Explaining what "gay" is to my DC. Advice?

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

Actually, the fault lies with people who are too wrapped up in their own burning flame of martyrdom to read what is being written.

Guess what. Not everyone should have children. Some families situations are better than others. I do not try to force what I believe to be right on anyone via laws that discriminate. I stand by the right of anyone to have a child. However, I am PERSONALLY torn about this topic. As are a great many kind, loving, caring people. And we should be able to discuss these feelings openly. Just because your feelings aren't politically correct, it does not make them invalid.

I agree 100%. But, your point is larger than gay families. For instance, you said you have similar concerns about single parent families. You are welcome to your views. You are welcome to express your views. But, such a discussion belongs in a forum that has a similarly large focus. If you were posting in the "Single Moms" forum, single moms would feel you were specifically attacking them. However, you are posting in the Gay and Lesbian Parents forum and, understandably, your views are being construed as anti-Gay. Since, as you've now explained, your views are actually pro-nuclear family, you will be better served by posting in a more appropriate forum.

I don't want to interfere with your expression of ideas -- whether they are popular or not. I just would like for you to express those views in the appropriate forum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Actually, the fault lies with people who are too wrapped up in their own burning flame of martyrdom to read what is being written.

Guess what. Not everyone should have children. Some families situations are better than others. I do not try to force what I believe to be right on anyone via laws that discriminate. I stand by the right of anyone to have a child. However, I am PERSONALLY torn about this topic. As are a great many kind, loving, caring people. And we should be able to discuss these feelings openly. Just because your feelings aren't politically correct, it does not make them invalid.

The point that has been made is that you're entitled to your ambivalent feelings but you're not entitled to avoid other people's criticism when you bring them up on a forum that is meant to support gay and lesbian parents, not attack them. I think it's telling that you characterize others' criticism as being generated by "their own burning flame of martyrdom" while you say your position is the result of having an "open mind."

Would you expect to avoid criticism if you wrote that you are torn about whether interracial couples are morally correct in having children in a post on a forum designed to support interracial couples?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Actually, the fault lies with people who are too wrapped up in their own burning flame of martyrdom to read what is being written.

Guess what. Not everyone should have children. Some families situations are better than others. I do not try to force what I believe to be right on anyone via laws that discriminate. I stand by the right of anyone to have a child. However, I am PERSONALLY torn about this topic. As are a great many kind, loving, caring people. And we should be able to discuss these feelings openly. Just because your feelings aren't politically correct, it does not make them invalid.

The point that has been made is that you're entitled to your ambivalent feelings but you're not entitled to avoid other people's criticism when you bring them up on a forum that is meant to support gay and lesbian parents, not attack them. I think it's telling that you characterize others' criticism as being generated by "their own burning flame of martyrdom" while you say your position is the result of having an "open mind."

Would you expect to avoid criticism if you wrote that you are torn about whether interracial couples are morally correct in having children in a post on a forum designed to support interracial couples?

Couldn't agree more with this response.

If you want to discuss, as a straight person, your "tornness" about the morality of MY family structure, then do it someplace other than a forum set aside as a safe place for discussion of the issues OUR FAMILIES face. I have no interest in your internal dilemmas, with all due respect - and I DON'T need you to discuss them here and justify it by saying that other people like you exist in the world. That is such a patronizing rationalization. We live with homophobia and the impact of others' "tornness" every day of our lives.

This has nothing to do with political correctness and everything to do with simple respect and thoughtfulness.

[Anonymous]

agree wholeheartedly with the previous post and with jsteele. and on another note, why is this "personally torn" person spending so much time and energy in this forum? we have heard (read) ad nauseum. please please find another forum.
--just another "homosexual" who chose to have a child

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Actually, the fault lies with people who are too wrapped up in their own burning flame of martyrdom to read what is being written.

Guess what. Not everyone should have children. Some families situations are better than others. I do not try to force what I believe to be right on anyone via laws that discriminate. I stand by the right of anyone to have a child. However, I am PERSONALLY torn about this topic. As are a great many kind, loving, caring people. And we should be able to discuss these feelings openly. Just because your feelings aren't politically correct, it does not make them invalid.

The point that has been made is that you're entitled to your ambivalent feelings but you're not entitled to avoid other people's criticism when you bring them up on a forum that is meant to support gay and lesbian parents, not attack them. I think it's telling that you characterize others' criticism as being generated by "their own burning flame of martyrdom" while you say your position is the result of having an "open mind."

Would you expect to avoid criticism if you wrote that you are torn about whether interracial couples are morally correct in having children in a post on a forum designed to support interracial couples?

I'm perfectly happy to have an intelligent and rational discussion and face similiar criticism of my ideas. This has not happened. Instead, I have had people twist my words around, make absolutely ridiculous assumptions, mock my friendships with "the homosexuals", and generally respond in a "if you're not with me, you're hateful against me" attitude. Intelligent cristicism is welcome. Intelligent discussion is welcome. The reaction that I have gotten (in response, ps to a topic that SOMEONE ELSE brought up) is neither of those things. When people turn, "you don't entirely support what I've done" into "You are a hateful person who is filled with hate and strives to keep me down" despite several comments to the contrary, that becomes the "burning flame of martydom".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I'm perfectly happy to have an intelligent and rational discussion and face similiar criticism of my ideas. This has not happened. Instead, I have had people twist my words around, make absolutely ridiculous assumptions, mock my friendships with "the homosexuals", and generally respond in a "if you're not with me, you're hateful against me" attitude. Intelligent cristicism is welcome. Intelligent discussion is welcome. The reaction that I have gotten (in response, ps to a topic that SOMEONE ELSE brought up) is neither of those things. When people turn, "you don't entirely support what I've done" into "You are a hateful person who is filled with hate and strives to keep me down" despite several comments to the contrary, that becomes the "burning flame of martydom".

Your lack of empathy continues to be evident.

Get off this thread and this forum and start the conversation you want to have in another forum. That's the whole point. Just move along.

This is not the place for your desire to engage in debate around your ideas.

[Anonymous]

You're right. My lack of empathy knows no bounds. I don't automatically agree with everything that you do, so I suck.

You all win. I am moving on. Because this is pointless. You, "the homosexuals", as you like to call yourselves, can sit here and nurse your wounds and talk about how persecuted you are by everyone who dares to breathe an ounce of criticism against anything that you do. And you can have fun with that. You can talk amongst yourselves about how horrible I am and how much I suck. And you can neglect to take into consideration the extremely large amount of support that I give the gay community in a variety of ways - because admitting that would eliminate the ease with which you can call me a hateful bigot.. And you can huddle yourselves into a "safe community" where only words of absolute support can be uttered in your direction - because THAT is clearly a better way forward than sitting down with someone who sees things a little differently, hearing their words, and putting out your own words without assuming that the other side is "out to get you". You can even chose to ignore that I only put my opinion out there in response to someone else who brought the topic of homosexuals having children to the table, and only continued to respond "ad nauseum" because I was being questioned, and in a great many cases, my words were being taken COMPLETELY out of context.

My point in this whole thing is that in this world we think that we are entitled to everything that we want - no matter the cost. And this thread not only illustrates that, but also illustrates that we don't even like to be QUESTIONED on the hypothetical implications of those decisions. Anyone who questions our desire to have everything that we want, even if it is for honest and sincere reasons, is the enemy.

So, there you have it, "homosexuals". I am the enemy. This Prop 8 protesting, PFLAG suporting, MA marriage celebrating, gay piano bar singing, hateful, homophobic enemy to the "homosexuals" is out of here. Congratulate yourselves. And don't stop to question if maybe your blindness to what I was saying and your unwillingness to believe that someone who can question an individual aspect of the gay community could be an extremely vocal ally in a great many of your causes. Certainly don't stop to wonder if MAYBE that type of attitude only serves to enlarge the rift between the gay community and "straight people like me". Don't wonder if the reasons that I am torn are because a great many people I care deeply about are gay, and I want to see them personally happy, and I have a very hard time with the idea that something that may make them happy is not something that I can fully support. In short, don't look at the multiple facets of this issue.

[Anonymous]

Wow. I just read this WHOLE thread and there is some innnnneresting stuff going on here, but I just shake my head. All this energy, all this verbiage, all this freedom talk, all this deomcracy chatter, but it all ends with the last post being totally insane. You disagree, but you support. You want "the homosexuals" to know you HAVE RIGHTS, but they have none, and now you are the victim? Holy moly.

I have to say, I think the posters on this thread were quite kind, thoughtful, even patient with someone I think is DEEPLY conflicted about this subject. Well done, PP's.

[Anonymous]

Just for the record, 13:34, I am one of your critics and I am straight. The rift you're experiencing "between the gay community and 'straight people like me'" is yours, not mine.

[Anonymous]

to 13:34: it's great to hear you are moving on. happy trails to you. bye bye.

[Anonymous]

I'm really sorry that you are torn about the morality of non-nuclear families. That must be tough. I get a little torn about the correctness of a three year old with a binky. But you know what?? They are not my kids. I can step back and appreciate that the parents know their kids better than me, the random stranger. I don't need to start a conversation or expand my open mind about the place of a pacifier. I can mind my own business and respect someone else's family, even if I think it may cause long term tooth damage.

Really, it is all about mutual respect. You could insert any parenting topic: CIO, spanking, etc. into the previous paragraph and it would be the same. There is a time to just mind your own business and understand that no one really gives a shit about your internal moral dilemma.

[Anonymous]

Ummmmm, I would substitute homosexuality with spanking. I get your point though PP. But spanking is often, but not always, a slippery slope to real abuse. Pacifiers and gayness, not so much.

[Anonymous]

It was more about respecting other people's parenting choices.

[Anonymous]

PP here. I meant I would NOT substitute homosexuality with spanking. Spanking is BAAAAAAD.

[Anonymous]

I did not equate homosexuality with spanking. I did not mention homosexuality at all, actually.