Middlebury Suffering with larger class sizes and enrollment

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sounds about right. They need the money, bad.

Ah, the Middlebury troll is back.

Middlebury has zero financial problems, has never had any and likely never will. They are in the top 50 or so schools in the country in terms of endowment (larger than U Miami for example) with more resources per student than schools such as Cornell, Brown, Northwestern, Chicago.

Middlebury has had a small nagging deficit for awhile because Laurie Patton preferred to just ignore it. Baucomb quickly made the right decision on MIIS and I suspect that it will quickly disappear. Even if it didn't the actual budget effect is small kind of like their $1.6B endowment functioning more like a $1.4B endowment. Middlebury also draws conservatively from their endowment, taking a full point less (4.5-5.0%) than peer schools like Colby for example.

It factually has a deficit that president Baucom is working to fix. As an alum, it’s tiring seeing threads delude themselves that there’s anything but a deficit.

Nobody said it wasn't a deficit but it is a meaningless one except for being a bit embarrassing. As to delusion, the only delusion here is you pretending to be a Middlebury Alum.

So meaningless the president immediately needed to address it and then chose to shut down MIIS? This is the concern of much of MAA, so I’m not sure why you’re brushing it off as if it hasn’t hemorrhaged the institution.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sounds about right. They need the money, bad.

Ah, the Middlebury troll is back.

Middlebury has zero financial problems, has never had any and likely never will. They are in the top 50 or so schools in the country in terms of endowment (larger than U Miami for example) with more resources per student than schools such as Cornell, Brown, Northwestern, Chicago.

Middlebury has had a small nagging deficit for awhile because Laurie Patton preferred to just ignore it. Baucomb quickly made the right decision on MIIS and I suspect that it will quickly disappear. Even if it didn't the actual budget effect is small kind of like their $1.6B endowment functioning more like a $1.4B endowment. Middlebury also draws conservatively from their endowment, taking a full point less (4.5-5.0%) than peer schools like Colby for example.

It factually has a deficit that president baucom is working to fix. As an alum, it’s tiring seeing threads delude themselves that there’s anything but a deficit.

+1, I love midd. I donate to Midd as a proud parent, but the institution missed out on a decade and a half of financial glory that peer lacs have reached (Swat, Pomona, Williams, and Amherst all passing the three billion dollar endowment mark). It has also made poor enrollment decisions that have helped erode campus culture. I have a DS at Midd and a DD at Williams, and a nephew at Pomona-the differences in resources between midd and the latter two are night and day. It’s a wonderful school but you have to face reality

You had me until this: "the differences in resources between midd and the latter two are night and day." What differences are night and day?

[Anonymous]

While I’m sure there are some larger intro courses, especially for Econ, my 2nd year Midd student has consistently had small classes with super accessible professors. She hadn’t had to bring her own chair anywhere and is getting the full slac experience we’re paying for, I’d take this article with a grain of salt

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sounds about right. They need the money, bad.

Ah, the Middlebury troll is back.

Middlebury has zero financial problems, has never had any and likely never will. They are in the top 50 or so schools in the country in terms of endowment (larger than U Miami for example) with more resources per student than schools such as Cornell, Brown, Northwestern, Chicago.

Middlebury has had a small nagging deficit for awhile because Laurie Patton preferred to just ignore it. Baucomb quickly made the right decision on MIIS and I suspect that it will quickly disappear. Even if it didn't the actual budget effect is small kind of like their $1.6B endowment functioning more like a $1.4B endowment. Middlebury also draws conservatively from their endowment, taking a full point less (4.5-5.0%) than peer schools like Colby for example.

It factually has a deficit that president Baucom is working to fix. As an alum, it’s tiring seeing threads delude themselves that there’s anything but a deficit.

Nobody said it wasn't a deficit but it is a meaningless one except for being a bit embarrassing. As to delusion, the only delusion here is you pretending to be a Middlebury Alum.

So meaningless the president immediately needed to address it and then chose to shut down MIIS? This is the concern of much of MAA, so I’m not sure why you’re brushing it off as if it hasn’t hemorrhaged the institution.

Look, we've went thorough this with you before.

Baucomb didn't need to address anything regarding the deficit because it is noise no matter how much you blither. Their investment grade credit rating shows exactly how much anyone cared about the deficit.

Baucomb did need to address MIIS because it was the cause of the deficits and has been under discussion among the Faculty from the day it was acquired. MIIS was acquired against the wishes of the Faculty and they have never been quiet about their feelings that it detracted from Middlebury's core mission. They were right and it was a failing on the part of Laurie Patton to not have addressed the situation sooner. The new president is addressing this not because it is any real financial burden but rather it is an issue that needs addressing and he likely doesn't want the noise during his tenure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Middlebury Campus newspaper has been taken over by a bunch of ultra-liberal snowflakes who complain, complain, complain. Sad.

They provide no evidence to support their claim. Of course it's an editorial, so I guess they can say whatever they want.

You can find a very quantitative article about this topic, but you just sound a bit allergic to journalism…
https://www.middleburycampus.com/article/2025/10/large-class-sizes-impact-faculty-student-experience

Journalism? The article you linked to notes that "more than a dozen students" complained about class size. More than a dozen out of 2,700. It goes on to talk about 3-4 classes that are over-enrolled--out of 850.

There is no data showing the AVERAGE class size has increased, or that the student/faculty ratio has increased significantly. Where's the response from the administration? Oh, that's right. They didn't interview them for this article.

Manufactured outrage.

The data is in the article from the office of institutional research…

Admin can also just refuse to answer students. You seem really secure in your lack of knowledge.

There are two pieces of information from this article that reference institutional research. The first is that overall enrollment has increased by 73 students over the past six years. The second is that there is a shift in what Middlebury students are majoring in. There is no data about the number of classes that have been over-enrolled, or by what percentages. A good journalist would request comment from the administration. If they didn't get an answer, they would note that in the story.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sounds about right. They need the money, bad.

Ah, the Middlebury troll is back.

Middlebury has zero financial problems, has never had any and likely never will. They are in the top 50 or so schools in the country in terms of endowment (larger than U Miami for example) with more resources per student than schools such as Cornell, Brown, Northwestern, Chicago.

Middlebury has had a small nagging deficit for awhile because Laurie Patton preferred to just ignore it. Baucomb quickly made the right decision on MIIS and I suspect that it will quickly disappear. Even if it didn't the actual budget effect is small kind of like their $1.6B endowment functioning more like a $1.4B endowment. Middlebury also draws conservatively from their endowment, taking a full point less (4.5-5.0%) than peer schools like Colby for example.

It factually has a deficit that president baucom is working to fix. As an alum, it’s tiring seeing threads delude themselves that there’s anything but a deficit.

+1, I love midd. I donate to Midd as a proud parent, but the institution missed out on a decade and a half of financial glory that peer lacs have reached (Swat, Pomona, Williams, and Amherst all passing the three billion dollar endowment mark). It has also made poor enrollment decisions that have helped erode campus culture. I have a DS at Midd and a DD at Williams, and a nephew at Pomona-the differences in resources between midd and the latter two are night and day. It’s a wonderful school but you have to face reality

You had me until this: "the differences in resources between midd and the latter two are night and day."

What differences are night and day?

Sure, 1) conference and research funding is more abundant. Williams particularly has nearly non-exhaustive research funding and apparently Pomona's student government recently voted to potentially reduce the amount per student, because they've never run out of the fund. 2) Both schools deal less with faculty retention issues than Middlebury and they attract more faculty 3) less staff cuts/issues than Middlebury. 4) International experiences and connections with Oxbridge, which Middlebury lacks. You can check the Humanities program but

Middlebury-CMRS students are Associate Members of Keble College, but are not enrolled at the University of Oxford, and neither Keble College nor the University of Oxford have any responsibility for academic, pastoral, accommodation or disciplinary matters relating to M-CMRS. Students on the program are housed in St Michael’s Hall, in Oxford city center.

and the college doesn't have the fellowship funding for oxbridge study like Williams and Pomona 5) More campus events from more notable scholars including Bill Nye for Parents weekend, Oren Case, Ruha Benjamin, Carl Phillips, Kwame Appiah, Siddhartha Mukherjee, Lonnie G. Bunch III, Sal Khan, and other big speakers all have passed by, while Midd tends to have more academics. 6) Midd is currently having a class size issue, while Williams can maintain a massive tutorials program 7) Both Williams and Pomona have Nobel prize alum. Midd doesn't 8) these exceptional faculty resources lead to better outcomes for graduate school and professional school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Middlebury Campus newspaper has been taken over by a bunch of ultra-liberal snowflakes who complain, complain, complain. Sad.

They provide no evidence to support their claim. Of course it's an editorial, so I guess they can say whatever they want.

You can find a very quantitative article about this topic, but you just sound a bit allergic to journalism…
https://www.middleburycampus.com/article/2025/10/large-class-sizes-impact-faculty-student-experience

Journalism? The article you linked to notes that "more than a dozen students" complained about class size. More than a dozen out of 2,700. It goes on to talk about 3-4 classes that are over-enrolled--out of 850.

There is no data showing the AVERAGE class size has increased, or that the student/faculty ratio has increased significantly. Where's the response from the administration? Oh, that's right. They didn't interview them for this article.

Manufactured outrage.

The data is in the article from the office of institutional research…

Admin can also just refuse to answer students. You seem really secure in your lack of knowledge.

There are two pieces of information from this article that reference institutional research. The first is that overall enrollment has increased by 73 students over the past six years. The second is that there is a shift in what Middlebury students are majoring in. There is no data about the number of classes that have been over-enrolled, or by what percentages. A good journalist would request comment from the administration. If they didn't get an answer, they would note that in the story.

You can check the OIR research yourself, but refuse to. That's a you problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sounds about right. They need the money, bad.

Ah, the Middlebury troll is back.

Middlebury has zero financial problems, has never had any and likely never will. They are in the top 50 or so schools in the country in terms of endowment (larger than U Miami for example) with more resources per student than schools such as Cornell, Brown, Northwestern, Chicago.

Middlebury has had a small nagging deficit for awhile because Laurie Patton preferred to just ignore it. Baucomb quickly made the right decision on MIIS and I suspect that it will quickly disappear. Even if it didn't the actual budget effect is small kind of like their $1.6B endowment functioning more like a $1.4B endowment. Middlebury also draws conservatively from their endowment, taking a full point less (4.5-5.0%) than peer schools like Colby for example.

It factually has a deficit that president Baucom is working to fix. As an alum, it’s tiring seeing threads delude themselves that there’s anything but a deficit.

Nobody said it wasn't a deficit but it is a meaningless one except for being a bit embarrassing. As to delusion, the only delusion here is you pretending to be a Middlebury Alum.

So meaningless the president immediately needed to address it and then chose to shut down MIIS? This is the concern of much of MAA, so I’m not sure why you’re brushing it off as if it hasn’t hemorrhaged the institution.

Look, we've went thorough this with you before.

Baucomb didn't need to address anything regarding the deficit because it is noise no matter how much you blither. Their investment grade credit rating shows exactly how much anyone cared about the deficit.

Baucomb did need to address MIIS because it was the cause of the deficits and has been under discussion among the Faculty from the day it was acquired. MIIS was acquired against the wishes of the Faculty and they have never been quiet about their feelings that it detracted from Middlebury's core mission. They were right and it was a failing on the part of Laurie Patton to not have addressed the situation sooner. The new president is addressing this not because it is any real financial burden but rather it is an issue that needs addressing and he likely doesn't want the noise during his tenure.

He addressed both. It's clear you don't actually engage with the MAA and are overly defensive about a truth. Middlebury is a great institution, but it isn't perfect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Middlebury is currently shrinking the humanities: "With several English Department faculty on leave, on associate status or recently retired, the department is facing staffing concerns, and no replacement positions have been approved by the Educational Affairs Committee (EAC). According to Professor of American Literature Brett Millier, who retired last spring, the department’s proposal for her replacement was denied.

These vacancies are occurring at a time when the value of an English degree is being questioned more broadly, a concern that Millier and Professor Emeritus of English and Creative Writing Jay Parini share as they retire alongside Professor of English Cates Baldridge. In the past two decades, many U.S. liberal arts colleges and universities have shifted focus towards STEM subjects."

That's sad. Middlebury's "Bread Loaf" department of English is literally I know about Middlebury's rep and I'm in a field outside humanities. It used to be their crown jewel and most famous dept so I'm surprised they're shrinking English dept at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here’s my unpopular opinion: does it really matter than an Econ seminar course or topology class have 10 kids in it? If the college limits enrollment in these courses, the students will complain next that they can’t finish their majors or there’s limited course availability. Students deserve to take the courses they want to, and if that means a few students may have to move a few chairs from one to the other, that’s a much better alternative to shutting students off and keeping 8 students in the class because of some desire for intimacy about a subject as mundane as econometrics.

Agree with you.

Based on my high school and flagship experience a class size of 30-ish is acceptable with motivated, interested learners.

What I got out of this article, bottom line, is that Middlebury needs to invest in new stackable chairs.

When I got my first dorm at a flagship, I flipped my wooden chair over and it had a name plaque on it that proved the chair was at least 40, if not 60, years old. My first government office in the 90s had old blond wood furniture that a government colleague of mine amusingly referred to as the "LBJ Great Society furniture".

Midd needs chairs. Cheaper than remedying bad p.r.

you can't compare the value proposition of a large, public school with a small liberal arts college. people pay vastly different prices for public college versus small, private LAC. you are essentially paying in part for the guarantee of mostly small seminar-style classes at middlebury. just like you are paying for larger seats and more leg room in business class versus economy when you fly. public school has the expectation of economy seating. you get to the same destination as business class, but with economy class you pay less and it's slightly more uncomfortable journey. same with LAC versus big state school.

Please do not equate the privilege of being able to bow out of class discussion when you feel off or skip lecture without it being analyzed as "more uncomfortable" by LAC grads. I sat up front in plenty of big classes, said hi to the prof, read all the readings, raised my hand and asked questions when I felt like it. I've always preferred to hear more from the profs/experts vs. bloviating peers. In my pricy MBA classes the section sizes were about 70, and we did a fair bit of case method discussions. This is not an economy class marker. It's an instructional delivery difference.

Maybe the sad thing is, just like business class these days, LACs are lower quality than they used to be at higher real prices.

Still think they need chairs. Kids shouldn't have to move furniture for class to start.

We are talking about undergrads. Why are you bloviating about your pricey MBA grad school class experience when it's not relevant to this discussion about college/undergrad class experience?

Btw - it's pricey, not pricy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I had to counter program every tour's narrative on small class size. Small class are great. But so are large classes. Do you want a rock star professor to teach you about the fall of Saigon or do you want to hear the lax bros thoughts who is sitting next to you?

+1

Good point. This is another reason to consider state flagship honors colleges where all students are admitted based on academic factors.

Right, because no state flagships recruit lax bros or have recruited athletes who are not admitted based on academic factors? Have you met any members of the OSU football team and tried to have a class discussion with them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Middlebury is currently shrinking the humanities: "With several English Department faculty on leave, on associate status or recently retired, the department is facing staffing concerns, and no replacement positions have been approved by the Educational Affairs Committee (EAC). According to Professor of American Literature Brett Millier, who retired last spring, the department’s proposal for her replacement was denied.

These vacancies are occurring at a time when the value of an English degree is being questioned more broadly, a concern that Millier and Professor Emeritus of English and Creative Writing Jay Parini share as they retire alongside Professor of English Cates Baldridge. In the past two decades, many U.S. liberal arts colleges and universities have shifted focus towards STEM subjects."

That's sad. Middlebury's "Bread Loaf" department of English is literally I know about Middlebury's rep and I'm in a field outside humanities. It used to be their crown jewel and most famous dept so I'm surprised they're shrinking English dept at all.

We're in an era where Uchicago is consolidating its humanities programs. No one is safe.

[Anonymous]

The kids on the school paper staff are unhappy that Midd is emphasizing STEM and not English (which is the major of choice for the paper staff).

Midd is offering more STEM and less humanities which is probably what their customers want. No different than what is happening at other NESCACs

[Anonymous]

Who cares Midd is in the absolute middle of nowhere. Its glory days paralleled Leave it to Beaver TV show. Who wants to pay big bucks for a struggling lac in the middle of cow pasture. No thanks!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I had to counter program every tour's narrative on small class size. Small class are great. But so are large classes. Do you want a rock star professor to teach you about the fall of Saigon or do you want to hear the lax bros thoughts who is sitting next to you?

+1

Good point. This is another reason to consider state flagship honors colleges where all students are admitted based on academic factors.

Right, because no state flagships recruit lax bros or have recruited athletes who are not admitted based on academic factors? Have you met any members of the OSU football team and tried to have a class discussion with them?

Wow ! You miss the point. Honors College students typically take several classes during their first two years which are for Honors College students only. If an athlete qualifies academically for the Honors College, then that student is allowed to take Honors College courses.