Pit Bulls and the HOA

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:11:04, I actually did look at that journal article and it states that they are more likely than most to attack not that they all attack. I actually have obtain an Ivy League education, but I'm not a snob. Most Ivy League educated people think they are better than most because of there education and how much money they make. However, if you put aside the amount of money you make and your education what would you have left?

I own two pitbulls and I raised them since they were 6 weeks old. They have never and I mean NEVER attacked, bit, or harmed anyone. My cousins always come over and are more afraid of the Chihuahua that lives next door than my dogs. I do understand why some might be afraid of them (I used to be one of those people) but when you raise them at 6 weeks old and see them grow and train them the proper way then you might see things differently.

I really doubt you have an ivy league education. but besides that, how you raise the dogs doesn't change their jaw strength, tenacity and it certainly doesn't change the instinctive bred-in characteristics of the breed. my german shepherd has never been near a sheep, but if I took her to a herd she would instinctively know how to round them up ....

Oh that is total bullshit. Take that GSD to a farm now. You'd be proven wrong in about 20 seconds.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:11:04, I actually did look at that journal article and it states that they are more likely than most to attack not that they all attack. I actually have obtain an Ivy League education, but I'm not a snob. Most Ivy League educated people think they are better than most because of there education and how much money they make. However, if you put aside the amount of money you make and your education what would you have left?

I own two pitbulls and I raised them since they were 6 weeks old. They have never and I mean NEVER attacked, bit, or harmed anyone. My cousins always come over and are more afraid of the Chihuahua that lives next door than my dogs. I do understand why some might be afraid of them (I used to be one of those people) but when you raise them at 6 weeks old and see them grow and train them the proper way then you might see things differently.

I really doubt you have an ivy league education. but besides that, how you raise the dogs doesn't change their jaw strength, tenacity and it certainly doesn't change the instinctive bred-in characteristics of the breed. my german shepherd has never been near a sheep, but if I took her to a herd she would instinctively know how to round them up ....

You should really think about what you stating here. There are many journal article that states negative things about german shepherds, yet you own one.... How ironic.

[Anonymous]

You know there is a reason why illegal dog fighting rings don't breed Chihuahuas. Certain breeds do have more aggression, fight instinct, and the jaw strength to inflict serious damage. I don't think the logic of I have raised it since a pup and I don't believe it would ever hurt someone is very wise. People who raise wolves and bears say the same thing and then act very suprised when it attacks them or a neighbor.

The logic that other breeds or animals may bite also doesn't hold water. If I am going to be bitten by something I'd rather it not be something with jaw strength and instinct to hold on of a pit bull.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Anyone who would own a pit bull is an idiot. They were bred for hundreds of years to fight for sport. Just get a collie

Troll.

[Anonymous]

The central thing is that people should always be careful around dogs of any kind. Any dog can suddenly attack if provoked in a certain way. I own a pitbull mix. She is adorable and loving but I have no doubt that she would make short work of anyone if she were to be provoked. But no one has provoked her and I don't let kids play around her but I wouldn't let kids play around a Golden Retriever either.

If your friend brings over the pitbull, it shouldn't be allowed to run free anywhere in the neighborhood but then no dog should be allowed to do that.

[Anonymous]

First, the breed is relatively young and didn't come to be until the mid 19th century making it less than 200 yrs old. It was cross bred with a bulldog and is very intelligent, making it ideal for obedience, agility and tracking. There is no dispute it is a very strong dog but nobody is here making the argument to ban and dispose of every bull dog in the world. What about the precious RCA mascot or the snorty english bulldogs we see from time to time. These are all very strong breeds, combine the tenacity of terriers, which were bred to rid sewer systems of rodents, and you have the staffordshire terrier. Because of their strength, it is paramount that someone experienced in dog handling be the owner of this breed. People use the breed inappropriately and if anything, there needs to be more education about the breed and it's ability, more screening of all animal owners, not just "pit bull" owners.

Second, ever seen Little Rascals? Yeah, Petey, he was a pit. Highly intelligent, very trainable, loved by all.

Third, there is an organization called the American Temperament Test Society. They test several breeds on an annual basis. Pit bulls fared better than collies, dobermans, dalmations, daschunds, boxers (which I also adore,) and is about on par with results from shepherds and golden retrievers, even rottweilers are on par with the performance of thse other dogs. You can see by the numbers that there are more of these alleged "aggressive" breeds tested to make sure they have a good test base.
http://atts.org/breed-statistics/statistics-page1/

Part of being a responsible pet owner is knowledge. This breed in particular is singled out because of their strength.

My pit bull was very and quite submissive, I could easily flip her to her back, that she was used in an education program for children that were afraid of dogs or had previously been attacked by dogs. I didn't even have her from puppyhood, I got her at the age of 6 after she had been abandoned with a litter of puppies. She was submissive from the day I got her.

As a PP stated, any dog can attack if provoked. Please educate yourselves before making snap judgements. I haven't judged most of you, I am just assuming that you don't know all the facts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:First, the breed is relatively young and didn't come to be until the mid 19th century making it less than 200 yrs old. It was cross bred with a bulldog and is very intelligent, making it ideal for obedience, agility and tracking. There is no dispute it is a very strong dog but nobody is here making the argument to ban and dispose of every bull dog in the world. What about the precious RCA mascot or the snorty english bulldogs we see from time to time. These are all very strong breeds, combine the tenacity of terriers, which were bred to rid sewer systems of rodents, and you have the staffordshire terrier. Because of their strength, it is paramount that someone experienced in dog handling be the owner of this breed. People use the breed inappropriately and if anything, there needs to be more education about the breed and it's ability, more screening of all animal owners, not just "pit bull" owners.

Second, ever seen Little Rascals? Yeah, Petey, he was a pit. Highly intelligent, very trainable, loved by all.

Third, there is an organization called the American Temperament Test Society. They test several breeds on an annual basis. Pit bulls fared better than collies, dobermans, dalmations, daschunds, boxers (which I also adore,) and is about on par with results from shepherds and golden retrievers, even rottweilers are on par with the performance of thse other dogs. You can see by the numbers that there are more of these alleged "aggressive" breeds tested to make sure they have a good test base.
http://atts.org/breed-statistics/statistics-page1/

Part of being a responsible pet owner is knowledge. This breed in particular is singled out because of their strength.

My pit bull was very and quite submissive, I could easily flip her to her back, that she was used in an education program for children that were afraid of dogs or had previously been attacked by dogs. I didn't even have her from puppyhood, I got her at the age of 6 after she had been abandoned with a litter of puppies. She was submissive from the day I got her.

As a PP stated, any dog can attack if provoked. Please educate yourselves before making snap judgements. I haven't judged most of you, I am just assuming that you don't know all the facts.

that is so stupid. of course any dog can attack, but a pit bull is going to cause much more damage than any other breed because of its jaw strength and tenacity. this isnt rocket science. just like we don't let gun owners have assault weapons, we don't need to let dog owners have trained killers.

and yes, german shepherds do herd sheep instinctively. I've seen it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My neighbors have a pit bull mix and she is a really, really sweet, friendly dog. She's always curious about my young daughter, not aggressive toward her. Not all pits are bad. But I get the impression you are trying to stick it to the HOA by inviting over your friend with her dog. Just go to her house, or a dog park.

OP here. No, no...I am not trying to stick it to them. If when I speak with them, they say no, that's the end of the story. My friend would like to stick it to them, and if she tries, I will be very upset. I understand her point of view, but I also understand the point of view from people who fear pit bulls. I want to respect my community. However if we are allowed to have pit bull visitors, then I would like for my friend to be able to bring him. I am still not sure I would have my DC at home when she brings him (we usually hang out during the day because of her crazy schedule)...but would like for him to be able to run in our fenced in yard if he can. Now that I am writing this out, I guess it would make just as much sense to take him to a dog park! I love my friend, but she can be very hard headed sometimes and when she gets on a roll, there is not stopping her. I love her dog too and want him to be able to come play, but not at the expense of me getting in trouble for it.

I am not a fan of dog parks. years ago when we were attacked by that doberman [i posted on the other thread] and when my dog was attacked by another etc nothing about random dogs off leash is appealing.

[Anonymous]

The central thing is that people should always be careful around dogs of any kind. Any dog can suddenly attack if provoked in a certain way. I own a pitbull mix. She is adorable and loving but I have no doubt that she would make short work of anyone if she were to be provoked. But no one has provoked her and I don't let kids play around her but I wouldn't let kids play around a Golden Retriever either.

If your friend brings over the pitbull, it shouldn't be allowed to run free anywhere in the neighborhood but then no dog should be allowed to do that.

While I agree that kids should never play unsupervised around any dog and that no one should let their dogs run around a neighborhood unsupervised, this does not mean that the potential harm and threat from a pit bull and a Golden Retriever is equal. This is the core crux of the faulty logic problem with some dog owners. If a Golden is provoked and bites it is a much different story than if a pit bull is provoked and bites. One may require a few stitches and the other can be lethal or at a minimum cause permanent disfigurement.

[Anonymous]

Pit bull type dogs are adorable. They are usually great with kids. They are the biggest goofballs in the world. If you've ever spent any time around a well-behaved pit, you already know that.

BUT....Really bad breeders and inexperienced, irresponsible, "thug" type owners have taken what was a great family dog and turned it into an unstable breed. That's the sad reality. The dog isn't at fault. The breeders are.

I love pit bull type dogs. But I would never in a million years own one. First, they are unpredictable whether owners want to admit it or not. And secondly, I wouldn't want the liability.

We have two beautiful German Shepherds. They are well-trained and well-behaved. Purchasing a GSD from a reputable breeder generally assures a stable, balanced dog. And most GSD breeders are very good about breeding for temperament. The same cannot be said for pit breeders.

It makes me sad. But the reality is, unless something changes in the way they are bred and sold, pits should be banned.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Pit bull type dogs are adorable. They are usually great with kids. They are the biggest goofballs in the world. If you've ever spent any time around a well-behaved pit, you already know that.

BUT....Really bad breeders and inexperienced, irresponsible, "thug" type owners have taken what was a great family dog and turned it into an unstable breed. That's the sad reality. The dog isn't at fault. The breeders are.

I love pit bull type dogs. But I would never in a million years own one. First, they are unpredictable whether owners want to admit it or not. And secondly, I wouldn't want the liability.

We have two beautiful German Shepherds. They are well-trained and well-behaved. Purchasing a GSD from a reputable breeder generally assures a stable, balanced dog. And most GSD breeders are very good about breeding for temperament. The same cannot be said for pit breeders.

It makes me sad. But the reality is, unless something changes in the way they are bred and sold, pits should be banned.

I think you miss the point too. A pitbull's bite is exponentially more powerful than a bite from a GSD, so temperament really is not the issue. IF they snap, then they cause incredible damage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pit bulls are unpredictable. Those posters that talk about how sweet they are, how they would never hurt anyone etc. speak from ignorance. I hope for your sake you never have to wise up fast.

This opinion is ridiculously stupid - as are HOA rules such as what you describe. As is the constant ongoing "debate" on this board about these dogs. And, it reeks of ignorance about the breed. (No, I don't have one but have worked rescue for years and know many people who have a pit, including my mother). I would guess this poster has never had such a dog or spent any significant time around one, esp one that has been raised in a responsible family.

I'm not going to rehash ever pro/con about his breed again. If people are inclined to hold this opinion there is nothing I'm going to say to change it. It's much easier to retreat into your ignorant bubble and stay there.
I will say a couple of things:
1) these dogs were FAMILY dogs until about 20 years when the media -and abusive dog owners- took hold to cast them in the light currently portrayed by some of the posters here (i.e., it is a myth that their jaws lock. yes they are strong but that is not the same thing).
2) The reason many of these dogs go on to be what some of you think they are is because of the people who own them. Who hype up and play up the aggressive dog image. Any dog, esp very large/strong dogs, MUST BE TRAINED. Not b/c they are aggressive but for control. Most any dog has the capacity to nip if they are pissed (I was bit on the face by a poodle as a child) but the results are worse with a dog that is large.
3) Pits and other larger dogs are some of the most horribly, terribly abused of any dog breeds. That's a fact. Those dogs end up being aggressive.

Please educate yourselves.
And, this has nothing to do w/ "dogs before people" and the two things are not mutually exclusive. You can correct ignorant opinions and still value humans. Those of you who say otherwise are just deflecting from the facts.

Please educate yourself. All these attacks (and many more) were caused by family pets, not abused dogs:

http://www.ketv.com/r/29758504/detail.html
http://www.therepublic.com/view/story/752c0ffb0f4b4b2485ca48bd39616bae/VA--Pit-Bull-Attack/
http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/animal-rights/pit-bull-attack-california-toddler-shocks-family
http://www.wowt.com/news/headlines/Nebraska_Girl_3_Bitten_By_Pit_Bull_During_Hug_133774763.html?storySection=story
http://www.news4jax.com/news/Man-kills-pit-bull-attacking-his-dog/-/475880/4600570/-/eimv1t/-/
http://www.wkyt.com/news/headlines/Pit_bull_attacks_eight-year-old_girl_133506478.html?ref=478
http://www.cfnews13.com/article/news/2011/november/340874/Pit-bull-attack-leaves-2-year-old-Port-Orange-boy-critical

[Anonymous]

I think you miss the point too. A pitbull's bite is exponentially more powerful than a bite from a GSD, so temperament really is not the issue. IF they snap, then they cause incredible damage.

Sorry, but that's just not true. Pit Bulls do not have extraordinary jaw strength nor do their jaws "lock" any differently than other dogs. I would never own a pit simply because I think they have been poorly bred and are unstable. I also wouldn't want the liability. But I hate to see misinformation spread around. My older GSD is 170 pounds (very unusual for a German Shepherd). He has a huge head and jaw. I promise you that his bite would be much stronger than a smaller pit bull. My younger GSD weighs about 85 pounds. But she has a small head and jaw. She could not bite with as much strength as the average pit pull. It all comes down to the size of the dog and the threat that the dog perceives.

Citation needed? Here you go.....

"In more recent research (published in 2009 in the Journal of Anatomy), Dr. Ellis and her team were able to show that the size of the animal and the shape of its jaw predicted bite strength. The larger the dog and the dog's head, and the wider the jaw, the higher the bite force turned out to be. The dog breed with the largest head and widest mouth is the Mastiff, so it is perhaps not surprising that it has been recently measured as having a bite strength of 552 pounds-just shy of the bite force that the lion has. This force exceeds that of all breeds measured to date."

[Anonymous]

A 3 year study shows that pitbulls are responsible for 59% of dog bite fatalities:

http://www.dogsbite.org/dogsbite-newsroom-2009-dogsbite-three-year-fatality-study.php

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I think you miss the point too. A pitbull's bite is exponentially more powerful than a bite from a GSD, so temperament really is not the issue. IF they snap, then they cause incredible damage.

Sorry, but that's just not true. Pit Bulls do not have extraordinary jaw strength nor do their jaws "lock" any differently than other dogs. I would never own a pit simply because I think they have been poorly bred and are unstable. I also wouldn't want the liability. But I hate to see misinformation spread around. My older GSD is 170 pounds (very unusual for a German Shepherd). He has a huge head and jaw. I promise you that his bite would be much stronger than a smaller pit bull. My younger GSD weighs about 85 pounds. But she has a small head and jaw. She could not bite with as much strength as the average pit pull. It all comes down to the size of the dog and the threat that the dog perceives.

Citation needed? Here you go.....

"In more recent research (published in 2009 in the Journal of Anatomy), Dr. Ellis and her team were able to show that the size of the animal and the shape of its jaw predicted bite strength. The larger the dog and the dog's head, and the wider the jaw, the higher the bite force turned out to be. The dog breed with the largest head and widest mouth is the Mastiff, so it is perhaps not surprising that it has been recently measured as having a bite strength of 552 pounds-just shy of the bite force that the lion has. This force exceeds that of all breeds measured to date."

Makes sense but a Mastiff is not inclined to bite. I run a group for English mastiff owners and we own a 4 year old Mastiff. He wouldnt hurt a flea and we have personally never met one that is aggressive in any way unless the owner is being threatened. Even then, they tend to hold people up against a wall rather than bite. I let me 1 year old curl up with my mastiff and I dont give it a second thought. We also have a 3 year old English Bulldog and I watch him like a hawk because he has more issues with jealousy and toy aggression even though he loves kids. But the mastiff is clearly three times or more his size and has the biggest head you have ever seen....he is a gentle giant. There is a reason why people need to read about breed specific characteristics. Big head and jaw doesnt mean dangerous.