current and potential immersion parents - watch out sneaky tactic to kick you out of bcc

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is all so confusing! When I was a kid, you just went to the school that was nearby and your friends from kindergarten were in your graduating class senior year. It's sad knowing my kids probably won't have that. MCPS feels a little like the death star to me. But that's just me.

This is part of the point. The immersion kids at Rock Creek Forest (and it sounds like the Chinese Immersion students in the Churchill cluster as well) have a system in place that allows them to do this very thing --- stay in school from k-12 with your friends (both immersion and non-immersion classmates). Why should MCPS force a change where there is no need to do so? It seems like this is a better choice for the children's emotional and social development. Parents in the other immersion programs without such an opportunity for continuity should consider banding together to request the same treatment and creation of a similar educational path. It makes more sense than scattering classmates throughout the county after middle school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a kindergartener in the RCF spanish immersion program. I guess maybe all this is just so far off, but I can't figure out why I should care.

Can someone answer this question for me - is there a spanish immersion program continuation at BCC? If not, I'd personally rather just send my kid to SSIMS and Northwood (our home schools) because Westland and BCC are so far away.

I can see being upset if your kids are already at Westland because of course you'd want them to stay with their class on to BCC - that makes total sense to me. But if your kids are still at RCF, then they can go to SSIMS and still be with their friends for their assigned high school.

Or am I missing something?

What's glaringly missing to me is not everyone lives in the cluster where the immersion is located. If you live in Damascus and have a kid at RCF who wants to continue immersion they can't do that at the local middle school. If they do complete immersion at Westland or SSIMS that's where their "friends" will be. If they go back to Damascus they will A) not know most kids B) not be able to take higher level Spanish which was the point of being in Immersion in the first place.

The middle school program at SSIMS is not complete immersion. It is partial immersion.

One of my kids went to a magnet for middle school after being in immersion. He took foreign language there. Not immersion, no, but foreign language including grammar (largely missing in ES immersion). He then went on - with other immersion kids - to take higher level language in high school. He is doing great and spent a month abroad last summer, where his host family raved about his fluency.

It is not necessary to be in full immersion the whole way through to accomplish the goal of choosing immersion.

[Anonymous]

Further, since Westland is overcrowded aren't RCF immersion parents on notice that the path to Westland/BCC may end at any time? Those conversations took place at least two years ago and each entering grade should be fully informed. They would instead continue as a cohort at SSIMS.

Immersion is a great program. If parents are in it for the language, they should be glad to continue it in any school.

Fully agree the focus should be on strengthening immersion through high school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What's glaringly missing to me is not everyone lives in the cluster where the immersion is located. If you live in Damascus and have a kid at RCF who wants to continue immersion they can't do that at the local middle school. If they do complete immersion at Westland or SSIMS that's where their "friends" will be. If they go back to Damascus they will A) not know most kids B) not be able to take higher level Spanish which was the point of being in Immersion in the first place.

Are there many children from Damascus at Rock Creek Forest, which is in Chevy Chase? (Are there any?)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What's glaringly missing to me is not everyone lives in the cluster where the immersion is located. If you live in Damascus and have a kid at RCF who wants to continue immersion they can't do that at the local middle school. If they do complete immersion at Westland or SSIMS that's where their "friends" will be. If they go back to Damascus they will A) not know most kids B) not be able to take higher level Spanish which was the point of being in Immersion in the first place.

Are there many children from Damascus at Rock Creek Forest, which is in Chevy Chase? (Are there any?)

There are kids from Boyds and the outer reaches of Silver Spring

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem with the RCF spanish immersion program is that it's located in a good school pyramid. Parents who are scrambling to get away from a less desirable school pyramid apply just to be in the BCC. Magnet programs should be used to draw the affluent/middle class families into the poorer communities to attend schools that would otherwise have few/limited students from middle-class families, not draw the affluent/middle class families away from the DCC, which seems to be the trend. It leaves the DCC schools with even fewer middle class families than it would have if everyone just went to their neighborhood school, it overcrowds the BCC (much to the dismay of the folks who pay the big bucks to live in that school assignment), and it makes it that much harder for parents with a genuine desire to expose their kids to a second language to get into the program because they're competing with a whole slew of applicants who just want anything but their home school. I'm sure there's a story behind the location of the program or a rule behind it or something, and maybe of the elementaries in the BCC cluster RCF has a comparatively high FARMS rate which somehow justified placing the program there, but as a policy matter, and looking at the incentive structure the program creates, my instinct is to say MCPS is doing it wrong with this program. The full immersion program should probably be in the downcounty.

Westland immersion parent here. I agree that the best solution is for MCPS to establish an immersion program continuation in high school somewhere. Otherwise the kids have no option for adequate language instruction and all that work and sacrifice is greatly diminished. I for one would send my child to a downcounty high school with an immersion continuation without hesitation -- I think most of the other parents agree.

The problem here is that the BCC cluster reps are acting in bad faith by not involving their immersion family constituents (all of whom pay PTA dues, volunteer, etc.) in the decision and at least informing them. We have had NO communication from them on this point at all. Even the RCF PTA won't speak up for the interests of half of its members. It is appalling.

The second problem is that MCPS, during several meetings with Cluster Superintendent Garran, BoE member Shirley Brandman and others, promised that such a change would be conducted with great transparency and input from immersion parents, with plenty of notice. Instead, this has been done on the sly with absolutely NO input from immersion parents. This is a public school system, not a private school whose tuition is paid through taxes. We should have been involved, informed, and our children's interests also considered.

The result is there are kids who are already well ensconced in middle school at Westland, whose families have made certain decisions about application magnets, etc., who now are going to be scattered across the county for high school. Many of these schools do not have the higher level language classes or the critical mass of high-level speakers to allow kids to maintain and continue to develop their language skills.
Maybe it is time for a change, but that doesn't mean that immersion parents should be dealt with in bad faith or treated like they are carpetbaggers. I can tell you that I did not make the decision for immersion based on BCC -- in fact, my other child is not in immersion and goes to a different high school and is perfectly fine. And the BCC parents are treating immersion parents in such an elitist, "I pay more taxes than you" way that it's really offensive. We applied to a legitimate magnet program and operated under the assumption that the assurances of MCPS leadership would be followed through on.

The reality is that we are talking about a small number of kids -- about 20 - 25 per grade. It's not going to make a dent in BCC's overcrowding but it's really an unfair and deceptive way to deal with these families.

French immersion parent here and I can tell you from experience that your fear is unfounded. SSIMS French immersion kids are scattered everywhere and it works out for them. I have had three kids go through the FI program and am very familiar with how this plays out. They do FINE. There *is* adequate language instruction for them at their home and at other MCPS high schools. It works FINE.

Serious/non-sarcastic question: Why do you think the MCPS Spanish immersion kids are entitled to what none of the other immersion kids have?

There will likely never be an immersion high school for these kids. I think pursuing that amounts to tilting at windmills.

The deception you describe is a whole other story and while I know nothing about it, based on some of my experience with MCPS I believe that what you are saying is true. FWIW.

PP here -- I don't! I think all immersion kids should have an option to continue on in high school with rigorous language instruction, and that we immersion parents should be banding together to ask for this. I don't care where it is, as long as it's a semi-reasonable commute (I wouldn't go all the way to Poolesville or Gaithersburg, for example).

Rather than giving up, you should support us and work for more and better high level language options in high school!

And FWIW, someone did a survey and there are a number of MCPS high schools that don't offer anything above Spanish IV. My child is will be in Spanish IV in 9th grade, and colleges want to see more than one year of a language.

This is a step that would help keep MCPS on the cutting edge -- we should all be fighting for it! Other large districts have innovative high school programs ... why does MCPS push so hard against them?!

1. My question was not about ALL immersion students. It was about Spanish immersion students and BCC in particular.
2. I support what you are saying but in this era of budget cuts and given the bureaucracy that is MCPS, I personally would not put any work into this, even if my kids were younger. My kids are in high school now and so my efforts are directed at getting them through HS and to good colleges.
3. You must be joking about innovative programs. For the love of God, we have language immersion programs (multiple ones); IB programs; CAP; math/science/computer science magnets. I think MCPS does pretty well at innovative and targeted programs, certainly better than many systems.

I think it is irrational and unrealistic for Westland immersion parents to expect the continuation of this single track, which is not available to all immersion kids.

You inadvertently bring up a core issue which is that virtually all the "innovative" programs are in a small region of a huge county. If anyone that happens to live far away from these innovative programs and wishes to participate its strangely looked down upon. I guess only some of us should have the privilege. Outside of immersion and the magnets most of the county can't even participate.

MCPS should spread them out and we'd have no reason to go WAY over there

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
1. My question was not about ALL immersion students. It was about Spanish immersion students and BCC in particular.
2. I support what you are saying but in this era of budget cuts and given the bureaucracy that is MCPS, I personally would not put any work into this, even if my kids were younger. My kids are in high school now and so my efforts are directed at getting them through HS and to good colleges.
3. You must be joking about innovative programs. For the love of God, we have language immersion programs (multiple ones); IB programs; CAP; math/science/computer science magnets. I think MCPS does pretty well at innovative and targeted programs, certainly better than many systems.

I think it is irrational and unrealistic for Westland immersion parents to expect the continuation of this single track, which is not available to all immersion kids.

You inadvertently bring up a core issue which is that virtually all the "innovative" programs are in a small region of a huge county. If anyone that happens to live far away from these innovative programs and wishes to participate its strangely looked down upon. I guess only some of us should have the privilege. Outside of immersion and the magnets most of the county can't even participate.

MCPS should spread them out and we'd have no reason to go WAY over there

RM IB, Roberto Clemente, Poolesville are all in other areas, as is Maryvale French immersion.

Everyone is entitled to apply and attend the ones their clusters are slated for. Everyone has the right - it's not a privilege. I don't know what you mean by "strangely looked down upon."

The whole point of locating these magnets in "red zone" areas is to bring high-SES families to the schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What's glaringly missing to me is not everyone lives in the cluster where the immersion is located. If you live in Damascus and have a kid at RCF who wants to continue immersion they can't do that at the local middle school. If they do complete immersion at Westland or SSIMS that's where their "friends" will be. If they go back to Damascus they will A) not know most kids B) not be able to take higher level Spanish which was the point of being in Immersion in the first place.

Are there many children from Damascus at Rock Creek Forest, which is in Chevy Chase? (Are there any?)

If they're not that many what's the issue?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Further, since Westland is overcrowded aren't RCF immersion parents on notice that the path to Westland/BCC may end at any time? Those conversations took place at least two years ago and each entering grade should be fully informed. They would instead continue as a cohort at SSIMS.

Immersion is a great program. If parents are in it for the language, they should be glad to continue it in any school.

Fully agree the focus should be on strengthening immersion through high school.

Whoa Hold your horses! That hasn't happened yet so until then kids should be able to go to BCC. If it does move immersion parents will gladly move with it.

[Anonymous]

Why should MCPS force a change where there is no need to do so?

Who says there is no need? B-CC is overcrowded, with projections saying it will only get more overcrowded, and has less land/space into which to expand than any other school in the county.

[Anonymous]

PP again. To turn it around:

"Why should this large group of students from all over the county, attend one of the most overcrowded high schools at the very edge of the county?"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
1. My question was not about ALL immersion students. It was about Spanish immersion students and BCC in particular.
2. I support what you are saying but in this era of budget cuts and given the bureaucracy that is MCPS, I personally would not put any work into this, even if my kids were younger. My kids are in high school now and so my efforts are directed at getting them through HS and to good colleges.
3. You must be joking about innovative programs. For the love of God, we have language immersion programs (multiple ones); IB programs; CAP; math/science/computer science magnets. I think MCPS does pretty well at innovative and targeted programs, certainly better than many systems.

I think it is irrational and unrealistic for Westland immersion parents to expect the continuation of this single track, which is not available to all immersion kids.

You inadvertently bring up a core issue which is that virtually all the "innovative" programs are in a small region of a huge county. If anyone that happens to live far away from these innovative programs and wishes to participate its strangely looked down upon. I guess only some of us should have the privilege. Outside of immersion and the magnets most of the county can't even participate.

MCPS should spread them out and we'd have no reason to go WAY over there

RM IB, Roberto Clemente, Poolesville are all in other areas, as is Maryvale French immersion.

Everyone is entitled to apply and attend the ones their clusters are slated for. Everyone has the right - it's not a privilege. I don't know what you mean by "strangely looked down upon."
G
The whole point of locating these magnets in "red zone" areas is to bring high-SES families to the schools.

Like I said outside of the magnet most can't participate. Spanish is the hottest language and both programs are virtually right next door to eachother. All of those CAP, engineering, computer, Loiderman, etc are not available to everyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP again. To turn it around:

"Why should this large group of students from all over the county, attend one of the most overcrowded high schools at the very edge of the county?"

Fine move the program but don't say kids in the feeder middle school that they can't matriculate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a kindergartener in the RCF spanish immersion program. I guess maybe all this is just so far off, but I can't figure out why I should care.

Can someone answer this question for me - is there a spanish immersion program continuation at BCC? If not, I'd personally rather just send my kid to SSIMS and Northwood (our home schools) because Westland and BCC are so far away.

I can see being upset if your kids are already at Westland because of course you'd want them to stay with their class on to BCC - that makes total sense to me. But if your kids are still at RCF, then they can go to SSIMS and still be with their friends for their assigned high school.

Or am I missing something?

The answer is NO and your comment is very enlightening.

Could this entire, well-crafted, albeit poor argument, be originating from parents who are not happy with their home school and have found a way to trick the system? If so, this is really a shame. It's hugely unfair to other language immersion families (like the french families who have spoken up here) and a very disingenuous way to avoid a less desirable cluster. What do these people tell their child about their choice for language immersion?

"Well honey, we really don't give a darn about language immersion, it was just a way to get you out of our lower performing cluster." ???

If I were on the BOE, this issue would not waste one more minute of my time.

I don't actually know what the answer is here - all I know is that I'd like my kindergartener to continue full immersion as long as possible and then to have at least partial for as long as possible and then to be able to continue with Spanish at an appropriate level through HS. I don't personally care where he does it.

If getting out of your crappy home highschool is the only reason parents are fighting to stay in BCC, then obviously that shouldn't be the answer if it doesn't make sense otherwise. But come on - it's not "hugely unfair" to the other language immersion families and it's not "very disingenuous." Maybe they are saying to their kids "I'm willing to do everything I can to make sure you get the best possible education that I can get you." And really, isn't that something we'd all fight for to some degree?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a kindergartener in the RCF spanish immersion program. I guess maybe all this is just so far off, but I can't figure out why I should care.

Can someone answer this question for me - is there a spanish immersion program continuation at BCC? If not, I'd personally rather just send my kid to SSIMS and Northwood (our home schools) because Westland and BCC are so far away.

I can see being upset if your kids are already at Westland because of course you'd want them to stay with their class on to BCC - that makes total sense to me. But if your kids are still at RCF, then they can go to SSIMS and still be with their friends for their assigned high school.

Or am I missing something?

The answer is NO and your comment is very enlightening.

Could this entire, well-crafted, albeit poor argument, be originating from parents who are not happy with their home school and have found a way to trick the system? If so, this is really a shame. It's hugely unfair to other language immersion families (like the french families who have spoken up here) and a very disingenuous way to avoid a less desirable cluster. What do these people tell their child about their choice for language immersion?

"Well honey, we really don't give a darn about language immersion, it was just a way to get you out of our lower performing cluster." ???

If I were on the BOE, this issue would not waste one more minute of my time.

I don't actually know what the answer is here - all I know is that I'd like my kindergartener to continue full immersion as long as possible and then to have at least partial for as long as possible and then to be able to continue with Spanish at an appropriate level through HS. I don't personally care where he does it.

If getting out of your crappy home highschool is the only reason parents are fighting to stay in BCC, then obviously that shouldn't be the answer if it doesn't make sense otherwise. But come on - it's not "hugely unfair" to the other language immersion families and it's not "very disingenuous." Maybe they are saying to their kids "I'm willing to do everything I can to make sure you get the best possible education that I can get you." And really, isn't that something we'd all fight for to some degree?

The short answer is policy can't be made on unprovable assumptions. Either the county supports immersion or it doesn't .