Fairfax County Begins to Dumb Down Gifted (GT) Program to Support Diversity

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
My point is entrance tests are metrics that do not mean much. But they are metrics, so they must be good.

What do yo mean they do not mean much?
They must mean something, otherwise they wouldn't ask for it.
It's one of the most significant data they look at.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Why would someone with intrinsic ability have a "lazy approach"? "[S]omeone who does well on the test because of reading widely and being curious about many subjects" is probably also "organized, goal oriented, industrious, focused, etc." A lazy child likely will not do well on the test. I want our future doctors and scientists to have innate ability and curiosity along with the being goal oriented and industrious. I don't want my future doctor when I'm in a nursing home to be someone who just learned how to answer test questions really well!

Again, you're just speculating. Someone who does well on the test is PROBABLY organized, goal-oriented, industrious, etc.?? Why isn't the opposite just as likely to be true? I was always an excellent standardized test taker (think 99th percentile on just about everything I took going through school) but I was never really pushed very hard in school and, because things came so easily, I didn't have to work very hard or be very organized to maintain straight As. I'm one of the least ambitious/industrious people I know! Things turned out ok for me in the end because while I was floundering around at college, I realized that I would soon graduate and have to get a job in the real world, so I thought, "Why not take the LSAT and go to law school instead?" So I signed up for the LSAT & didn't prepare, though I knew other people were taking the Kaplan course or whatever prep courses there were. I didn't see the point in spending money or time on a prep course. Sure enough, 98th percentile. I guess if I had prepared, maybe I would have scored in the 99th? I did have to work hard in law school because that was the first time that I was surrounded by - and competing with - really bright people who were also really hard workers. But I assure you, lazy children can do extremely well on all kinds of aptitude tests! Test scores alone do NOT indicate a child's work habits.

I could not agree more. Some of the most intrinsically gifted people are quite lazy because there is not need to push themselves. I know plenty.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
My point is entrance tests are metrics that do not mean much. But they are metrics, so they must be good.

What do yo mean they do not mean much?
They must mean something, otherwise they wouldn't ask for it.
It's one of the most significant data they look at.

They mean something, but not necessarily what people think they mean. The one thing the testing gives is a quantitative metric of something -- some combination of preparation, intelligence, knowledge, test taking ability, and luck. The evaluation committees (AAP, TJ, College) is looking for a standard baseline of intelligence and knowledge. School performance is an indicator, but an A in one school can mean something else than an A at another school.

So, the standardized tests give a standard of something. Something that is not exactly what they are looking for, but probably better than no standard.

I have been on grad school admissions committees, and we actually looked at this point.

[Anonymous]

Answering 10:25-
Yes, I am speculating based on my background and experience because this is a friendly discussion board.

You are right about a lot here- I actually think we agree more than we disagree. You were innately intelligent and when you needed to, you learned how to be organized and to study. I suspect that you did not spend your childhood and youth sleeping and eating and watching cartoons. I bet you read a lot and were interested in a lot of things and asked a lot of questions of those around you. Maybe you were a Scout or played a sport or a musical instrument or sang or did theatre stuff. You didn't feel you ever worked hard because nothing you did *felt* like work to you: you simply had the innate ability to be good at it.

When it came time to take standardized tests, you actually had been preparing all of your life, you just didn't need to memorize lists of words or types of questions, because you had already learned the information or skills being tested. Your high test scores were a reflection of your high ability combined with all your previous experiences. And, in addition to good grades in college, somebody in a position of authority thought enough of you to recommend you to the law school admissions committee. You are just the kind of person I would like to handle a legal issue for me because I suspect you know your stuff and work is not drudgery for you. Do you think you would know more today if you had spent hours on specific test prep rather than whatever else you were doing?

This isn't about whether or not someone is a hard worker, it's about where they focus that hard work. I am not talking about general educational enrichment here, I am talking about very specific test prep. Practicing test questions over and over again and then, surprise!, doing well on the test does not turn a kid into the perfect candidate for TJ. It is not enough just to do well on the test. They need something more-and if they spend all their time practicing test questions, they'll be missing out on that something more.

I think we may have moved away from the diversity topic here. My initial point was just that using test scores as the one and only deciding factor in TJ admissions would not be a good idea because it is too easy to learn to "game" the test, so it is necessary to look at other factors to get a better idea of the child's actual aptitude for science and math. A single test score just doesn't give enough information.

[Anonymous]

The ability to take tests well pretty much tells you that you are able to take tests well. At Mensa meetings, most of the members are great test takers. You will meet scientists there, but you will also meet cab drivers, bar bouncers etc. who are bright, but who don't have the drive, ambition, or social skills to function in jobs that would challenge.

I've been an Ivy League alumni interviewer in this area for a while. My former college doesn't admit kids by just lining up the kids with the highest test scores, because we are looking for students and alumni who actually get up and do stuff. That's why Ivy League schools use holistic admissions, while state universities often rely on grades and test scores more heavily.

[Anonymous]

14:06: 12:32 here....you said what I was trying to say...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The ability to take tests well pretty much tells you that you are able to take tests well. At Mensa meetings, most of the members are great test takers. You will meet scientists there, but you will also meet cab drivers, bar bouncers etc. who are bright, but who don't have the drive, ambition, or social skills to function in jobs that would challenge.

I've been an Ivy League alumni interviewer in this area for a while. My former college doesn't admit kids by just lining up the kids with the highest test scores, because we are looking for students and alumni who actually get up and do stuff. That's why Ivy League schools use holistic admissions, while state universities often rely on grades and test scores more heavily.

I don't get your point. I'm sure test scores are very important to Ivy league schools, too. Of course the application package has other things, and they look at other things, too, but check the avearge SAT scores of those schools. I'm sure they think it's important. By the way they also take students for their parents and donations. Well they are private schools and they can do whatever they want to do.

[Anonymous]

Important yes, but not the only thing. Ivy admissions do not care about the difference between 700 and 800 on any subject test.

[Anonymous]

Of course it's not the only thing. Nothing is the only thing.

[Anonymous]

I'm so glad I don't get worked up about this stuff. My kids are going to get a great education and be successful, productive, well adjusted adjusts no matter where they go to school. The important thing is they enjoy learning and can do it independently. Many of you need to lighten up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm so glad I don't get worked up about this stuff. My kids are going to get a great education and be successful, productive, well adjusted adjusts no matter where they go to school. The important thing is they enjoy learning and can do it independently. Many of you need to lighten up.

Can I borrow the magic crystal ball?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm so glad I don't get worked up about this stuff. My kids are going to get a great education and be successful, productive, well adjusted adjusts no matter where they go to school. The important thing is they enjoy learning and can do it independently. Many of you need to lighten up.

Can I borrow the magic crystal ball?

What does a crystal ball have to do with it? It's all about the parents not a school. AAP isn't going to teach my kids to enjoy learning or do it independently. We value education, recognize there is more than one kind of intelligence and don't care if the kids don't go to an Ivy League school. Sure, there will be bumps along the way and they may get off the straight and narrow path (I know all about that!) but what school they go to isn't going to change any of that. Chill.

[Anonymous]

Yeah, I want this crystal ball of certainty. Can I ask you to help with the stocks I pick since I wish to become a millionaire in 7 years?

[Anonymous]

What does a crystal ball have to do with it? It's all about the parents not a school. AAP isn't going to teach my kids to enjoy learning or do it independently. We value education, recognize there is more than one kind of intelligence and don't care if the kids don't go to an Ivy League school. Sure, there will be bumps along the way and they may get off the straight and narrow path (I know all about that!) but what school they go to isn't going to change any of that. Chill.

What is it about you as a parent that guarantees all your children will all be intelligent and successful 20 years from now? Is this something intrinsic like your unique DNA? Or is it a recipe?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

What does a crystal ball have to do with it? It's all about the parents not a school. AAP isn't going to teach my kids to enjoy learning or do it independently. We value education, recognize there is more than one kind of intelligence and don't care if the kids don't go to an Ivy League school. Sure, there will be bumps along the way and they may get off the straight and narrow path (I know all about that!) but what school they go to isn't going to change any of that. Chill.

What is it about you as a parent that guarantees all your children will all be intelligent and successful 20 years from now? Is this something intrinsic like your unique DNA? Or is it a recipe?

Of course there are no guarantees! But, their success in life will primarily be a result of parenting. What school they go is highly unlikely to make any difference - especially when there are sufficient educational opportunities at every single school in FCPS. Do you REALLY think that if your child doesn't get into the school of YOUR choice the child doomed to mediocrity? Do you really think the school makes that much of a difference? It doesn't.