Proof of heaven

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If there is a heaven, why so much mystery? Why would a God not just let us all know that it truly exists by showing us. Perhaps we would all be better behaved if we could actually know that it exists and not have to rely on numerous interpretations and blind faith.

The challenge is, is that there are perhaps hundreds of different interpretations of what an afterlife is. Would you accept an ancient Egyptian mythology version over a Biblical mythology version? If they all say they're right and true, which interpretation is truly "right," and WHY would it be considered more "right?"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When you're about to die, there is a surge of hormones in the brain. It's like the body's natural, evolutionary shut-down mechanism to make death more "pleasant." Occasionally, someone makes it back from that surge.

It's kind of uncanny how people's near-death experiences are conditioned by their own belief systems and cultures - rarely (never?) is it polytheistic, and feature a more vengeful deity.

Well, his visions were not of Jesus or heaven and hell. BUT of higher beings, being very close to God, but not seeing it - feeling it, higher level dimensions, telepathy. The messages he got were
1. You're loved
2. You have nothing to fear; and
3. There is nothing you can do wrong

These are not messages supported by the major religions who advocate fear of God, fear of judgement and punishment, guilt of being sinful.

this is true. I read Eben Alexander's book and this is the message he received. But he does describe a grinding, metallic sounding murky muddle "hell" without calling it that. And a fear that he was being dragged down into it. And that people were being required to make the awful metallic grinding noises down below him.

He also said he had no "history" and memory of what he had been on earth and also no sense of time. When he was ultimately pulled out of the murk he saw and heard angels but didn't use that word and they were nothing like the angels we think of when we use this term. He also saw animals, which pleased me, because I've always hoped my pets would be in heaven.

He also saw faces coming out of the mud at him. Then they would sink back into the mud. Only after "returning" did he realize that those faces were those people of all faiths praying for him, including a non-Christian psychic. So his take away was that prayer for the sick does reach heaven in some form.

I had two NDEs - I went to a wonderful, nice warm place and didn't want to return. But they were short and nothing like Dr. Alexander's.

Dr. Alexander's other message was that after death we realize that we are just one spot in a wonderful universe of many other planets and lifeforms - but that we are still important.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If there is a heaven, why so much mystery? Why would a God not just let us all know that it truly exists by showing us. Perhaps we would all be better behaved if we could actually know that it exists and not have to rely on numerous interpretations and blind faith.

God does show us. There are miracles people see and experience every day that tell us there is no other way that could happen except with God's help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Perhaps I will be the lone voice of dissent, but I did not like the book. Nothing about it came anywhere near close to convincing me this man's experience was "real."

To me the fact that a doctor, a Harvard doctor, a scientist wrote this book is proof in itself. It's a very brave thing to do because you're putting your reputation on the line - your peers are most likely to be very skeptical and will never look at you the same way again. Only a person who truly believes would risk his career just like that.

I went to Harvard. From personal experience, that label doesn't mean much in terms of intelligence or legitimacy. Plenty of people with a Harvard background do all kinds of things for gain - financial, to be a contrarian, or otherwise.

true. I went to Harvard Law. But I "bought" his story. You really have to read the book to understand. And he does not come back as a preachy Christian although he does say when asked if he wanted to participate in communion in his episcopal church after his experience that he came forward with tears running down his face. That's as close he comes to being a "believer" after the fact. He's careful not to use any terms that one would associate with a Jewish afterlife (if any), Mormonism (althought here are tiers to heaven), Christianity (altho for him it was to be a glorious experience), or a Catholic hell, but he does describe the mud, the faces, and the grinding noises that frighten him He just describes what he experienced. Even if you don't "buy it", it's an interesting read.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If there is a heaven, why so much mystery? Why would a God not just let us all know that it truly exists by showing us. Perhaps we would all be better behaved if we could actually know that it exists and not have to rely on numerous interpretations and blind faith.

God does show us. There are miracles people see and experience every day that tell us there is no other way that could happen except with God's help.

Which god are you talking about? Isis? Amenhotep? Zoraster? Ahura Mazda? Prometheus Osiris? Allah? Anat? Zeus? Quetzalcoatl? Hera? Mazu? Baal? Brahma? Jah? Enki? Tefnut? Cybele? Gaia? Mami Wata? Lilith? Or any of the other thousands of gods?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Yet somehow, people with a same religious tradition disagree strongly on many facets of their faith. Religion is what people make of it and how they personally choose to apply/interpret it - religion in practice has very little to do with literal word.

It's hard to interpret black for white. Christianity teaches you that you'll go to hell for bad deeds and you should work on improving yourself and your actions while the message in the book is unconditional love, "there is nothing to fear, there's nothing you can do wrong". These are quite opposite messages.

That is NOT what Christianity teaches.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Slightly OT but kind of relevant. Doesn't the fact that we exist at all just blow your mind? For me that was one of the driving forces in investigating the existence of higher power - in my case God/Jesus. I really find it amazing that people dismiss God outright without any attempt at finding out if He exists.

How do you suggest we go about this?

Have you ever tried just asking Him? Just saying , "God, if you're really there please show me", then see what happens.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Slightly OT but kind of relevant. Doesn't the fact that we exist at all just blow your mind? For me that was one of the driving forces in investigating the existence of higher power - in my case God/Jesus. I really find it amazing that people dismiss God outright without any attempt at finding out if He exists.

This is a myth about atheists. The atheists I know were all raised in religious homes and spent a good portion of their lives thinking about God and looking for God. They finally came to the conclusion that God isn't there.

I'm sorry because I know I am diverting this thread but I find this interesting, as most atheists I know were not raised in religious homes. I think there is no one path to atheism just as there is no one path to the mystery that we call God.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Yet somehow, people with a same religious tradition disagree strongly on many facets of their faith. Religion is what people make of it and how they personally choose to apply/interpret it - religion in practice has very little to do with literal word.

It's hard to interpret black for white. Christianity teaches you that you'll go to hell for bad deeds and you should work on improving yourself and your actions while the message in the book is unconditional love, "there is nothing to fear, there's nothing you can do wrong". These are quite opposite messages.

I'm not a Christian in the accepted sense of the word, but I don't believe that true Christianity teaches this. Not at all. The Christianity I *could* believe in is of the Marcus J. Borg variety.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Slightly OT but kind of relevant. Doesn't the fact that we exist at all just blow your mind? For me that was one of the driving forces in investigating the existence of higher power - in my case God/Jesus. I really find it amazing that people dismiss God outright without any attempt at finding out if He exists.

How do you suggest we go about this?

Have you ever tried just asking Him? Just saying , "God, if you're really there please show me", then see what happens.

I did when I saw your post. Still waiting. Though I just found out I may have to work this weekend - which way does that cut?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Yet somehow, people with a same religious tradition disagree strongly on many facets of their faith. Religion is what people make of it and how they personally choose to apply/interpret it - religion in practice has very little to do with literal word.

It's hard to interpret black for white. Christianity teaches you that you'll go to hell for bad deeds and you should work on improving yourself and your actions while the message in the book is unconditional love, "there is nothing to fear, there's nothing you can do wrong". These are quite opposite messages.

That is NOT what Christianity teaches.

Me again. The bible tells us that God loves us unconditionally and that nothing can separate us from that love. Because He knows that human beings can never be perfect (thats a whole other sermon) and that our sins would send us to a place without Him, He sacrificed His son to take on the punishment we deserve. What God does require is that we accept that sacrifice that Christ made for us because in doing so He promises us that every thing we do wrong is covered by that one sacrifice. So anyone who accepts that sacrifice has a clean slate as far as God is concerned.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I read it..
I believe in Heaven...not so much as a place as much as an experience of being fully present in the presence of God...
I guess what he experienced is real...i don't find it hard to believe

+1 I totally agree with you. I think that "shared state of consciousness" that travels across cultures is an experience of the divine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Slightly OT but kind of relevant. Doesn't the fact that we exist at all just blow your mind? For me that was one of the driving forces in investigating the existence of higher power - in my case God/Jesus. I really find it amazing that people dismiss God outright without any attempt at finding out if He exists.

How do you suggest we go about this?

Have you ever tried just asking Him? Just saying , "God, if you're really there please show me", then see what happens.

I did when I saw your post. Still waiting. Though I just found out I may have to work this weekend - which way does that cut?

God says " if you seek me you will find me, if you seek me with all our heart"
Don't give up.
Let me know what happens.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Yet somehow, people with a same religious tradition disagree strongly on many facets of their faith. Religion is what people make of it and how they personally choose to apply/interpret it - religion in practice has very little to do with literal word.

It's hard to interpret black for white. Christianity teaches you that you'll go to hell for bad deeds and you should work on improving yourself and your actions while the message in the book is unconditional love, "there is nothing to fear, there's nothing you can do wrong". These are quite opposite messages.

That is NOT what Christianity teaches.

Me again. The bible tells us that God loves us unconditionally and that nothing can separate us from that love. Because He knows that human beings can never be perfect (thats a whole other sermon) and that our sins would send us to a place without Him, He sacrificed His son to take on the punishment we deserve. What God does require is that we accept that sacrifice that Christ made for us because in doing so He promises us that every thing we do wrong is covered by that one sacrifice. So anyone who accepts that sacrifice has a clean slate as far as God is concerned.

I understand that people like to pick and choose which parts of scripture to take, and which to disregard, but it sounds like you've never even read the Bible cover to cover. It reads more like a bipolar maniac, rather than a strictly loving, or strictly vengeful/violent/angry god.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Slightly OT but kind of relevant. Doesn't the fact that we exist at all just blow your mind? For me that was one of the driving forces in investigating the existence of higher power - in my case God/Jesus. I really find it amazing that people dismiss God outright without any attempt at finding out if He exists.

How do you suggest we go about this?

Have you ever tried just asking Him? Just saying , "God, if you're really there please show me", then see what happens.

I did when I saw your post. Still waiting. Though I just found out I may have to work this weekend - which way does that cut?

God says " if you seek me you will find me, if you seek me with all our heart"
Don't give up.
Let me know what happens.

Ra didn't say that. Which god are you talking about?