Wisconsin avenue Giant development shut down again

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I really despise my neighbors who are so anti progress. l

Surely you're not serioius -- you really DESPISE your neighbors because you want more shopping? If you passionately pine for a Pottery Barn, that's okay, but do you "despise" your neighbors because they don't? If you're a Republican, do you despise those neighbors who vote Democratic, and vice versa? Don't you think it's possible to disagree with someone about many things, but still like them? I mean, this is over a shopping complex (with a Giant, no less), not some deeply-held moral principle. What ever happened to respectful, reasoned discussion on the sidewalk or over the back fence? Have you tried to understand your neighbors' concerns about this project and taken time to explain your views to them? To find something you could all support? (Development disputes usually reach Goldilocks compromises.) And if you truly do despise your neighbors, that's rather sad.

[Anonymous]

"When the old farts die, as they surely must soon (lookin' at you Old-Lady-I-Hardly-Paid-Anything-Because-Dirt-Was-Cheap-In-My-Day), maybe CP can loose the snooze."

Isn't it great to have such diverse neighborhoods in this area? If U wnat to be an Urbanist yUpster, U can live on U Street. If an upscale, outdoor shopping mall is more your taste, there's Friendship Heights and if you crave more restaurant choices than you'll ever have time for, downtown Bethesda may be just right for you. If you want density (with snooze), there's Van Ness. But not every place needs to become like every other place, as denizens of the Palisades and Chevy Chase DC would probably agree.

As for us Cleveland Parkers, we're not old fogeys and we have growing kids (well, maybe the kids would consider us old fogeys). We chose CP for the "village in the city" and, God willing, hope to be here for a long time!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Most of the people in CP that don't want this development don't know how to use the internet."

I live in Cleveland Park. I even know how to use the Internet. I have kids who walk to school, parks, shops and other places. Most of my neighbors have school age kids, too, but we also value the fact that our neighborhood has a diversity of ages and new and long-time residents. Like our neighborhs, we support thoughtful growth but want a safe environment for our kids to walk -- like other communities we already have problems with a lot of through traffic on narrow side streets and a shortage of street parking, particularly near the commercial corridors. Many of us non-old timers owe a debt to the neighborhood's long tradition of civic activism -- those who deflected the proposed highways in the 1960s, who saved McLean Gardens from being razed in the 1970s and 80s, who created the CP historic district later and who preserved Rosedale and Tregaron as DC's first land conservancies open to all in this decade. These efforts required hard, sustained work and were often characterized as a false choice between "no change" and "progress." CP would not be the livable community that it is today without these efforts. (T-shirts designed by John Eaton students proudly call Cleveland Park a "village in the city"). I support a modern Giant store, but also want development that is consistent with the DC Comprehensive Plan requirements.

The damn shame is that McLean gardens is butt ugly and too isolated from the less-sucky parts of CP to deserve to survive for any reason other than that it represents an important moment in our country's history. Of course, anything built in the 70s and 80s might well have sucked worse...

Put me down as another who tried CP but couldn't stand it.

McLean gardens isn't that bad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Excuse me, but the present Comprehensive Plan was "codified" by the DC Council (including Vince Gray) after Fenty was elected. Surely one can do better than racially-charged references to "white flight."

Until the current rewrite is complete, the old, outdated Comp Plan is essentially still in effect. But yes, those who oppose the Giant have been fighting a retreating battle for over a decade.

Does anyone recall the initial plans that had two stories, Wisconsin Ave retail and ample parking? The opponents have conceded that even a watered down plan that would be more dense would be acceptable. Maybe if thay hadn't fought so vociferously in 1999 an 2000, the neighborhood could have already had a retail center that was low scale and community serving. Instead, it has a lingering empty block (and growing) that will stay that way until either Giant wins the current appeal or the community fully supports a viable plan in the future. Given the existence of 8 story buildings in the immediate vicinity, I would posit that if the appeal isn't withdrawn, the next set of plans proposed in 3 years will be consistent with the built environment immediately across and behind the site.

You get what you wish for, or not.

[Anonymous]

If Giant weren't in material breach of its 2002 agreement with the DC government and the local citizens association, there would have been a modern supermarket (alas, a Giant) by now. Giant was once a good company when Izzy Cohen owned them, but under Ahol they have steadily declined and tripped all over themselves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Most of them don't even live in the neighborhood anymore, or at least are not registered DC voters.

Where do they all live? Florida?

[Anonymous]

Yes, several are legal residents of Florida, Delaware, Maine, for tax purposes.

It is galling.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes, several are legal residents of Florida, Delaware, Maine, for tax purposes.

It is galling.

With all respect, you don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about.

[Anonymous]

I hear the Giant is closing it parking to the public. They are going to charge for parking and if you use the Giant you will get a discount...like a dollar for an hour.

[Anonymous]

Historic preservation boards are the death of a city. Inhabited by no talent hacks. Go to a design school for 5 years, learn how to creatively use space, work some place for 5 years, study, take your exam, get your stamp, then copy the work of others b/c you can't design. I know let's make that Giant building and parking lot historic.

[Anonymous]

With all respect, you don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about.

There is a resident of Lowell Street who led the way on this neighborhood fight. She is not a resident of the District any longer. Yet, she still fights this fight and does so in the name of "the good of the community".

If you have followed this since 1999, you know who I am talking about. There are many older Cleveland Park residents who are not legal taxpayers in the District any longer.

It is galling.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Historic preservation boards are the death of a city. Inhabited by no talent hacks. Go to a design school for 5 years, learn how to creatively use space, work some place for 5 years, study, take your exam, get your stamp, then copy the work of others b/c you can't design. I know let's make that Giant building and parking lot historic.

They did that already, but only used it as a negotiation ploy. They withdrew the application in 2002.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I hear the Giant is closing it parking to the public. They are going to charge for parking and if you use the Giant you will get a discount...like a dollar for an hour.

Maybe if those who opposed the initial development had thought outside the box, they could have compelled Giant to allow patrons from the nearby restaurants to use their lot, rather than park on the neighborhood streets. It is Giant's property. There is no reason they should be providing this amenity to the community for free, particularly when there are people fighting it. Good for them for either making some money or encouraging those patrons to park in the neighborhood.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hear the Giant is closing it parking to the public. They are going to charge for parking and if you use the Giant you will get a discount...like a dollar for an hour.

Maybe if those who opposed the initial development had thought outside the box, they could have compelled Giant to allow patrons from the nearby restaurants to use their lot, rather than park on the neighborhood streets. It is Giant's property. There is no reason they should be providing this amenity to the community for free, particularly when there are people fighting it. Good for them for either making some money or encouraging those patrons to park in the neighborhood.

Noting that something like 90% of Giant's spaces are filled in the evening (esp. Friday and Saturday) by patrons going to 2 Amys, Cactus, etc, when stores on Giant's property are shuttered and the present store is "under-performing", the ANC and residents asked Giant to build more parking in their new development, even if they charge off-site patrons. Instead, Giant got the zoning board to agree to less off-street parking than the zoning code minimums. (Giant said that less parking was needed because so many patrons would take the bus to get there - ha!). There may be a train wreck for off-site restaurants coming. The blocks nearest Wisconsin are already parked up at night, especially in McLean Gardens, and DDOT is considering extending parking permit hours later in the evening and/or making some blocks residents only like they do in neighbrhoods close to downtown Bethesda.

[Anonymous]

Look, if you build more parking, all the new spaces will be filled and more people will come to park. You know...if you build it, they will come. That is the way it works. Studies prove it. The new thing is to increase density and reduce parking and car access. They are charging cars to drive in downtown areas in Europe and closing road.