St. Patrick's -- is it really worth $28,000 a year???

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Admitted for K and not sure if the price tag is worth it. Any thoughts on this school?

St. Pat's is a much better school for girls than boys. The boys that can usually punch-out for STA (4th grade) or Landon (3rd/4th grade). The school knows it's been hemorrhaging boys and is trying to make adjustments. Not sure how that's working out though. Good luck.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Admitted for K and not sure if the price tag is worth it. Any thoughts on this school?

St. Pat's is a much better school for girls than boys. The boys that can usually punch-out for STA (4th grade) or Landon (3rd/4th grade). The school knows it's been hemorrhaging boys and is trying to make adjustments. Not sure how that's working out though. Good luck.

Interesting. Are you a parent at St. Pats? I am and I do wonder about this. We have a boy there and somewhat agree with what you are saying. How do you know the school is aware of this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:St. Pat's is a very sweet little school -- especially for N, JK. Warm, nurturing. Academics get weaker the higher up you go. The math curriculum is very, very weak, but that's true at many other schools as well. Good luck.

This person clearly doesn't know much about St. Pats since there is no "JK." Also, the AD at STA has said that the boys coming from St. Patricks are consistenly the best prepared from any other schools.

Of course St. Pat's has a JK -- both my kids attended it. They just call it PK.

Sure your kids attended St. Pat's "JK." Thanks for the laugh...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Admitted for K and not sure if the price tag is worth it. Any thoughts on this school?

St. Pat's is a much better school for girls than boys. The boys that can usually punch-out for STA (4th grade) or Landon (3rd/4th grade). The school knows it's been hemorrhaging boys and is trying to make adjustments. Not sure how that's working out though. Good luck.

Interesting. Are you a parent at St. Pats? I am and I do wonder about this. We have a boy there and somewhat agree with what you are saying. How do you know the school is aware of this?

Former St. Pat's parent. The school is trying to promote its sports program without much success. In the past, the administration has claimed to be studying the differences in the ways boys/girls learn and adjusting its approach. Haven't really followed it since we left, though. If you have an "active" boy (this is a pejorative term at St. Pat's) or one that's at all interested in sports, start looking around.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:St. Pat's is a very sweet little school -- especially for N, JK. Warm, nurturing. Academics get weaker the higher up you go. The math curriculum is very, very weak, but that's true at many other schools as well. Good luck.

This person clearly doesn't know much about St. Pats since there is no "JK." Also, the AD at STA has said that the boys coming from St. Patricks are consistenly the best prepared from any other schools.

Of course St. Pat's has a JK -- both my kids attended it. They just call it PK.

Sure your kids attended St. Pat's "JK." Thanks for the laugh...

Glad to supply the laugh, but not sure what's so funny. St. Pat's has two "grades" below Kindergarten. They call them Nursery and Pre-K (PK). Some other schools call PK Junior Kindergarten or JK. One letter is different, but the "grade" level is the same.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:yes i have the same impression that the st. pat's curriculum is well thought out and rigorous. they don't use everyday math, for ex. i think too many of these lower schools are not demanding enough of these bright little beings.

St. Pat's used to use Everyday Math, but the school has switched to an even less rigorous math program called Investigations in Number, Data, and Space, at least through 4th grade. In its Curriculum Focal Points, the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics emphasizes the need for 4th graders to "develop fluency with efficient procedures, including the standard algorithm, for multiplying whole numbers ..." Investigations does not stress the standard algorithm, instead diverting students into non-scalable procedures that are largely a waste of time. In keeping with the curriculum it chose, St. Pat's actively discourages students from using the standard algorithm in favor of asking students to "solve problems in ways that make sense to them ..." "It is important to note that the standard algorithm is not always the most efficient ..." (quotes taken from a St. Pat's newsletter to parents called "Frequently Asked Questions about Mathematics in the Lower School" -- which was published following widespread parent complaints about the poor quality of the math program.) Around the 2nd or 3rd grade you'll start asking yourself why your St. Pat's student is running around the house cutting up magazines for math homework and still struggles with the basic math facts -- and you'll make a bee-line for the Kumon workbook section at the B&N.

Not true at all. I have a DS in the upper school who has been at St Pats since he was a small child and his math skills are advanced, along with a large group of his classmates. He scored 98% on math on the ERB, independent schools (so compared to other DC privates). In 2nd and 3rd he was encouraged to memorize his multiplication tables and, they regularly give the "Math Minute" and later the "Fantastic Five." He has never taken math anywhere but St Pats. A St Alban's teacher has told me the St Pats boys who come in at 7th grade are some of the BEST prepared boys in mathematics they get. Additionaly, you are wrong about the Math curriculum. Its partly based on Investigations but also incorporates several other mathematic teachings, methods and styles, inculding for instance Cathy Fosnot's. Its a very well-thought out and executed math program.

As for active or sports, my son plays on elite travel teams and regular sports teams in Lacrosse, Basketball, Football and Soccer, all through outside organizations. He would still have to play through other organizations if he were at St Alban's although he would have more concentrated sport specific Phys ed classes. He is a very good athlete. He is not a hyperactive or badly behaved boy, and St Pats does have some of those, but he is a squirmy boy who needs to be re-directed to focus and pay attention at times. His teachers have all been good at handling this and free time and outside recess certainly contribute to that. This year I think they added a free/recess period for that reason. I will agree, however, that badly bahved boys or girls are expected to shape up and learn better, more contolled behavior. I happen to think that is a VERY good thing and most schools would agree.

When we looked at St Alban's for 4th grade they told us there was no need as far as they were concerned to apply before 7th as he would get an equal education and sports team experience at St Pats between 4th and 6th. According to everyone we have talked to, both they, and many other schools, love to get St Pats students when they are ready to apply out.

Truly, from an academic prespective it is an excellent education I also am very pleased with the character building exercises and student social mores. There are other things I might like them to work on, such as more forcused Phys Ed, letting younger kids try out for teams, and perhaps a few other things. The big donors do get more attention and the best treatment but, that is true at all private schools. Overall, we could not be happier with his experience and growth there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:yes i have the same impression that the st. pat's curriculum is well thought out and rigorous. they don't use everyday math, for ex. i think too many of these lower schools are not demanding enough of these bright little beings.

St. Pat's used to use Everyday Math, but the school has switched to an even less rigorous math program called Investigations in Number, Data, and Space, at least through 4th grade. In its Curriculum Focal Points, the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics emphasizes the need for 4th graders to "develop fluency with efficient procedures, including the standard algorithm, for multiplying whole numbers ..." Investigations does not stress the standard algorithm, instead diverting students into non-scalable procedures that are largely a waste of time. In keeping with the curriculum it chose, St. Pat's actively discourages students from using the standard algorithm in favor of asking students to "solve problems in ways that make sense to them ..." "It is important to note that the standard algorithm is not always the most efficient ..." (quotes taken from a St. Pat's newsletter to parents called "Frequently Asked Questions about Mathematics in the Lower School" -- which was published following widespread parent complaints about the poor quality of the math program.) Around the 2nd or 3rd grade you'll start asking yourself why your St. Pat's student is running around the house cutting up magazines for math homework and still struggles with the basic math facts -- and you'll make a bee-line for the Kumon workbook section at the B&N.

Not true at all. I have a DS in the upper school who has been at St Pats since he was a small child and his math skills are advanced, along with a large group of his classmates. He scored 98% on math on the ERB, independent schools (so compared to other DC privates). In 2nd and 3rd he was encouraged to memorize his multiplication tables and, they regularly give the "Math Minute" and later the "Fantastic Five." He has never taken math anywhere but St Pats. A St Alban's teacher has told me the St Pats boys who come in at 7th grade are some of the BEST prepared boys in mathematics they get. Additionaly, you are wrong about the Math curriculum. Its partly based on Investigations but also incorporates several other mathematic teachings, methods and styles, inculding for instance Cathy Fosnot's. Its a very well-thought out and executed math program.

As for active or sports, my son plays on elite travel teams and regular sports teams in Lacrosse, Basketball, Football and Soccer, all through outside organizations. He would still have to play through other organizations if he were at St Alban's although he would have more concentrated sport specific Phys ed classes. He is a very good athlete. He is not a hyperactive or badly behaved boy, and St Pats does have some of those, but he is a squirmy boy who needs to be re-directed to focus and pay attention at times. His teachers have all been good at handling this and free time and outside recess certainly contribute to that. This year I think they added a free/recess period for that reason. I will agree, however, that badly bahved boys or girls are expected to shape up and learn better, more contolled behavior. I happen to think that is a VERY good thing and most schools would agree.

When we looked at St Alban's for 4th grade they told us there was no need as far as they were concerned to apply before 7th as he would get an equal education and sports team experience at St Pats between 4th and 6th. According to everyone we have talked to, both they, and many other schools, love to get St Pats students when they are ready to apply out.

Truly, from an academic prespective it is an excellent education I also am very pleased with the character building exercises and student social mores. There are other things I might like them to work on, such as more forcused Phys Ed, letting younger kids try out for teams, and perhaps a few other things. The big donors do get more attention and the best treatment but, that is true at all private schools. Overall, we could not be happier with his experience and growth there.

For anyone interested, here's a review of the Investigation's math curriculum that St. Pat's uses by a group of NY parents who were fighting to have it removed from their schools.

http://www.nychold.com/terc.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For anyone interested, here's a review of the Investigation's math curriculum that St. Pat's uses by a group of NY parents who were fighting to have it removed from their schools.

http://www.nychold.com/terc.html

Here are reports from the "What Works Clearinghouse":
http://ies.ed.gov/ncee/wwc/pdf/wwc_investigations_022409.pdf
http://ies.ed.gov/ncee/wwc/reports/topicarea.aspx?tid=04
http://ies.ed.gov/ncee/wwc/reports/topicarea.aspx?tid=03

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For anyone interested, here's a review of the Investigation's math curriculum that St. Pat's uses by a group of NY parents who were fighting to have it removed from their schools.

http://www.nychold.com/terc.html

Here are reports from the "What Works Clearinghouse":
http://ies.ed.gov/ncee/wwc/pdf/wwc_investigations_022409.pdf
http://ies.ed.gov/ncee/wwc/reports/topicarea.aspx?tid=04
http://ies.ed.gov/ncee/wwc/reports/topicarea.aspx?tid=03

Again, PP, the math curriculum at St Pats is only partly based on Investigations but also incorporates several other mathematic teachings, methods and styles, inculding for instance Cathy Fosnot's. Its a very well-thought out and executed math program not a cookie cutter prgram taken whole-hog from one teaching method.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Again, PP, the math curriculum at St Pats is only partly based on Investigations but also incorporates several other mathematic teachings, methods and styles, inculding for instance Cathy Fosnot's. Its a very well-thought out and executed math program not a cookie cutter prgram taken whole-hog from one teaching method.

Thanks for repeating your opinion in such large type. I'm sure you won't mind if others post links to information about the math programs on which St Patrick's is based. That way, we all can draw our own individual conclusions.

[Anonymous]

NP here --- wow. The review states about the TERC lessons that "They seriously mislead children because they attempt to avoid the concepts of carrying, borrowing, and common denominators."

Can this review be right? Why would any school want to do this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Again, PP, the math curriculum at St Pats is only partly based on Investigations but also incorporates several other mathematic teachings, methods and styles, inculding for instance Cathy Fosnot's. Its a very well-thought out and executed math program not a cookie cutter prgram taken whole-hog from one teaching method.

Thanks for repeating your opinion in such large type. I'm sure you won't mind if others post links to information about the math programs on which St Patrick's is based. That way, we all can draw our own individual conclusions.

Absolutely, but since you proceeded as if it were a program based wholly on Investigations, I thought maybe you were slightly presbyopic and I'd give you a little help by posting it to you in large sized type.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Again, PP, the math curriculum at St Pats is only partly based on Investigations but also incorporates several other mathematic teachings, methods and styles, inculding for instance Cathy Fosnot's. Its a very well-thought out and executed math program not a cookie cutter prgram taken whole-hog from one teaching method.

Thanks for repeating your opinion in such large type. I'm sure you won't mind if others post links to information about the math programs on which St Patrick's is based. That way, we all can draw our own individual conclusions.

More on St Pat's math program -- Investigations

The Washington Post on the controversy over Investigations in Loudon County http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/27/AR2008082700229.html

A website about parents trying to get rid of Investigations in Utah
http://www.oaknorton.com/imathstart.cfm

More than you ever wanted to know about Investigations from a Math Ph.D.
http://www.wgquirk.com/TERC.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP here --- wow. The review states about the TERC lessons that "They seriously mislead children because they attempt to avoid the concepts of carrying, borrowing, and common denominators."

Can this review be right? Why would any school want to do this?

I can't speak for the review, but I will tell you that at St. Pat's my DS was specifically told NOT to use borrowing/carrying in computing math problems.

[Anonymous]

Pre-K (PK) and JK are not the same thing. Pre-K is for 4 year olds. Junior K (JK) or Transitional K (TK) as some schools call it are typically for children with summer birthdays who are five before Sept 1 (most school's cutoff for K) or those with fall birthdays who are not "ready" for K.