Rigor and Absences: New Harvard Policy

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The writers seem to blame it on careerism when really it’s just a lower quality student who doesn’t care about education. A lot of students are in it for the jobs, and don’t care at all about what they learn, shown by the rise of Econ and CS majors everywhere.

Maybe that is because you do not learn anything anyway….

I hire an avg of 8 kids from t10 schools every year for the last 15 years at an IB in NYC.
I’m yet to hire one who has learn enough. None of them know anything. I could care less if they took Class A, B or C. But if I give them a very complex real world problem, can they solve it? that is all I care about. I will teach them everything else I need them to know.

Investment Banking isn’t known for solving “complex real world problems”. If kids want to do that, they go work for companies trying to create nuclear fusion energy or DNA-based computer chips.

You know…actual complex real world problems. It’s laughable that you would combine that phrase and IB in the same sentence.

So, "trying" to do something that essentially no one actually does is the only "solving" complex real world problems? OK chum. Obviously IB work is super easy and that's why all the work is done for $7/day in Bangladesh slums.

It IS super easy intellectually. The difficult part is grinding out the hours and the feeling of being owned. Then when you get more senior (like 10 years down the road) being able to schmooze well enough. But no, you do not need to be able to solve problems to develop/update a financial model or format a pitch deck (usually at the explicit direction of someone senior...it doesn't even require copy editing, just incorporating someone else's comments).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The writers seem to blame it on careerism when really it’s just a lower quality student who doesn’t care about education. A lot of students are in it for the jobs, and don’t care at all about what they learn, shown by the rise of Econ and CS majors everywhere.

Maybe that is because you do not learn anything anyway….

I hire an avg of 8 kids from t10 schools every year for the last 15 years at an IB in NYC.
I’m yet to hire one who has learn enough. None of them know anything. I could care less if they took Class A, B or C. But if I give them a very complex real world problem, can they solve it? that is all I care about. I will teach them everything else I need them to know.

Investment Banking isn’t known for solving “complex real world problems”. If kids want to do that, they go work for companies trying to create nuclear fusion energy or DNA-based computer chips.

You know…actual complex real world problems. It’s laughable that you would combine that phrase and IB in the same sentence.

+1 the biggest "careerism" attitude is in the "pipeline to The Street" folks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The writers seem to blame it on careerism when really it’s just a lower quality student who doesn’t care about education. A lot of students are in it for the jobs, and don’t care at all about what they learn, shown by the rise of Econ and CS majors everywhere.

Maybe that is because you do not learn anything anyway….

I hire an avg of 8 kids from t10 schools every year for the last 15 years at an IB in NYC.
I’m yet to hire one who has learn enough. None of them know anything. I could care less if they took Class A, B or C. But if I give them a very complex real world problem, can they solve it? that is all I care about. I will teach them everything else I need them to know.

Investment Banking isn’t known for solving “complex real world problems”. If kids want to do that, they go work for companies trying to create nuclear fusion energy or DNA-based computer chips.

You know…actual complex real world problems. It’s laughable that you would combine that phrase and IB in the same sentence.

So, "trying" to do something that essentially no one actually does is the only "solving" complex real world problems? OK chum. Obviously IB work is super easy and that's why all the work is done for $7/day in Bangladesh slums.

It IS super easy intellectually. The difficult part is grinding out the hours and the feeling of being owned. Then when you get more senior (like 10 years down the road) being able to schmooze well enough. But no, you do not need to be able to solve problems to develop/update a financial model or format a pitch deck (usually at the explicit direction of someone senior...it doesn't even require copy editing, just incorporating someone else's comments).

+1 Just like many sales jobs. Just because you make a lot of money moving money around doesn't mean the job is complex or difficult or even useful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The writers seem to blame it on careerism when really it’s just a lower quality student who doesn’t care about education. A lot of students are in it for the jobs, and don’t care at all about what they learn, shown by the rise of Econ and CS majors everywhere.

Test optional

And unlike Dartmouth, Brown and Yale, Harvard remained test optional this year.

Lower quality students

Yep. Those lax bros gotta go!

Again, Harvard was test required.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Actual link: https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2024/12/4/fas-leaves-of-absence-entrepreneurs-athletes/

This is for optics and a few egotistical professors who like having a crowd. Students watched recorded lectures decades ago.

Faculty is jealous that the school admits hard working go-getters who don't have time to sit in a hall with 300 students to hear something they already have on YouTube.

The policy says that class is 3hd lecture and 9hr homework. Missing 2 weeks of class doesn't mean missing homework. If there was actually an academic problem, it would show up in grades, and the kids would be on leave for a academic probation, not for hurting admin's feelings.

At top worldwide Universities, as long as you pass your final exam/paper, you can do whatever you want all semester. Student aren't children.

A) that's absurd. Don't have time? Wtf are they doing, curing cancer? B) Attendance isn't taken in huge lecture classes. This refers to the section meetings where the teaching actually happens.

Section meetings are always optional.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sorry, kids. Creativity and interpersonal skills can’t be cultivated in a classroom. Analytical skills and quantitative maybe but what good is that without the rest? A well-trained robot could do it. Oh wait, these days we call that AI.

These kids aren’t en masse at LACs or T20 either. We usually get them by referral. If not, we comb through thousands of resumes and look for evidence of both. We’ve had unexpected success with 2 college mascots.

Also very good employees come from other countries who are just more straightforward, which is good in a work-environment. I don’t want 2 hours of arguing over Shakespeare vs modern foreign trade. We’re setting up a business division for crying out loud.

If they speak English. Big if .

[Anonymous]

Isnt Harvard home until the end of the month? 6 week winter break?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The writers seem to blame it on careerism when really it’s just a lower quality student who doesn’t care about education. A lot of students are in it for the jobs, and don’t care at all about what they learn, shown by the rise of Econ and CS majors everywhere.

Test optional

And unlike Dartmouth, Brown and Yale, Harvard remained test optional this year.

Lower quality students

Harvard is test required this year. Yale is test flexible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid at another Ivy. Friends from HS that are at Harvard, “are never there”. Skiing now (break), or in Florida a lot on the fall or traveling to London. It’s definitely a thing. Most unintellectual experience of all the kids who went Ivy.

Weird.

I'm also mystified by what Harvard is doing. The number of applicants to Harvard has been declining for years. It's known as a school that is indifferent to the undergrad experience. Its undergrad students are largely hooked or Z list or wealthy. Very few are admitted for their smarts. Students glide for four years. Maybe they attend class. Maybe they don't. Employers have all noticed a significant decline in the quality of Harvard grads over the past thirty years. I guess mandating that students actually attend classes is a start to addressing the problems at Harvard undergrad. But it's pathetic that it's come to that.

I have two kids at T20 universities. Among their cohort, it was only legacies and the offspring of prominent names that applied to Harvard. The genuinely smart and accomplished kids didn't even look in Harvard's direction. It does have the reputation for being a country club school these days. I'm referring to undergrad. Grad school is different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The writers seem to blame it on careerism when really it’s just a lower quality student who doesn’t care about education. A lot of students are in it for the jobs, and don’t care at all about what they learn, shown by the rise of Econ and CS majors everywhere.

Maybe that is because you do not learn anything anyway….

I hire an avg of 8 kids from t10 schools every year for the last 15 years at an IB in NYC.
I’m yet to hire one who has learn enough. None of them know anything. I could care less if they took Class A, B or C. But if I give them a very complex real world problem, can they solve it? that is all I care about. I will teach them everything else I need them to know.

It’s “couldn’t care less”.

PP has other grammatical errors, suggesting PP should not be opining on the academic qualifications of anyone.

"I hire an avg of 8 kids from t10 schools every year for the last 15 years at an IB in NYC." (Should be: "I have hired").

"I'm yet to hire one who has learn enough." (Should be: "I have yet to hire one who has learned enough."). Look up the difference between "I have yet to" and "I'm yet to."

Sounds like J1, J2, J3 guy from the jobs forum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The writers seem to blame it on careerism when really it’s just a lower quality student who doesn’t care about education. A lot of students are in it for the jobs, and don’t care at all about what they learn, shown by the rise of Econ and CS majors everywhere.

Maybe that is because you do not learn anything anyway….

I hire an avg of 8 kids from t10 schools every year for the last 15 years at an IB in NYC.
I’m yet to hire one who has learn enough. None of them know anything. I could care less if they took Class A, B or C. But if I give them a very complex real world problem, can they solve it? that is all I care about. I will teach them everything else I need them to know.

You probably overestimate how much you knew straight out of undergrad. It’s the curse of expertise - one is unable to imagine what it’s like not to know something. It’s why chess grandmasters tend not to be the best teachers for novices.

+1, also you can know a lot about an academic subject and not be prepared for a career. It’s a very different environment with different objectives and expectations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The writers seem to blame it on careerism when really it’s just a lower quality student who doesn’t care about education. A lot of students are in it for the jobs, and don’t care at all about what they learn, shown by the rise of Econ and CS majors everywhere.

Maybe. I know a few law school students who showed up on the first day for the syllabus and the last day for the exam. They seemed to do well.

I’m not in the legal field at all, so mind my ignorance, but I thought the classroom was a pretty important part of law school (cold calling and such)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid at another Ivy. Friends from HS that are at Harvard, “are never there”. Skiing now (break), or in Florida a lot on the fall or traveling to London. It’s definitely a thing. Most unintellectual experience of all the kids who went Ivy.

Weird.

I'm also mystified by what Harvard is doing. The number of applicants to Harvard has been declining for years. It's known as a school that is indifferent to the undergrad experience. Its undergrad students are largely hooked or Z list or wealthy. Very few are admitted for their smarts. Students glide for four years. Maybe they attend class. Maybe they don't. Employers have all noticed a significant decline in the quality of Harvard grads over the past thirty years. I guess mandating that students actually attend classes is a start to addressing the problems at Harvard undergrad. But it's pathetic that it's come to that.

I have two kids at T20 universities. Among their cohort, it was only legacies and the offspring of prominent names that applied to Harvard. The genuinely smart and accomplished kids didn't even look in Harvard's direction. It does have the reputation for being a country club school these days. I'm referring to undergrad. Grad school is different.

Ok let's not get crazy. Plenty of top stats kids admitted, it's just that they co-exist with lots of kids representing other institutional priorities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m surprised there is a school who lets students miss 2 weeks of classes without a significant, valid, issue. But I’m old school and the LAC I went to took attendance and missing too many classes impacted your grade. Good for Harvard, I guess.

Participation is still a thing at my LAC alma mater, and the typical rule is you drop a letter grade if you miss two classes. Obviously there’s exceptions to the rule, but profs want you there and want to see you stumble and improve.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The writers seem to blame it on careerism when really it’s just a lower quality student who doesn’t care about education. A lot of students are in it for the jobs, and don’t care at all about what they learn, shown by the rise of Econ and CS majors everywhere.

The problem is when a parent constantly monitors and dictates life for a student there is no intrinsic motivation on the student’s part. This is where helicopter/tiger mom method falls apart. Parent is no longer there forcing the student to get up and participate. I saw this all the time as a GTA.

This is a lot less prevalent than you expect. Most students at the top would’ve been there anyways and many come from first gen or low income backgrounds now.