Mismatch between assignments and formative grades

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are the tests so hard? I don't remember high school tests being so difficult, and I am not that smart

One big reason IMO is open enrollment honors/AP. Kids are taking classes they have no business signing up for because they want to for the grade bump, for their friend group, because it "looks good for college". Then they struggle. My class average is an 86%, but it's skewed way left because a handful of kids have 50s who really should never have registered for my class. Those who do belong are getting As.

My tests now compared to my tests from 20 years ago are night and day. The current ones are half as long, much simpler. I actually found some old copies cleaning out a filing cabinet yesterday on the work day and was blown away what I used to expect kids to do.

I believe it. But also, what were the homework and/or classwork assignments 20 years ago? Reading stamina has gone down - it also seems like "work" stamina, such as homework or classwork stamina, has also gone down in students. Fwiw, when I see the tests that my 9th grader brings home, they seem both very short and also very difficult to me. Although it's been years and years since I was in 9th grade and maybe I just don't remember. I know his classwork and homework assignments are pretty minimal but still seem reasonably well done, just less than I remember doing. And he had virtually no homework at all in middle school or elementary school.

We now have extremely low expectations for students.

When I first began teaching (25+ years ago):

• My students had at least 30 minutes of homework every night, in addition to being required to read an assigned novel every 4-6 weeks.
• Assessments were 100% essay-based and required true literary analysis.
• There were absolutely no retakes.
• Students were required to take notes, determining for themselves what was important to note.
• I never had to teach basics, such as paragraph structure, how to write a thesis, or correct usage of simple homophones, for every student came to eighth grade with that knowledge.
•The grading scale was strict!


Now:

• Students rarely do homework, and they don't even always complete class work.
• We can barely get students to read one book each semester, and the books we want to use, which are on grade-level, are often too difficult for most eighth grade students.
•We have had to simplify assessments to the point that they no longer require critical thinking.
• Students ask, before every assessment, "When is the retake?"
• Students don't know how to take notes, and parents complain if their children even have to complete "Cloze notes."
• I have to teach, in eighth grade, grammar and composition that are extraordinarily elementary skills.
•The grading scale is far less stringent.

It's unfortunate that we have such low expectations for students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are the tests so hard? I don't remember high school tests being so difficult, and I am not that smart

One big reason IMO is open enrollment honors/AP. Kids are taking classes they have no business signing up for because they want to for the grade bump, for their friend group, because it "looks good for college". Then they struggle. My class average is an 86%, but it's skewed way left because a handful of kids have 50s who really should never have registered for my class. Those who do belong are getting As.

My tests now compared to my tests from 20 years ago are night and day. The current ones are half as long, much simpler. I actually found some old copies cleaning out a filing cabinet yesterday on the work day and was blown away what I used to expect kids to do.

Perhaps the handful of kids who have lower grades have them because of the one test that they have taken so far that is counting for 70% of their grade. While I do agree that maybe some of the kids do not belong in the higher level classes, most are qualified and should be encouraged if they work hard and put in the effort.
After attending many college info sessions for my know senior. Every single school said they are looking for rigor with HNs,APs and IBs this even from seemingly “easier” admits for state schools(VA). So the pressure is real.

My one course has 2 tests and 2 quizzes in summative.

The other has 3 tests and 3 quizzes.

So no, it’s not a singular poor performance. It is students going against the recommendations of their former teachers, not being willing to hear it’s not a good idea to jump from regular algebra (with a B) to honors geometry, to take geometry over the summer and try to jump to algebra 2 honors, to get a C- in precalc but take calculus anyway, etc, etc.

We aren’t trying to be mean. We want kids to be successful. When I have a child who literally has not gotten above 20% on an assessment all year and only has a passing grade because of the 50% rule, I get frustrated that they signed up for my class. They were not recommended for it, don’t have the grades to support it, and are in way over their heads. I don’t have the time, no matter how hard I try, to give them sufficient support to keep up.

In any given honors/AP class at least 4-5 (out of 30) kids fit that profile. It’s brutal.

[Anonymous]

This new model is really impacting kids at McLean who are essentially forced to take AP Pre-Calc and AP Seminar whether they are qualified to or not

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP. I see a mismatch between formative and summative. DC has lots (10+) formative assignments with 5/5, 9/9, or the occasional 11/12, etc. and then bombs the summative with 32/65. Yes, he'll be doing the retake. But that's a big disconnect. Makes no sense.

There is no disconnect. Your son didn’t study/doesn’t actually grasp the material that is tested. Formatives are graded mainly for completion. Makes perfect sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We just got an email that my dc failed her first AP world history test.

The teacher said it is eligible for a retake after completing an "extensive remediation packet" but he encourages students to not retake and focus on the next unit, says when students try and retake they fall behind and then do poorly on the next test as well.

Any advice?

Drop down to honors.

just curious, would the grade go with the student or would she start fresh in Honors?

I don’t know actually. Ask the counselor.

[Anonymous]

My oldest is in 9th. I went to back to school night. **None of the teachers said the grades for work reflected completion only and not correctness.**

When I see 10/10 in a gradebook, I have been assuming work was graded and all the answers were correct.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My oldest is in 9th. I went to back to school night. **None of the teachers said the grades for work reflected completion only and not correctness.**

When I see 10/10 in a gradebook, I have been assuming work was graded and all the answers were correct.

I am seeing the opposite issue at our high school. The formatives are more harshly graded than the summatives. This is at a school with skills based grading though so no homework. Just a ton of quizzes in some classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. I see a mismatch between formative and summative. DC has lots (10+) formative assignments with 5/5, 9/9, or the occasional 11/12, etc. and then bombs the summative with 32/65. Yes, he'll be doing the retake. But that's a big disconnect. Makes no sense.

There is no disconnect. Your son didn’t study/doesn’t actually grasp the material that is tested. Formatives are graded mainly for completion. Makes perfect sense.

Formatives range from edutech assignments to quizzes, everything that is not the big test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. I see a mismatch between formative and summative. DC has lots (10+) formative assignments with 5/5, 9/9, or the occasional 11/12, etc. and then bombs the summative with 32/65. Yes, he'll be doing the retake. But that's a big disconnect. Makes no sense.

There is no disconnect. Your son didn’t study/doesn’t actually grasp the material that is tested. Formatives are graded mainly for completion. Makes perfect sense.

Formatives range from edutech assignments to quizzes, everything that is not the big test.

I don't understand how a kid can be scoring 100s on quizzes and homework and projects but repeatedly fails the test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. I see a mismatch between formative and summative. DC has lots (10+) formative assignments with 5/5, 9/9, or the occasional 11/12, etc. and then bombs the summative with 32/65. Yes, he'll be doing the retake. But that's a big disconnect. Makes no sense.

There is no disconnect. Your son didn’t study/doesn’t actually grasp the material that is tested. Formatives are graded mainly for completion. Makes perfect sense.

Formatives range from edutech assignments to quizzes, everything that is not the big test.

I don't understand how a kid can be scoring 100s on quizzes and homework and projects but repeatedly fails the test.

Homework and projects are completed at home and parents or a tutor can help. Quizzes - if your child isn’t scoring As on those, that’s a sign. I bet most of the formative stuff wasn’t an actual quiz. Also, a lot of teachers are doing “open note” quizzes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. I see a mismatch between formative and summative. DC has lots (10+) formative assignments with 5/5, 9/9, or the occasional 11/12, etc. and then bombs the summative with 32/65. Yes, he'll be doing the retake. But that's a big disconnect. Makes no sense.

There is no disconnect. Your son didn’t study/doesn’t actually grasp the material that is tested. Formatives are graded mainly for completion. Makes perfect sense.

Formatives range from edutech assignments to quizzes, everything that is not the big test.

I don't understand how a kid can be scoring 100s on quizzes and homework and projects but repeatedly fails the test.

Homework and projects are completed at home and parents or a tutor can help. Quizzes - if your child isn’t scoring As on those, that’s a sign. I bet most of the formative stuff wasn’t an actual quiz. Also, a lot of teachers are doing “open note” quizzes.

Or, maybe the explanation is, there's a mismatch.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In a few of my kids' classes (particularly foreign language and English) there seems to be a mismatch between how long an assignment takes and what it is worth. In foreign language, there have been about 10 of these less than 5 minute assignments like an edpuzzle. But then randomly there have been 2 or 3 that have taken hours and hours to do. I'm not clear on why the longer, weightier assignments aren't summatives. The kids aren't stupid and they can see the time suck of the longer assignments and then just won't do them. In English, it is even worse, there has been a firehose of random quizzes (that have no relation to the only one summative!) and take home assignments, with the take home assignments taking 4-5 hours to complete and then these aren't even graded. While these random quizzes are. Is there any kind of oversight of the teachers and what they are assigning? I've been forcing my kids to do all the work, but they tell me most of their friends are no longer doing the assignments that don't count and I've heard from other parents that their kids just don't do homework. Is this a thing? Should I lighten up on having them do their assignments?

This is us too. My son spends hours on what is basically only going to be a formative assignment. It’s nuts. Then it barely makes a dent in their grade. I finally sat down and explained to him how the 30%/70% works. He could finally see how little the formative assignments count. My only hope is that by doing all the formative assignments, it will help in doing well on the summative assignments and I think that is somewhat holding true. Even though the formative work takes hours (think history), it seems to be paying off when it comes to summatives. My kid has straight As.

This is exactly right-- doing well on formative and upgraded practice will help students do better on summatives.

The parents who think their children shouldn't do the work unless there is a big grade attached are sending a terrible message to their children and are setting their children up for failure as adults. It's very bad parenting.

I do wish the hard work on formatives counted a bit more though.

Effort should not correlate to grades. Grades should be based on product/output/demonstration of knowledge, not how long it takes to do it or how hard an assignment is.

Ideally, 100% of grades would be assessments, but everyone knows kids would immediately stop doing anything if it wasn't graded, so trivial grades have to be assigned to process grades.

If a student has 2 Spanish assignments worth 10 points each and one will take 5 minutes and the other 5 hours, obviously prioritize the 5 minute one. But to say they shouldn't do the big one if it's a worthwhile learning opportunity with a small grade is short sighted. It won't be long before college when many classes will have homework and readings worth 0 points, but good luck passing the midterm/final without doing the readings and mini assignments along the way.

Ugh - so true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. I see a mismatch between formative and summative. DC has lots (10+) formative assignments with 5/5, 9/9, or the occasional 11/12, etc. and then bombs the summative with 32/65. Yes, he'll be doing the retake. But that's a big disconnect. Makes no sense.

There is no disconnect. Your son didn’t study/doesn’t actually grasp the material that is tested. Formatives are graded mainly for completion. Makes perfect sense.

Formatives range from edutech assignments to quizzes, everything that is not the big test.

I don't understand how a kid can be scoring 100s on quizzes and homework and projects but repeatedly fails the test.

Homework and projects are completed at home and parents or a tutor can help. Quizzes - if your child isn’t scoring As on those, that’s a sign. I bet most of the formative stuff wasn’t an actual quiz. Also, a lot of teachers are doing “open note” quizzes.

What if a child is scoring As on quizzes? It doesn't make sense to parents or students, especially if the teacher hasn't said the formative work isn't being graded for accuracy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are the tests so hard? I don't remember high school tests being so difficult, and I am not that smart

One big reason IMO is open enrollment honors/AP. Kids are taking classes they have no business signing up for because they want to for the grade bump, for their friend group, because it "looks good for college". Then they struggle. My class average is an 86%, but it's skewed way left because a handful of kids have 50s who really should never have registered for my class. Those who do belong are getting As.

My tests now compared to my tests from 20 years ago are night and day. The current ones are half as long, much simpler. I actually found some old copies cleaning out a filing cabinet yesterday on the work day and was blown away what I used to expect kids to do.

I believe it. But also, what were the homework and/or classwork assignments 20 years ago? Reading stamina has gone down - it also seems like "work" stamina, such as homework or classwork stamina, has also gone down in students. Fwiw, when I see the tests that my 9th grader brings home, they seem both very short and also very difficult to me. Although it's been years and years since I was in 9th grade and maybe I just don't remember. I know his classwork and homework assignments are pretty minimal but still seem reasonably well done, just less than I remember doing. And he had virtually no homework at all in middle school or elementary school.

We now have extremely low expectations for students.

When I first began teaching (25+ years ago):

• My students had at least 30 minutes of homework every night, in addition to being required to read an assigned novel every 4-6 weeks.
• Assessments were 100% essay-based and required true literary analysis.
• There were absolutely no retakes.
• Students were required to take notes, determining for themselves what was important to note.
• I never had to teach basics, such as paragraph structure, how to write a thesis, or correct usage of simple homophones, for every student came to eighth grade with that knowledge.
•The grading scale was strict!

Now:

• Students rarely do homework, and they don't even always complete class work.
• We can barely get students to read one book each semester, and the books we want to use, which are on grade-level, are often too difficult for most eighth grade students.
•We have had to simplify assessments to the point that they no longer require critical thinking.
• Students ask, before every assessment, "When is the retake?"
• Students don't know how to take notes, and parents complain if their children even have to complete "Cloze notes."
• I have to teach, in eighth grade, grammar and composition that are extraordinarily elementary skills.
•The grading scale is far less stringent.

It's unfortunate that we have such low expectations for students.

We switched to private so our kid could get the 25+ years ago standards. It's rigorous, for them but also for us keeping up with what they are doing. I don't think that's a-typical: looking back my parents had to do the same for me 25+ years ago.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. I see a mismatch between formative and summative. DC has lots (10+) formative assignments with 5/5, 9/9, or the occasional 11/12, etc. and then bombs the summative with 32/65. Yes, he'll be doing the retake. But that's a big disconnect. Makes no sense.

There is no disconnect. Your son didn’t study/doesn’t actually grasp the material that is tested. Formatives are graded mainly for completion. Makes perfect sense.

Formatives range from edutech assignments to quizzes, everything that is not the big test.

I don't understand how a kid can be scoring 100s on quizzes and homework and projects but repeatedly fails the test.

Homework and projects are completed at home and parents or a tutor can help. Quizzes - if your child isn’t scoring As on those, that’s a sign. I bet most of the formative stuff wasn’t an actual quiz. Also, a lot of teachers are doing “open note” quizzes.

What if a child is scoring As on quizzes? It doesn't make sense to parents or students, especially if the teacher hasn't said the formative work isn't being graded for accuracy.

Was the quiz open note? Quizzes in general have less material so are easier. Have you seen these quizzes?