NNAT question pattern

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

good, as long as we established that you did it because you believe AAP program is superior i'm fine with it. i only have problems with those who prep because they think their kids are gifted and "belong" in AAP - that's cheating in my books.

This doesn't make any sense to me. Anyone who preps their kid for this test must think BOTH of these things: AAP is a superior program, AND their child belongs in AAP. Why would you prep if you didn't think your kid belonged in AAP? AAP is supposed to be for gifted kids - if you are prepping your child for a test to get him into a gifted program, you must think he is gifted, no? The alternative line of reasoning is something like "my kid isn't gifted and doesn't really belong in the program, but I want to prep for the test and get him in there with all the gifted kids because it's such a great program."

It seems you should be opposed to test prep across the board or not at all. How can you decide based on the parent's motivation for prepping, that one motivation is fine and the other is "cheating?"

I'm not opposed to test prep, btw. I don't care how much or little other people prep their kids. I care only how my child does on the test, and I don't think other kids prepping affects that. The percentile scores are nationally scaled. A very small group of these kids are prepped, and that is not going to affect the national percentiles.

This is northern VA. Almost everyone thinks thier kid is gifted, and even if they don't, they think that their kid is entitled to the same coursework that the gifted kids are getting.
But I would argue that they don't know what they're signing up for. My daughter is in her 4th year of AAP. Each year, her class has had more than it's fair share of kids with ADHD, social difficulties, and spectrum behaviors (all of which are actually more common in gifted kids than in the general population). She is also in a class of 30 kids last year and 31 kids this year. The pace and further differentiation has been wonderful, but it is not the land of milk and honey that people on this board seem to think it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is one line of thought on 'prepping' for NNAT.

Talking to the child about what kind of questions to expect, can certainly help prevent total blow ups ( Mommy I just did not understand what was I supposed to do).

But, after seeing some of my fellow Tiger Mom's trying to prep they child - I am a 100% sure that overall score will not change that much. If you child is a 99% one, then that is what he or she will get.

But if your child is a 85% caliber ( which is great in itself), its nearly impossible to prep this child to get a 99%.
And I strongly believe that the parent should talk to the child about what to expect in these test. I have no faith in the ability of FCPS to deliver consistent clear instructions to all the kids. There will be one teacher who is not clear enough and as luck would have it - your child will be in that class.

These kind of generalizations, without any supporting data are an insult to everyone's intelligence. Without a "prepped" group and a control group, and a measure between, you cannot make this kind of statement and present it as fact. Try, "in my limited opinion which is not substatiated by any marginally scientific data" as a preface next time.

As to my personal experience, I have now prepped two of my children for the NNAT and both have done outstanding. When they began the practice tests, their scores were good, missing 6 or 7 questions out of 39 or so. By the time we were done, they recognized patterns of questions (there are only so many ways to show patterns on a line, a checker board with a missing piece, etc.) knew a process of eliminating wrong answers first and closely studing the last two, when to guess, when to skip a question that was taking too long (but never leaving a blank), etc. At that point they were missing only an occasional answer. While I would agree that moving a 25%'er to 99% is a tall task, my personal experience (not scientific) is that the prep made my initially good performing kids confident and ready, and with excellent results. I agree with the Tiger Mom who said what is right for your family is fine, and what is right for hers (and mine) is our business. I could not care less if my kid “skews” the test because he was prepared and worked hard to do well. In our family, the importance of hard work, preparation, and good study habits are stressed, and if they just happen to lead to good performance so be it. There are many cultures that stress this these habits and others that do not, and I think the results speak for themselves.

You have too much time on your hand. My only point was that prep if you want to - nothing wrong with that. But I doubt overall results will increase that much. You are fine to take a different view. And I do hope I insulted your intelligence, cause your point on hard work, blah, blah was moronic.

[Anonymous]

You have too much time on your hand. My only point was that prep if you want to - nothing wrong with that. But I doubt overall results will increase that much. You are fine to take a different view. And I do hope I insulted your intelligence, cause your point on hard work, blah, blah was moronic.

I was with you on a few of your points, until that last bit. You hope you insulted another poster?? No wonder we can't have a civil discussion anywhere on DCUM.

[Anonymous]

PP - as you noticed, I was trying VERY hard to be civil - till this poster comes and claims that I am trying insult 'everyone's' intelligence ( please read again in case u missed it)- I was just trying to make sure this poster realized that there is no need to go there.

I think we agree on that. Best

[Anonymous]

You have too much time on your hand. My only point was that prep if you want to - nothing wrong with that. But I doubt overall results will increase that much. You are fine to take a different view. And I do hope I insulted your intelligence, cause your point on hard work, blah, blah was moronic.

followed by...

PP - as you noticed, I was trying VERY hard to be civil - till this poster comes and claims that I am trying insult 'everyone's' intelligence ( please read again in case u missed it)- I was just trying to make sure this poster realized that there is no need to go there.

...and this is you being civil? I can't imagine what you are like when you are not being civil. With your awsome deplomacy and debating skills you should go work the State Department.

[Anonymous]

Yes - these forums are indeed places where folks can through around hyperbole's like 'You are insulting everyone's intelligence' and whether you like it or not, that is a 'baseline' here.

If its not up to your standards please seek peace and civility elsewhere.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:


As to my personal experience, I have now prepped two of my children for the NNAT and both have done outstanding. When they began the practice tests, their scores were good, missing 6 or 7 questions out of 39 or so. By the time we were done, they recognized patterns of questions (there are only so many ways to show patterns on a line, a checker board with a missing piece, etc.) knew a process of eliminating wrong answers first and closely studing the last two, when to guess, when to skip a question that was taking too long (but never leaving a blank), etc. At that point they were missing only an occasional answer. .

The NNAT, or Naglieri Nonverbal Ability Test, is just that: a test of the child's ability.

Many children can learn how to answer the questions when taught how, but the idea of the test is to see how quickly a child can grasp a concept he or she has never seen before.

When a child practices taking the test ahead of time, the result is no longer a true measure of the child's ability.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The NNAT, or Naglieri Nonverbal Ability Test, is just that: a test of the child's ability.

Many children can learn how to answer the questions when taught how, but the idea of the test is to see how quickly a child can grasp a concept he or she has never seen before.

When a child practices taking the test ahead of time, the result is no longer a true measure of the child's ability.

You are absolutely correct.

And the central screening committee is very much aware of test prepping of 1st and 2nd graders. Thankfully students are not found Center-eligible simply due to test scores. If the work samples and/or the GBRS do not mesh with what some might consider artificially inflated test scores, the central screening committee takes that into consideration.

[Anonymous]

PP: great point. In all, I really think the process for AAP eligibility is as fair as it can get - for a county of FFX size.


We will always have folks who are proud of the fact that they raised the score of their DS by prepping, but looking at GBRS, work samples really completes the picture.

[Anonymous]

Exactly. Many parents here seem to think that the test scores are all you need. It's really part of the equation. Test scores, GBRS, Work samples.

[Anonymous]

And the cogat and nnat seem to be down weighted relative to gbrs, work samples, presumably because they know the scores are not that reliable for several reason, including potential test prep. WISC is not down weighted

[Anonymous]

The whole idea of prepping is just sad. Why wouldn't a parent want a fair assessment of their child's potential ability? There's always individual IQ tests as backup if they don't do well in group testing and you think your snowflake belongs in AAP.

Obviously prepping definitely games the system. Unfortunately some of those kids get through and then struggle in AAP. I guess others may not have problems but AAP teacher friends say there are definitely kids who get in who have lots of trouble keeping up. Also, I'm amazed that kids would need tutors - if your kid needs a tutor then they shouldn't be in AAP.

Thank goodness they use more than test scores with the amount of prepping that seems to be going on!

[Anonymous]

The whole idea of prepping is just sad. Why wouldn't a parent want a fair assessment of their child's potential ability? There's always individual IQ tests as backup if they don't do well in group testing and you think your snowflake belongs in AAP.

Obviously prepping definitely games the system. Unfortunately some of those kids get through and then struggle in AAP. I guess others may not have problems but AAP teacher friends say there are definitely kids who get in who have lots of trouble keeping up. Also, I'm amazed that kids would need tutors - if your kid needs a tutor then they shouldn't be in AAP.

Thank goodness they use more than test scores with the amount of prepping that seems to be going on!

The test isn't always a fair assessment. Some kids get stressed or nervous if the test format is unfamiliar. Some kids didn't hear the instructions clearly because they got distracted for a few seconds, and the teacher isn't allowed to repeat the instructions.

I wish I had prepped my kid! Her scores did not put her in the screening pool. I was really surprised, but I thought "Oh, well. That's that." Then the second grade teacher called me & pushed me to do a parent referral, so I did. She got in, and recently her 5th grade teacher told me she is one of the best math students in 5th grade (across 4 classes) and that she (the teacher) is working on giving her some additional challenges because she doesn't even have to work very hard in math right now. She has A's in her other subjects as well.

Clearly the "ability testing" did not reflect her ability. I think she got nervous & panicked a little bit. Her full-scale IQ on WISC is 132. If prep would have helped her relax and calmly & thoughtfully answered the questions, I have no problem with it. I wish I had done it b/c it's easier to get in via the pool (and less work!) than doing a referral. I will be prepping my younger child.

[Anonymous]

I think we are talking about two different kinds of prep here.
It's one thing to make sure a child understands the directions for the exam. It's totally different to go over and over the various types of questions to the point where the child is so familiar with the questions that she could answer them in her sleep.
In the second case, the test is not showing anything about the child's ability, just how well the child can memorize how to answer different types of questions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think we are talking about two different kinds of prep here.
It's one thing to make sure a child understands the directions for the exam. It's totally different to go over and over the various types of questions to the point where the child is so familiar with the questions that she could answer them in her sleep.
In the second case, the test is not showing anything about the child's ability, just how well the child can memorize how to answer different types of questions.

Now you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. Like, stealing is bad and wrong, unless you do it to feed your family, then it is ok.

The child who is prepped on instructions, and when to guess and when to skip a question, etc. (strategy) has an advantage over the field of those who do not receive this instruction. Understanding the instructions and the best way to manage through the exam is part of the test as well, otherwise the teacher would be free to provide the instructions as many times as necessary so that all the kids clearly understood them. As stated previously, they are not allowed to do this. The child who is repetitively trained my have a greater advantage yet, but both groups have a leg up on those who show up cold. Guess you are ok in increasing one kids advantage if it fits your definition of right and wrong.