Mismatch between assignments and formative grades

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are the tests so hard? I don't remember high school tests being so difficult, and I am not that smart

One big reason IMO is open enrollment honors/AP. Kids are taking classes they have no business signing up for because they want to for the grade bump, for their friend group, because it "looks good for college". Then they struggle. My class average is an 86%, but it's skewed way left because a handful of kids have 50s who really should never have registered for my class. Those who do belong are getting As.

My tests now compared to my tests from 20 years ago are night and day. The current ones are half as long, much simpler. I actually found some old copies cleaning out a filing cabinet yesterday on the work day and was blown away what I used to expect kids to do.

I believe it. But also, what were the homework and/or classwork assignments 20 years ago? Reading stamina has gone down - it also seems like "work" stamina, such as homework or classwork stamina, has also gone down in students. Fwiw, when I see the tests that my 9th grader brings home, they seem both very short and also very difficult to me. Although it's been years and years since I was in 9th grade and maybe I just don't remember. I know his classwork and homework assignments are pretty minimal but still seem reasonably well done, just less than I remember doing. And he had virtually no homework at all in middle school or elementary school.

We now have extremely low expectations for students.

When I first began teaching (25+ years ago):

• My students had at least 30 minutes of homework every night, in addition to being required to read an assigned novel every 4-6 weeks.
• Assessments were 100% essay-based and required true literary analysis.
• There were absolutely no retakes.
• Students were required to take notes, determining for themselves what was important to note.
• I never had to teach basics, such as paragraph structure, how to write a thesis, or correct usage of simple homophones, for every student came to eighth grade with that knowledge.
•The grading scale was strict!


Now:

• Students rarely do homework, and they don't even always complete class work.
• We can barely get students to read one book each semester, and the books we want to use, which are on grade-level, are often too difficult for most eighth grade students.
•We have had to simplify assessments to the point that they no longer require critical thinking.
• Students ask, before every assessment, "When is the retake?"
• Students don't know how to take notes, and parents complain if their children even have to complete "Cloze notes."
• I have to teach, in eighth grade, grammar and composition that are extraordinarily elementary skills.
•The grading scale is far less stringent.

It's unfortunate that we have such low expectations for students.

I wonder how much is it because of the school closure of the 2019-2024 school year.
They wanted to be in school. Fcps closed them down on March 13,2020.
So for a 11th grader they still fell like they are in 6th grade.
An 8th grade will act and fell like they were in 3rd when they were when they were shut down. It’s not going to be till 2031 till see some normally see back. Time to reopen and we shouldn’t have closed a day.
They wanted to be in school and now they aren’t doing any work or anything as a payback.

[Anonymous]

What are you going on about. School wasn't closed for 5 years.

[Anonymous]

I would like to see maybe 60/40 with summatives/formatives.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are the tests so hard? I don't remember high school tests being so difficult, and I am not that smart

One big reason IMO is open enrollment honors/AP. Kids are taking classes they have no business signing up for because they want to for the grade bump, for their friend group, because it "looks good for college". Then they struggle. My class average is an 86%, but it's skewed way left because a handful of kids have 50s who really should never have registered for my class. Those who do belong are getting As.

My tests now compared to my tests from 20 years ago are night and day. The current ones are half as long, much simpler. I actually found some old copies cleaning out a filing cabinet yesterday on the work day and was blown away what I used to expect kids to do.

I believe it. But also, what were the homework and/or classwork assignments 20 years ago? Reading stamina has gone down - it also seems like "work" stamina, such as homework or classwork stamina, has also gone down in students. Fwiw, when I see the tests that my 9th grader brings home, they seem both very short and also very difficult to me. Although it's been years and years since I was in 9th grade and maybe I just don't remember. I know his classwork and homework assignments are pretty minimal but still seem reasonably well done, just less than I remember doing. And he had virtually no homework at all in middle school or elementary school.

We now have extremely low expectations for students.

When I first began teaching (25+ years ago):

• My students had at least 30 minutes of homework every night, in addition to being required to read an assigned novel every 4-6 weeks.
• Assessments were 100% essay-based and required true literary analysis.
• There were absolutely no retakes.
• Students were required to take notes, determining for themselves what was important to note.
• I never had to teach basics, such as paragraph structure, how to write a thesis, or correct usage of simple homophones, for every student came to eighth grade with that knowledge.
•The grading scale was strict!


Now:

• Students rarely do homework, and they don't even always complete class work.
• We can barely get students to read one book each semester, and the books we want to use, which are on grade-level, are often too difficult for most eighth grade students.
•We have had to simplify assessments to the point that they no longer require critical thinking.
• Students ask, before every assessment, "When is the retake?"
• Students don't know how to take notes, and parents complain if their children even have to complete "Cloze notes."
• I have to teach, in eighth grade, grammar and composition that are extraordinarily elementary skills.
•The grading scale is far less stringent.

It's unfortunate that we have such low expectations for students.

I wonder how much is it because of the school closure of the 2019-2024 school year.
They wanted to be in school. Fcps closed them down on March 13,2020.
So for a 11th grader they still fell like they are in 6th grade.
An 8th grade will act and fell like they were in 3rd when they were when they were shut down. It’s not going to be till 2031 till see some normally see back. Time to reopen and we shouldn’t have closed a day.
They wanted to be in school and now they aren’t doing any work or anything as a payback.

Even if you assume kids were out of school spring 2020 until fall 2021, they have still had 3 full school years since then to catch up. Pandemic closures probably accelerated some trends, but let's be honest they started long before.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In a few of my kids' classes (particularly foreign language and English) there seems to be a mismatch between how long an assignment takes and what it is worth. In foreign language, there have been about 10 of these less than 5 minute assignments like an edpuzzle. But then randomly there have been 2 or 3 that have taken hours and hours to do. I'm not clear on why the longer, weightier assignments aren't summatives. The kids aren't stupid and they can see the time suck of the longer assignments and then just won't do them. In English, it is even worse, there has been a firehose of random quizzes (that have no relation to the only one summative!) and take home assignments, with the take home assignments taking 4-5 hours to complete and then these aren't even graded. While these random quizzes are. Is there any kind of oversight of the teachers and what they are assigning? I've been forcing my kids to do all the work, but they tell me most of their friends are no longer doing the assignments that don't count and I've heard from other parents that their kids just don't do homework. Is this a thing? Should I lighten up on having them do their assignments?

This is us too. My son spends hours on what is basically only going to be a formative assignment. It’s nuts. Then it barely makes a dent in their grade. I finally sat down and explained to him how the 30%/70% works. He could finally see how little the formative assignments count. My only hope is that by doing all the formative assignments, it will help in doing well on the summative assignments and I think that is somewhat holding true. Even though the formative work takes hours (think history), it seems to be paying off when it comes to summatives. My kid has straight As.

This is exactly right-- doing well on formative and upgraded practice will help students do better on summatives.

The parents who think their children shouldn't do the work unless there is a big grade attached are sending a terrible message to their children and are setting their children up for failure as adults. It's very bad parenting.

Oh look an expert parent lol

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This new model is really impacting kids at McLean who are essentially forced to take AP Pre-Calc and AP Seminar whether they are qualified to or not

As well as this school not allowing anything but unit tests as Summative grades( only retake allowed for summarize) and retakes that are impossible to get any higher on. I’m hoping FCPS gets rid of this retake policy as fast as APS did last year. Having only 2 unit tests per quarter count 70% of your grade is ridiculous. Plus teachers never review quizzes or tests in class, you need to make an appointment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are the tests so hard? I don't remember high school tests being so difficult, and I am not that smart

One big reason IMO is open enrollment honors/AP. Kids are taking classes they have no business signing up for because they want to for the grade bump, for their friend group, because it "looks good for college". Then they struggle. My class average is an 86%, but it's skewed way left because a handful of kids have 50s who really should never have registered for my class. Those who do belong are getting As.

My tests now compared to my tests from 20 years ago are night and day. The current ones are half as long, much simpler. I actually found some old copies cleaning out a filing cabinet yesterday on the work day and was blown away what I used to expect kids to do.

Perhaps the handful of kids who have lower grades have them because of the one test that they have taken so far that is counting for 70% of their grade. While I do agree that maybe some of the kids do not belong in the higher level classes, most are qualified and should be encouraged if they work hard and put in the effort.
After attending many college info sessions for my know senior. Every single school said they are looking for rigor with HNs,APs and IBs this even from seemingly “easier” admits for state schools(VA). So the pressure is real.

My one course has 2 tests and 2 quizzes in summative.

The other has 3 tests and 3 quizzes.

So no, it’s not a singular poor performance. It is students going against the recommendations of their former teachers, not being willing to hear it’s not a good idea to jump from regular algebra (with a B) to honors geometry, to take geometry over the summer and try to jump to algebra 2 honors, to get a C- in precalc but take calculus anyway, etc, etc.

We aren’t trying to be mean. We want kids to be successful. When I have a child who literally has not gotten above 20% on an assessment all year and only has a passing grade because of the 50% rule, I get frustrated that they signed up for my class. They were not recommended for it, don’t have the grades to support it, and are in way over their heads. I don’t have the time, no matter how hard I try, to give them sufficient support to keep up.

In any given honors/AP class at least 4-5 (out of 30) kids fit that profile. It’s brutal.

So you are saying you allow quizzes in Summative? Here is another issue! Our HS only allows tests in Summative just like above that was said. Only 2 tests this quarter in most classes. Why is there not a rule for all HS what has to be in Summative ( quizzes, projects, labs) like has been in previous years? So you allow your students to re take quizzes if you put them in Summative? Because that’s the new rule…I’d rather have my kids in your HS

[Anonymous]

The new rules are great. Two summative tests is preparing them for college where there is often only 2 major tests—a midterm and final which are weighted heavily. Homework just helps one learn the material along the way and counts less.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The new rules are great. Two summative tests is preparing them for college where there is often only 2 major tests—a midterm and final which are weighted heavily. Homework just helps one learn the material along the way and counts less.

I would love it if our school required a minimum of 2 summatives per quarter. Instead multiple classes have just one and then split the grade in half. Sneaky of them to get around the 35% rule.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The new rules are great. Two summative tests is preparing them for college where there is often only 2 major tests—a midterm and final which are weighted heavily. Homework just helps one learn the material along the way and counts less.

I would love it if our school required a minimum of 2 summatives per quarter. Instead multiple classes have just one and then split the grade in half. Sneaky of them to get around the 35% rule.

The good news is that for retakes you only have to do half a test then.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are the tests so hard? I don't remember high school tests being so difficult, and I am not that smart

One big reason IMO is open enrollment honors/AP. Kids are taking classes they have no business signing up for because they want to for the grade bump, for their friend group, because it "looks good for college". Then they struggle. My class average is an 86%, but it's skewed way left because a handful of kids have 50s who really should never have registered for my class. Those who do belong are getting As.

My tests now compared to my tests from 20 years ago are night and day. The current ones are half as long, much simpler. I actually found some old copies cleaning out a filing cabinet yesterday on the work day and was blown away what I used to expect kids to do.

Perhaps the handful of kids who have lower grades have them because of the one test that they have taken so far that is counting for 70% of their grade. While I do agree that maybe some of the kids do not belong in the higher level classes, most are qualified and should be encouraged if they work hard and put in the effort.
After attending many college info sessions for my know senior. Every single school said they are looking for rigor with HNs,APs and IBs this even from seemingly “easier” admits for state schools(VA). So the pressure is real.

My one course has 2 tests and 2 quizzes in summative.

The other has 3 tests and 3 quizzes.

So no, it’s not a singular poor performance. It is students going against the recommendations of their former teachers, not being willing to hear it’s not a good idea to jump from regular algebra (with a B) to honors geometry, to take geometry over the summer and try to jump to algebra 2 honors, to get a C- in precalc but take calculus anyway, etc, etc.

We aren’t trying to be mean. We want kids to be successful. When I have a child who literally has not gotten above 20% on an assessment all year and only has a passing grade because of the 50% rule, I get frustrated that they signed up for my class. They were not recommended for it, don’t have the grades to support it, and are in way over their heads. I don’t have the time, no matter how hard I try, to give them sufficient support to keep up.

In any given honors/AP class at least 4-5 (out of 30) kids fit that profile. It’s brutal.

So you are saying you allow quizzes in Summative? Here is another issue! Our HS only allows tests in Summative just like above that was said. Only 2 tests this quarter in most classes. Why is there not a rule for all HS what has to be in Summative ( quizzes, projects, labs) like has been in previous years? So you allow your students to re take quizzes if you put them in Summative? Because that’s the new rule…I’d rather have my kids in your HS

I don't do retakes for quizzes, I do grade replacement (similar to the SBG this board hates). I quiz on topics A/B/C throughout the unit, and then their test covers A/B/C in entirety. If they score better on section A on the test, I raise their quiz A grade to match--they've demonstrated improved understanding of that topic. I'd do the same for any quizzes in formative.

Learning isn't a race. I want students to learn the material by test day. Quizzes should be learning opportunities.