diversity purely as a pretext to support the practice, is that even legal?

On one hand, I agree with your points. On the other, there's a disturbing trend (and it's happened in my nieghborhood) to unpair and/or reboundary schools to in effect isolate FARMS / low income kids. This may make middle class and wealthier families happy, but it creates an island for those who are left with a school with a high FARMS rate and - in the case of the school in my nieghborhood - very low test scores. I get the arguments for the other side, but as someone who is now left with a school where approximately 70% of the kids are on FARMS (as opposed to 45% seven years ago), this is a serious concern.

The "isolated island" concern just doesn't fit well as a justification for the NHE and OV pairing because BOTH schools, without any pairing, have exceptionally high poverty rates. Unpaired, the in-zone kids of OV have a FARMS rate of 77%, yet MCPS is treating OV as the affluent side of the pairing, intended to offer more middle class interaction with the kids from NHE. If you're going to try to prevent isolation of poverty at a school like NHE that has a FARMS rate >90%, paired or unpaired, you need to try to link it in with a more affluent school than OV. These are the two poorest schools in the Blair Cluster. It seems pretty obvious that by pairing them together, it is the other neighboring schools who are experiencing the upside of the pairing, not NHE and OV. I agree that MCPS should be doing its best to prevent poverty from being consolidated at just a few schools. And it's pretty easy to look around at neighboring schools in Silver Spring and realize that's exactly what's happening to BOTH NHE and OV due to this pairing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One of the really weird things about his decision is that, to support it, he expresses concern that all of the students who currently COSA-out of the schools might decide to actually come back and attend if they had a neighborhood school, creating a capacity problem that MCPS would be forced to address. So basically the real utility of the pairing to MCPS isn't that it fosters diversity, but rather that it is so reliably and consistently unattractive to so many families that Starr can count on them not to attend. And voila! Capacity problem in densely populated corner of Silver Spring is kept at bay indefinitely. The whole point of the pairing was to blend poor and middle class students to give all kids access to a diverse learning environment, and now they're declaring it a success because it so effectively prevents middle class students from enrolling in these otherwise perfectly fine schools. If a public school system is deliberately implementing policies whose purpose is to repel middle class families from schools in poor neighborhoods as a capacity-control tool, and the school system invokes diversity purely as a pretext to support the practice, is that even legal?

On one hand, I agree with your points. On the other, there's a disturbing trend (and it's happened in my nieghborhood) to unpair and/or reboundary schools to in effect isolate FARMS / low income kids. This may make middle class and wealthier families happy, but it creates an island for those who are left with a school with a high FARMS rate and - in the case of the school in my nieghborhood - very low test scores. I get the arguments for the other side, but as someone who is now left with a school where approximately 70% of the kids are on FARMS (as opposed to 45% seven years ago), this is a serious concern.

The "isolated island" concern just doesn't fit well as a justification for the NHE and OV pairing because BOTH schools, without any pairing, have exceptionally high poverty rates. Unpaired, the in-zone kids of OV have a FARMS rate of 77%, yet MCPS is treating OV as the affluent side of the pairing, intended to offer more middle class interaction with the kids from NHE. If you're going to try to prevent isolation of poverty at a school like NHE that has a FARMS rate >90%, paired or unpaired, you need to try to link it in with a more affluent school than OV. These are the two poorest schools in the Blair Cluster. It seems pretty obvious that by pairing them together, it is the other neighboring schools who are experiencing the upside of the pairing, not NHE and OV. I agree that MCPS should be doing its best to prevent poverty from being consolidated at just a few schools. And it's pretty easy to look around at neighboring schools in Silver Spring and realize that's exactly what's happening to BOTH NHE and OV due to this pairing.

PP here. Thank you for the additional information and context. The situation is discouraging and it seems that this is a growing trend in MCPS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Great HGC teachers. Terrific attitude about homework and kids being kids (even if they are smart). Vibe of the school is really geared towards citizenship and taking pride in progress (rewards for learning to type, dragon prizes, etc.) Principal who is easy to respect and like. (Principals really set the tone for a school, as far as I'm concerned.)

I can tell you that child left previous school saying he wasn't interested in playing an instrument and with very few friends, came to Oak View and was inspired by music teacher to try an instrument that he now loves. And he tells me kids he plays with on the playground. So, inspiration comes beyond the classroom. Similarly, computer specialist/teacher actually have him interested in learning to type properly, whereas I've never been able to inspire him to learn this. Stability of being with the same kids for two years means that he feels more comfortable making friends, and is making them. Maybe not good for an uber-social kid, but is really fantastic for mine.

Older child got into Pine Crest in a previous HGC year and we turned it down after visiting. Had a completely different feel from principal back then. Really off-putting and not as kid-centric as Oak View feels. Sensed some tension from principal between competing demands for HGC and general school. Friends with kids at Pine Crest reported extremely heavy amounts of homework, very strict 4th grade teacher (who people like, but your kid really needs to be able to handle a super strict teacher.) Different buildings, different vibes. Each is good for kids, but some are a better fit than others. Really feel like we hit the lottery getting Oak View.

I've heard that one of the pine crest teachers is super strict but the others aren't. Does your child like the math teacher and the computer teacher? Mine thinks they are very strict. And that the assistant princip and others are very strict. The main teachers do seem very good. And we also like the principal.