Would the use of Everyday math turn you off?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I can only hope that all the EDM naysayers will not be applying to Potomac. Certainly increases the chances for my kids to be accepted.

The Head of The Potomac School, was involved in the development of EDM, yet even he has come to recognize its limitations. Potomac experimented with SM. Never heard about the outcome.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Teachers have been brainwashed by NCTM. However, if you gently introduce the brighter ones to better materials, like Singapore Math, they often change their minds.

ITA. NCTM is very strange group. I am not sure where their logic comes from.

NCTM is a "very strange group"? Are you a math teacher, professor of math education, or PhD-level mathematician? Genuinely curious here. Why do people on this forum think they (or NYC HOLD) know more about math education than the National Council or Teachers of Mathematics or the National Science Foundation?

Don't have the time or patience to go though this now. But riddle me this. The US is doing poorly in math compared to other developed nations, and we have this group, NCTM, which embraces wacky curricula like EDM and influences school boards. Other countries like Israel and Canada have tried our wacky curricula then kicked them out quickly when they realized they stink. Perhaps it is time for NCTM to go overseas and humbly ask what they are doing wrong.

Is doing poorly on what tests? Have you ever thought that the way other countries teach math rewards test-takers? I am betting a kid who takes EM taught well will test well and have a good grounding in flexible mathematical thinking. I think the problem in the US is not EM, it is a lot of math taught poorly so it does not instill good thinking OR rote memorization of algorithms-- the latter being the focus in many other countries.

[Anonymous]

To translate homogenous population for you, they mean no blacks or hispanics because they tend to lower scores. I must admit when I was in Singapore I did not see many hispanics and blacks. You never hear homogenous groups when it is whites and Asians because Asians score higher than whites.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Teachers have been brainwashed by NCTM. However, if you gently introduce the brighter ones to better materials, like Singapore Math, they often change their minds.

ITA. NCTM is very strange group. I am not sure where their logic comes from.

NCTM is a "very strange group"? Are you a math teacher, professor of math education, or PhD-level mathematician? Genuinely curious here. Why do people on this forum think they (or NYC HOLD) know more about math education than the National Council or Teachers of Mathematics or the National Science Foundation?

Don't have the time or patience to go though this now. But riddle me this. The US is doing poorly in math compared to other developed nations, and we have this group, NCTM, which embraces wacky curricula like EDM and influences school boards. Other countries like Israel and Canada have tried our wacky curricula then kicked them out quickly when they realized they stink. Perhaps it is time for NCTM to go overseas and humbly ask what they are doing wrong.

But TIMSS data don't bear out your assumptions, PP. EDM appeared in 1998, but the first TIMSS data, from 1995, already showed the U.S. lagging far behind other nations in math. In fact, TIMSS data from 2007 show significant improvement in American students' math achievement compared to other countries. These gains have appeared despite the use of reform or constructivist curricula such as EDM. The deficits, as has been historically true, appear related to SES. It's useful to bear in mind that many of the nations we trail in math achievement behind have significantly more homogeneous populations than we do. Dig into the TIMSS data a bit and this is fairly clear.

I am so SICK of this "homogeneous" population rhetoric. Singapore is not "homogeneous" Norway is, but how come Norway does so much worse than Singapore?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To translate homogenous population for you, they mean no blacks or hispanics because they tend to lower scores. I must admit when I was in Singapore I did not see many hispanics and blacks. You never hear homogenous groups when it is whites and Asians because Asians score higher than whites.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Teachers have been brainwashed by NCTM. However, if you gently introduce the brighter ones to better materials, like Singapore Math, they often change their minds.

ITA. NCTM is very strange group. I am not sure where their logic comes from.

NCTM is a "very strange group"? Are you a math teacher, professor of math education, or PhD-level mathematician? Genuinely curious here. Why do people on this forum think they (or NYC HOLD) know more about math education than the National Council or Teachers of Mathematics or the National Science Foundation?

Don't have the time or patience to go though this now. But riddle me this. The US is doing poorly in math compared to other developed nations, and we have this group, NCTM, which embraces wacky curricula like EDM and influences school boards. Other countries like Israel and Canada have tried our wacky curricula then kicked them out quickly when they realized they stink. Perhaps it is time for NCTM to go overseas and humbly ask what they are doing wrong.

But TIMSS data don't bear out your assumptions, PP. EDM appeared in 1998, but the first TIMSS data, from 1995, already showed the U.S. lagging far behind other nations in math. In fact, TIMSS data from 2007 show significant improvement in American students' math achievement compared to other countries. These gains have appeared despite the use of reform or constructivist curricula such as EDM. The deficits, as has been historically true, appear related to SES. It's useful to bear in mind that many of the nations we trail in math achievement behind have significantly more homogeneous populations than we do. Dig into the TIMSS data a bit and this is fairly clear.

I am so SICK of this "homogeneous" population rhetoric. Singapore is not "homogeneous" Norway is, but how come Norway does so much worse than Singapore?

ITA. The homogeneous word is essentially synonymous with no blacks or hispanics. Singapore has a mixed population of Chinese and people from Malaysia and India, plus a large immigrant population.

[Anonymous]

I initially mentioned the homogeneity factor. I was really referring to SES rather than to ethnic homogeneity. There is no official poverty level in Singapore, but take a look at their data:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/sn.html

Their unemployment rate is extremely low and there's a thriving economy. These things make a major difference in academic achievement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can only hope that all the EDM naysayers will not be applying to Potomac. Certainly increases the chances for my kids to be accepted.

The Head of The Potomac School, was involved in the development of EDM, yet even he has come to recognize its limitations. Potomac experimented with SM. Never heard about the outcome.

The Head of the Potomac School was on the faculty at the University of Chicago? That's impressive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can only hope that all the EDM naysayers will not be applying to Potomac. Certainly increases the chances for my kids to be accepted.

The Head of The Potomac School, was involved in the development of EDM, yet even he has come to recognize its limitations. Potomac experimented with SM. Never heard about the outcome.

The Head of the Potomac School was on the faculty at the University of Chicago? That's impressive.

?

[Anonymous]

1. A good text / curriculum needs to provide plentiful practice with repetition spaced out in time so students can build long-term memory and proficiency.

2. A text with good explanation and examples is a very important tool for those students who are able to find help at home. The direct effect is a productivity boost for the teacher because any learning support the student gets at home frees up teacher time to help the other students with one-on-one feedback. The absence of a text or a poor text acts as a drag on teacher productivity while a good text acts to reduce teacher workload.

3. A good text / curriculum makes it easier for all teachers by reducing prep time. This is especially helpful to the less motivated teachers in the workforce because they are generally less organized. Data shows there is as much variation in education quality from classroom to classroom as there is from school to school. (I have seen the differences in teacher motivation first hand during my years of being a math teacher volunteer in classrooms) Students in a class with a weakly motivated teacher and a weak text / curriculum are at a big disadvantage. More of these students will be behind at the end of the school year.

4. A weak (or new) teacher will not know what parts of a weak text need to be skipped or backfilled. Even though the math standards specify the curriculum content, many weak or new teachers will tend to teach directly from the text. This does not make them bad teachers, rather it simply reflects the variation in knowledge and skill in any large workforce, be it teachers or a high tech company. We can never expect to have the “perfect” workforce.

5. A good text / curriculum helps the new / weak teachers because of (1) the reduced prep time, (2) it lets them become productive more quickly, and (3) they can use the text to refresh their own math skills.

6. A more expert math teacher will discard the poor pieces of curriculum materials but when a teacher needs to replace a section of content in a poor text then the student that is out sick or the struggling student can’t find the material covered in class when he or she is looking back to the text for clarification or review. This penalizes the weaker students who utilize the text to help fill in comprehension gaps occurring during class time. It also penalizes students who are sick, or on vacation, or who get pulled out during math class for other reasons. So while the more able math teacher can omit the weak pieces of a text/curriculum it is not a cost free action.

7. A curriculum and supporting text that makes math learning more effective and efficient has three benefits: (1) it increases student confidence and success with Math, (2) it increases a teacher’s feeling of accomplishment and job satisfaction which may reduce turnover, and (3) better student learning makes parents happier which makes teachers happier at parent-teacher conferences.

8. More efficient classroom learning means more material can be covered in the school year with better long-term memory retention and/or reduces the need to increase math periods by stealing time from art, music, etc. The increased rigor of the revised math standards also argues for increased classroom efficiency.

9. It is far more practical to add extra sections of supplemental material to a well organized text in order to match the math standards than it will be to compensate for poor structure, inadequate examples or insufficient practice problems in a poorly organized text. .... The most effective teachers can identify the weaknesses of a curriculum / text. For example, some will eliminate large chunks of the TERC curriculum and replace it with materials from other sources. This is labor intensive and unfortunately the need to do so further increases the quality variation from classroom to classroom. Teachers need a high quality baseline curriculum that is well structured, has examples, and plenty of practice problems for the students. Teachers can then supplement with fun math activities (there are lots of them) as time permits. ..


By David Orbis 8/09 (edited)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:1. A good text / curriculum needs to provide plentiful practice with repetition spaced out in time so students can build long-term memory and proficiency.

2. A text with good explanation and examples is a very important tool for those students who are able to find help at home. The direct effect is a productivity boost for the teacher because any learning support the student gets at home frees up teacher time to help the other students with one-on-one feedback. The absence of a text or a poor text acts as a drag on teacher productivity while a good text acts to reduce teacher workload.

3. A good text / curriculum makes it easier for all teachers by reducing prep time. This is especially helpful to the less motivated teachers in the workforce because they are generally less organized. Data shows there is as much variation in education quality from classroom to classroom as there is from school to school. (I have seen the differences in teacher motivation first hand during my years of being a math teacher volunteer in classrooms) Students in a class with a weakly motivated teacher and a weak text / curriculum are at a big disadvantage. More of these students will be behind at the end of the school year.

4. A weak (or new) teacher will not know what parts of a weak text need to be skipped or backfilled. Even though the math standards specify the curriculum content, many weak or new teachers will tend to teach directly from the text. This does not make them bad teachers, rather it simply reflects the variation in knowledge and skill in any large workforce, be it teachers or a high tech company. We can never expect to have the “perfect” workforce.

5. A good text / curriculum helps the new / weak teachers because of (1) the reduced prep time, (2) it lets them become productive more quickly, and (3) they can use the text to refresh their own math skills.

6. A more expert math teacher will discard the poor pieces of curriculum materials but when a teacher needs to replace a section of content in a poor text then the student that is out sick or the struggling student can’t find the material covered in class when he or she is looking back to the text for clarification or review. This penalizes the weaker students who utilize the text to help fill in comprehension gaps occurring during class time. It also penalizes students who are sick, or on vacation, or who get pulled out during math class for other reasons. So while the more able math teacher can omit the weak pieces of a text/curriculum it is not a cost free action.

7. A curriculum and supporting text that makes math learning more effective and efficient has three benefits: (1) it increases student confidence and success with Math, (2) it increases a teacher’s feeling of accomplishment and job satisfaction which may reduce turnover, and (3) better student learning makes parents happier which makes teachers happier at parent-teacher conferences.

8. More efficient classroom learning means more material can be covered in the school year with better long-term memory retention and/or reduces the need to increase math periods by stealing time from art, music, etc. The increased rigor of the revised math standards also argues for increased classroom efficiency.

9. It is far more practical to add extra sections of supplemental material to a well organized text in order to match the math standards than it will be to compensate for poor structure, inadequate examples or insufficient practice problems in a poorly organized text. .... The most effective teachers can identify the weaknesses of a curriculum / text. For example, some will eliminate large chunks of the TERC curriculum and replace it with materials from other sources. This is labor intensive and unfortunately the need to do so further increases the quality variation from classroom to classroom. Teachers need a high quality baseline curriculum that is well structured, has examples, and plenty of practice problems for the students. Teachers can then supplement with fun math activities (there are lots of them) as time permits. ..


By David Orbis 8/09 (edited)

Interesting points. But really, a good textbook is one that studies show teach kids math better than other textbooks. Like Singapore Math.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1. A good text / curriculum needs to provide plentiful practice with repetition spaced out in time so students can build long-term memory and proficiency.

2. A text with good explanation and examples is a very important tool for those students who are able to find help at home. The direct effect is a productivity boost for the teacher because any learning support the student gets at home frees up teacher time to help the other students with one-on-one feedback. The absence of a text or a poor text acts as a drag on teacher productivity while a good text acts to reduce teacher workload.

3. A good text / curriculum makes it easier for all teachers by reducing prep time. This is especially helpful to the less motivated teachers in the workforce because they are generally less organized. Data shows there is as much variation in education quality from classroom to classroom as there is from school to school. (I have seen the differences in teacher motivation first hand during my years of being a math teacher volunteer in classrooms) Students in a class with a weakly motivated teacher and a weak text / curriculum are at a big disadvantage. More of these students will be behind at the end of the school year.

4. A weak (or new) teacher will not know what parts of a weak text need to be skipped or backfilled. Even though the math standards specify the curriculum content, many weak or new teachers will tend to teach directly from the text. This does not make them bad teachers, rather it simply reflects the variation in knowledge and skill in any large workforce, be it teachers or a high tech company. We can never expect to have the “perfect” workforce.

5. A good text / curriculum helps the new / weak teachers because of (1) the reduced prep time, (2) it lets them become productive more quickly, and (3) they can use the text to refresh their own math skills.

6. A more expert math teacher will discard the poor pieces of curriculum materials but when a teacher needs to replace a section of content in a poor text then the student that is out sick or the struggling student can’t find the material covered in class when he or she is looking back to the text for clarification or review. This penalizes the weaker students who utilize the text to help fill in comprehension gaps occurring during class time. It also penalizes students who are sick, or on vacation, or who get pulled out during math class for other reasons. So while the more able math teacher can omit the weak pieces of a text/curriculum it is not a cost free action.

7. A curriculum and supporting text that makes math learning more effective and efficient has three benefits: (1) it increases student confidence and success with Math, (2) it increases a teacher’s feeling of accomplishment and job satisfaction which may reduce turnover, and (3) better student learning makes parents happier which makes teachers happier at parent-teacher conferences.

8. More efficient classroom learning means more material can be covered in the school year with better long-term memory retention and/or reduces the need to increase math periods by stealing time from art, music, etc. The increased rigor of the revised math standards also argues for increased classroom efficiency.

9. It is far more practical to add extra sections of supplemental material to a well organized text in order to match the math standards than it will be to compensate for poor structure, inadequate examples or insufficient practice problems in a poorly organized text. .... The most effective teachers can identify the weaknesses of a curriculum / text. For example, some will eliminate large chunks of the TERC curriculum and replace it with materials from other sources. This is labor intensive and unfortunately the need to do so further increases the quality variation from classroom to classroom. Teachers need a high quality baseline curriculum that is well structured, has examples, and plenty of practice problems for the students. Teachers can then supplement with fun math activities (there are lots of them) as time permits. ..


By David Orbis 8/09 (edited)

Interesting points. But really, a good textbook is one that studies show teach kids math better than other textbooks. Like Singapore Math.

ITA

[Anonymous]

By almost all of the above points, EDM is not a good text.

[Anonymous]

EDM is easier to teach and does not require as much teacher training. That is the reason why it was so appealing in schools. Singapore math has a much greater commitment needed on the part of the teachers to be trained in it. But once you do it is a MUCH better program for the students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:EDM is easier to teach and does not require as much teacher training. That is the reason why it was so appealing in schools. Singapore math has a much greater commitment needed on the part of the teachers to be trained in it. But once you do it is a MUCH better program for the students.

Do you have any data? Also, is it easier to teach because there is no teaching?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can only hope that all the EDM naysayers will not be applying to Potomac. Certainly increases the chances for my kids to be accepted.

The Head of The Potomac School, was involved in the development of EDM, yet even he has come to recognize its limitations. Potomac experimented with SM. Never heard about the outcome.

The website for the lower school (don't know about the other grades) certainly touts EDM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Interesting points. But really, a good textbook is one that studies show teach kids math better than other textbooks. Like Singapore Math.

Please provide links to these studies. Thanks.