The USA should adopt the German high school model

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Before anyone gets too horny for the idea of their kids being alone on the university track, a few data points:

1) The German system was deemed so discriminatory that they are being forced to integrate the "academic" track by human rights courts, as the previous system systematically tracked immigrants and the children of immigrants onto the "vocational" track

2) Public satisfaction and test scores for German schools is at an all-time post-war low: https://www.dw.com/en/germany-schools-study/a-66669093

"In one instance, the INSM study looked into fourth graders' reading and listening tests from 2011 and 2021, and found that Bavaria is the only state making "minimal" progress. In fact, while fourth graders from Bremen placed last in 2011, their level of reading and listening comprehension became the new average for Germany by 2021."

Finally someone who gets it. If we had the German model then all minority kids would be selected for a vocational track. No thanks.

Freedom isn’t free. Our flexible labor market and freedom is why our country is so powerful economically.

It's not just that the US can't be trusted with this model, it's that the very system OP is lauding was found to be violating the human rights of second-generation Germans, kids who were born in Germany and raised there. The system simply could not identify university potential if it came in brown skin.

Or, the kids of 80 IQ immigrants weren’t on average as smart as the German kids.

Yeah, first of all you're racist. Second of all, if you were asked to take an IQ test in the language you don't speak, I'm sure you would come out looking like a moron

Here's the thing - these kids spoke German! But when you track kids at 10, you are by definition using a system that relies in part on teacher input and in part on hard-core test prep. Neither of these is good at identifying talent in immigrants, even bright and talented ones.

[Anonymous]

Big no. In Germany at age twelve they decide if you are on gymnasium track. There is no way back and that is too young. How many kids have overcome learning by disabilities or emotional issues to get back on track. The best thing about the US — you are never out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Different schools for those on a university path vs a vocational path. Of course that can’t happen here due to equity . But you have to admit German schools produce much better results .

Cite?

[Anonymous]

The US already has highly intense social stratification and "the myth of meritocracy." Do we really need more of it?

The thing with Germany is that they have a strong social safety net. One of the best in the world, actually. When you have that safety net, it is comforting (if you will) to know that whatever track you end up on, there is universal free or highly accessible health care, medication, child care, nursing, pensions, parental leave, etc. Not such the case in the US - your ability to afford that stuff is highly dependent on your employment with more skilled workers (i.e., college+ educated) being
far more likely to have generous benefits that allow for quality of life.

Further, earning power for both workers and employers in Germany assures an adequate income to meet the cost of living. There is no exaggerated difference between the compensation for blue-collar workers and white-collar employees, although upper levels of management earn generous incomes and benefits. But regardless, a basic standard of living is universally accessible in Germany. In the US though? The majority of people -- but ESPECIALLY people without advanced education -- are one bad accident or job loss or period of illness away from losing everything.

I think people who bring up how "respected the trades are" in Germany and the benefits of tracking are missing the point and do not appear to have a basic grasp on the economic/welfare differences between the US and Germany.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The US already has highly intense social stratification and "the myth of meritocracy." Do we really need more of it?

The thing with Germany is that they have a strong social safety net. One of the best in the world, actually. When you have that safety net, it is comforting (if you will) to know that whatever track you end up on, there is universal free or highly accessible health care, medication, child care, nursing, pensions, parental leave, etc. Not such the case in the US - your ability to afford that stuff is highly dependent on your employment with more skilled workers (i.e., college+ educated) being
far more likely to have generous benefits that allow for quality of life.

Further, earning power for both workers and employers in Germany assures an adequate income to meet the cost of living. There is no exaggerated difference between the compensation for blue-collar workers and white-collar employees, although upper levels of management earn generous incomes and benefits. But regardless, a basic standard of living is universally accessible in Germany. In the US though? The majority of people -- but ESPECIALLY people without advanced education -- are one bad accident or job loss or period of illness away from losing everything.

I think people who bring up how "respected the trades are" in Germany and the benefits of tracking are missing the point and do not appear to have a basic grasp on the economic/welfare differences between the US and Germany.

This. Bringing just one element of that whole system would not work. It works in the context of Germany as a whole, with its demographics, broader education system, labor laws, safety net, rules and so on. You cannot just take one element and expect it to work here.

[Anonymous]

I don't think we should go to as strict a system as the German school tracking seems to be, primarily because some kids who may be well suited for higher education could legitimately be academic late-bloomers.

However I do think that it would be ideal if U.S. cultural attitudes shifted to have genuine respect for the trades as legitimate occupations. In general, I get the sense that most people look down on options like HVAC technician, plumber or electrician, mechanic, or hairstylist. Maybe it's not the done thing to admit it, but how many parents would be as happy for their kid to get educated and established as one of those types of jobs versus becoming an accountant or a computer software designer?

Only if the skilled trades are actually considered decent paths would it make sense to try to match kids suited for those jobs with a school track that gets them those certifications. Otherwise it is more like giving up on the kids or creating a permanent underclass.

Once/if the trades are seen as respectable careers, then it would make sense for the U.S. to invest in a robust system of career & technical education at the secondary school level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP,
I get it. I think a lot of people posting don’t really understand how the German system works. It’s not as if you are doomed to some low-level, unimportant job if you fail to show success in 4th grade.

The school choices and offerings are robust and they make sense. No, not everybody should go to college. And it’s not just because of intellect/ability; society doesn’t need everybody to go to college.

German vocational programs are robust, and they lead to very important jobs that provide for stable living. Their on-the-job apprenticeships set students up for success in a way we don’t.

+1

[Anonymous]

I went to school in Germany as a child and my impression is that the tracking system works very well for the students in the Gymnasium and Realschule (top and middle) but that the Hauptschule students (lowest track) are really suffering. The kids with LDs and the kids with behavioral issues all end up there with subpar teachers and no one is getting educated. One of my friends at the Hauptschule, in 10th grade, was confused by the concept of a number between 3 and 4. One of my mother's friends taught at a Hauptschule and she left because she said the general mindset among the teachers was that they were just keeping kids off the streets until they were old enough to collect "Hartz IV" (long term unemployment/welfare) and it was too demoralizing for her. I know we have schools like that in the US too and I'm certainly not saying that we do a good job educating struggling students, but it seems to me that there's a systemic issue with the Hauptschulen in Germany that Americans tend not to be aware of.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP,
I get it. I think a lot of people posting don’t really understand how the German system works. It’s not as if you are doomed to some low-level, unimportant job if you fail to show success in 4th grade.

The school choices and offerings are robust and they make sense. No, not everybody should go to college. And it’s not just because of intellect/ability; society doesn’t need everybody to go to college.

German vocational programs are robust, and they lead to very important jobs that provide for stable living. Their on-the-job apprenticeships set students up for success in a way we don’t.

My issue with the German system is that the tracking decisions are made very early. One of things I love about America is that we keep the educational doors open and embrace reinvention.

We really don't keep the doors open. I went to a German high school (gymnasium) after 3 years of a US high school. My US school was a giant, "comprehensive" school, but we had exactly the same tiers I saw replicated in the German system. They were just all in the same school building. In the US school, we had "basic" classes (English 9, Math 9 etc.); "college bound" classes (English 9A, Math 9A), and Honors classes (English 9H, Advanced Math etc. And students got put into the tracks that would lead to these classes by 6th grade for all intents and purposes. Sure, a few kids might occasionally move up or down a level, but mostly you knew by 4th or 5th grade which students were headed for the honors track.

It's been the same for my own children in Maryland public schools. Yes, they all go to large high schools. But we have the very same separated classes. The only difference is, in Germany the non-college track is more serious. Or at least it was when I was there.

[Anonymous]

Way back in the '70s I went to a comprehensive high school that had a wide variety of choices: college tracks, mechanics/ building trades etc, art and music and theater, hard sciences, etc.

The difference is the kids got to choose the track and were more successful because they picked what they were good at and motivated to do.

That's the model we should return to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Way back in the '70s I went to a comprehensive high school that had a wide variety of choices: college tracks, mechanics/ building trades etc, art and music and theater, hard sciences, etc.

The difference is the kids got to choose the track and were more successful because they picked what they were good at and motivated to do.

That's the model we should return to.

It is sad that trade options in HS are increasingly limited in the US.

A lot of trades folk seem to have gotten their training from the Navy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Way back in the '70s I went to a comprehensive high school that had a wide variety of choices: college tracks, mechanics/ building trades etc, art and music and theater, hard sciences, etc.

The difference is the kids got to choose the track and were more successful because they picked what they were good at and motivated to do.

That's the model we should return to.

It is sad that trade options in HS are increasingly limited in the US.

A lot of trades folk seem to have gotten their training from the Navy.

And it’s increasingly obscure how you can get into a trade, coming from the military or not. You have to get into the union … they aren’t super forthcoming on how they accept new members … training is a long time and difficult, income-wise, especially if you already have a family - and my friend’s husband was in IBEW training well into his 30s so they definitely were married with kids by then. We definitely need electricians, plumbers, home inspectors, etc. etc. but it’s not necessarily a straightforward career to get into.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Way back in the '70s I went to a comprehensive high school that had a wide variety of choices: college tracks, mechanics/ building trades etc, art and music and theater, hard sciences, etc.

The difference is the kids got to choose the track and were more successful because they picked what they were good at and motivated to do.

That's the model we should return to.

It is sad that trade options in HS are increasingly limited in the US.

A lot of trades folk seem to have gotten their training from the Navy.

And it’s increasingly obscure how you can get into a trade, coming from the military or not. You have to get into the union … they aren’t super forthcoming on how they accept new members … training is a long time and difficult, income-wise, especially if you already have a family - and my friend’s husband was in IBEW training well into his 30s so they definitely were married with kids by then. We definitely need electricians, plumbers, home inspectors, etc. etc. but it’s not necessarily a straightforward career to get into.

In a right-to-work state, such as Virginia, union membership is not required. The whole point of right-to-work is to eliminate union-created barriers to obtaining working in a skilled trade.

Further, many VA community colleges offer a sequence of courses leading to qualification as a plumber or electrician.

[Anonymous]

Something that I don’t think has been mentioned yet is that immigrants in Germany need to go to a special school to learn German, and pass a German test, before joining German kids in school. So they don’t have immigrants who don’t speak the native language stopping other kids from learning like we do here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Before anyone gets too horny for the idea of their kids being alone on the university track, a few data points:

1) The German system was deemed so discriminatory that they are being forced to integrate the "academic" track by human rights courts, as the previous system systematically tracked immigrants and the children of immigrants onto the "vocational" track

2) Public satisfaction and test scores for German schools is at an all-time post-war low: https://www.dw.com/en/germany-schools-study/a-66669093

"In one instance, the INSM study looked into fourth graders' reading and listening tests from 2011 and 2021, and found that Bavaria is the only state making "minimal" progress. In fact, while fourth graders from Bremen placed last in 2011, their level of reading and listening comprehension became the new average for Germany by 2021."

Your second point is making a point for the other side. The fact that fourth graders have much lower performance now has nothing to do with tracking since the tracking happens after that point. Instead, it shows that you really can’t keep all the kids together, since the lower kids are getting even lower and we all want standards to remain high at the top levels. Therefore tracking is becoming even more necessary.