The USA should adopt the German high school model

[Anonymous]

My American friends has two kids in the German system (their dad is German). Her middle school aged kid is in therapy because of the anxiety caused by school and the need to get perfect marks to stay on the college track. It's lots of pressure and the teachers don't mince words if you get something wrong. I'm really glad my kids aren't in that system.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Before anyone gets too horny for the idea of their kids being alone on the university track, a few data points:

1) The German system was deemed so discriminatory that they are being forced to integrate the "academic" track by human rights courts, as the previous system systematically tracked immigrants and the children of immigrants onto the "vocational" track

2) Public satisfaction and test scores for German schools is at an all-time post-war low: https://www.dw.com/en/germany-schools-study/a-66669093

"In one instance, the INSM study looked into fourth graders' reading and listening tests from 2011 and 2021, and found that Bavaria is the only state making "minimal" progress. In fact, while fourth graders from Bremen placed last in 2011, their level of reading and listening comprehension became the new average for Germany by 2021."

Finally someone who gets it. If we had the German model then all minority kids would be selected for a vocational track. No thanks.

Freedom isn’t free. Our flexible labor market and freedom is why our country is so powerful economically.

It's not just that the US can't be trusted with this model, it's that the very system OP is lauding was found to be violating the human rights of second-generation Germans, kids who were born in Germany and raised there. The system simply could not identify university potential if it came in brown skin.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I actually agree with you OP, and I’ve lived in Germany. But the US would just not accept it, because our race/class system has developed in such a way that many parents believe that vocational work is beneath their children.

Agree. I think the German system is pretty good in that it values all people. A country needs welders and machinists more than they need time-wasting lawyers and the mediocrity that ends up in human resources. But American society is much more complicated than German society. Just try telling a black or asian parent that their kid should go to vocational training. Tracking isn't going to work in America. What will work is establishing specialty high schools that focus on vocational training. And then the good outcomes become their own advertisement. Those kids will get great jobs. And the demand for those schools will become self-perpetuating. Americans respond to choice, not 4th grade tracking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Before anyone gets too horny for the idea of their kids being alone on the university track, a few data points:

1) The German system was deemed so discriminatory that they are being forced to integrate the "academic" track by human rights courts, as the previous system systematically tracked immigrants and the children of immigrants onto the "vocational" track

2) Public satisfaction and test scores for German schools is at an all-time post-war low: https://www.dw.com/en/germany-schools-study/a-66669093

"In one instance, the INSM study looked into fourth graders' reading and listening tests from 2011 and 2021, and found that Bavaria is the only state making "minimal" progress. In fact, while fourth graders from Bremen placed last in 2011, their level of reading and listening comprehension became the new average for Germany by 2021."

Finally someone who gets it. If we had the German model then all minority kids would be selected for a vocational track. No thanks.

Freedom isn’t free. Our flexible labor market and freedom is why our country is so powerful economically.

It's not just that the US can't be trusted with this model, it's that the very system OP is lauding was found to be violating the human rights of second-generation Germans, kids who were born in Germany and raised there. The system simply could not identify university potential if it came in brown skin.

Or, the kids of 80 IQ immigrants weren’t on average as smart as the German kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP,
I get it. I think a lot of people posting don’t really understand how the German system works. It’s not as if you are doomed to some low-level, unimportant job if you fail to show success in 4th grade.

The school choices and offerings are robust and they make sense. No, not everybody should go to college. And it’s not just because of intellect/ability; society doesn’t need everybody to go to college.

German vocational programs are robust, and they lead to very important jobs that provide for stable living. Their on-the-job apprenticeships set students up for success in a way we don’t.

I wonder how it works in practice though. Personally, I was a middling student until 8th grade, when something clicked and I became a superstar. Valedictorian, Yale, successful lawyer, blah blah. If you'd tested me in 3rd or 4th grade who knows where I'd have wound up. I didn't even test into the gifted program at my school in 2nd/3rd.

I see the same path in one of my kids.

I am strongly in favor of vocational training but not tracking students at an early age. 9th or 10th grade is soon enough.

My cousins who are now in their early 40s grew up in Germany in German schools. The testing process was incredibly stressful for them, in part because there was a huge amount of pressure for them to test into the university track, which they did. Perhaps they would have tested in no matter what but my aunt was relentless about their studying and preparing. I’m a little older but would have been in elementary/middle school at the time and I remember vividly them studying during the summer when they’d come visit and how stressful and tense everyone was.

That said, I’ve talked with both of them about it as adults and they each said it was worth it and the German system is far superior to the US system. Neither of them are raising their kids in Germany, but their parents have since moved to the US and I think that’s a big part of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The only issue I have with vocations is that they often involve physical labor. That may be okay in your 20s and 30s but after that, I can't imagine doing that physical work into my 60s.

Yes this is what isn't fully discussed in vocational work. The money can be good depending on your field (child care, nursing assistants and elder care or home health aides are all vocational tracks with horrible pay) but the risk of acute or repetitive injury is much higher. There's a reason people who work in these fields tend to have more chronic health issues or take SSDI. A lot of these jobs require you to buy your own tools or be an independent contractor so theses less benefits or protections.

If my kids show interest in vocational work I would support them but I'd want them to have a good understanding of the pluses and drawbacks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I actually agree with you OP, and I’ve lived in Germany. But the US would just not accept it, because our race/class system has developed in such a way that many parents believe that vocational work is beneath their children.

Agree. I think the German system is pretty good in that it values all people. A country needs welders and machinists more than they need time-wasting lawyers and the mediocrity that ends up in human resources. But American society is much more complicated than German society. Just try telling a black or asian parent that their kid should go to vocational training. Tracking isn't going to work in America. What will work is establishing specialty high schools that focus on vocational training. And then the good outcomes become their own advertisement. Those kids will get great jobs. And the demand for those schools will become self-perpetuating. Americans respond to choice, not 4th grade tracking.

Moco has a vocational school program at Thomas Edison. I visited the school recently and was really impressed with the facilities. As I understand, kids can enroll there for their vocation classes for 2.5 hours a day in the morning or afternoon and then take a bus to their home school for academic classes. I don't think a lot of students are participating in this program

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Different schools for those on a university path vs a vocational path. Of course that can’t happen here due to equity . But you have to admit German schools produce much better results .

No I do not admit that. We have that already.

[Anonymous]

Can somebody point me to the cut auto program or when it was discussed at a board meeting? I missed the announcement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My American friends has two kids in the German system (their dad is German). Her middle school aged kid is in therapy because of the anxiety caused by school and the need to get perfect marks to stay on the college track. It's lots of pressure and the teachers don't mince words if you get something wrong. I'm really glad my kids aren't in that system.

From everyone I’ve met who went to Gymnasium, they have a better education from high school than most college graduates in the U.S. have

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Before anyone gets too horny for the idea of their kids being alone on the university track, a few data points:

1) The German system was deemed so discriminatory that they are being forced to integrate the "academic" track by human rights courts, as the previous system systematically tracked immigrants and the children of immigrants onto the "vocational" track why do you think people with brown skin can’t get good grades?

2) Public satisfaction and test scores for German schools is at an all-time post-war low: https://www.dw.com/en/germany-schools-study/a-66669093

"In one instance, the INSM study looked into fourth graders' reading and listening tests from 2011 and 2021, and found that Bavaria is the only state making "minimal" progress. In fact, while fourth graders from Bremen placed last in 2011, their level of reading and listening comprehension became the new average for Germany by 2021."

Finally someone who gets it. If we had the German model then all minority kids would be selected for a vocational track. No thanks.

Freedom isn’t free. Our flexible labor market and freedom is why our country is so powerful economically.

It's not just that the US can't be trusted with this model, it's that the very system OP is lauding was found to be violating the human rights of second-generation Germans, kids who were born in Germany and raised there. The system simply could not identify university potential if it came in brown skin.

[Anonymous]

Magruder has some kind of aviation program

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can somebody point me to the cut auto program or when it was discussed at a board meeting? I missed the announcement.

They cut the auto trades program from Damascus because it only certified a small number of students. The program is available at Seneca Valley, which offers a lot of the same CTE programs as Edison. The students at Damascus didn't lose access to the program, but to having it in their own basement.

Which makes sense from an economies of scale thing - is it worth the cost of the program to certify a dozen kids when you have centralized locations that can serve a lot more kids?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Before anyone gets too horny for the idea of their kids being alone on the university track, a few data points:

1) The German system was deemed so discriminatory that they are being forced to integrate the "academic" track by human rights courts, as the previous system systematically tracked immigrants and the children of immigrants onto the "vocational" track

2) Public satisfaction and test scores for German schools is at an all-time post-war low: https://www.dw.com/en/germany-schools-study/a-66669093

"In one instance, the INSM study looked into fourth graders' reading and listening tests from 2011 and 2021, and found that Bavaria is the only state making "minimal" progress. In fact, while fourth graders from Bremen placed last in 2011, their level of reading and listening comprehension became the new average for Germany by 2021."

Finally someone who gets it. If we had the German model then all minority kids would be selected for a vocational track. No thanks.

Freedom isn’t free. Our flexible labor market and freedom is why our country is so powerful economically.

It's not just that the US can't be trusted with this model, it's that the very system OP is lauding was found to be violating the human rights of second-generation Germans, kids who were born in Germany and raised there. The system simply could not identify university potential if it came in brown skin.

Or, the kids of 80 IQ immigrants weren’t on average as smart as the German kids.

Yeah, first of all you're racist. Second of all, if you were asked to take an IQ test in the language you don't speak, I'm sure you would come out looking like a moron

[Anonymous]

The school or teachers don't decide where the kid goes after 9th grade or 12th grade in the old country.
Every kid can go to college or choose a vocational school.
College and vocational schools decide who gets in. Many kids who go to vocational school after 9th or even 12th, can choose to go to college later.
Kids who find college too hard can transfer for open spots in vocational school. Vocational kids can keep trying for college every year. The entrance exams count a lot more than high school grades.
We don't have private colleges pushing kids to take out enormous amount of student loans.
I can't even name a vocational school in DC.