Law school at age 40 to get a government or in-house counsel job?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It really doesn’t seem like a good idea at his age. Maybe get a non-lawyer job at the SEC or FINRA? I’m sure they would love to have him with that experience.

He's been searching for several months, and there is virtually nothing for people with investments experience (vs. corporate finance/accounting). Just one specific office at the DFC, but even that one has a lot of travel, so seems intense...and he has applied for several jobs there with no results.

SEC hires lawyers and economists, not niche PE guys. He hasn't been able to find anything in finance at 40-45 hours/week, even at a much lower salary.

It feels really hard to be trapped at age 37. He's so unhappy and all he wants to do is to work normal hours so he can spend time with the kids and have a life.

So your DH has been working in Private Equity for over a decade.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/28/opinion/private-equity.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb

So after sucking the marrow out of America’s bones, he wants to saddle up with the plan to work as little as possible just to collect his taxpayer provided salary?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As discussed upthread, this is an unrealistic ambition for a variety of reasons - UMD doesn't have the necessary prestige to place many new graduates into highly competitive roles, a mid-career career-changer will face skepticism in the job market and will be competing with younger and less expensive applicants with the same level of experience and education, the desired salary is out of reach for most new law school graduates and even for many experienced attorneys apart from those in roles which are hard to obtain, the financial opportunity cost is hugely significant if the plan is to stop working for three years while paying for law school, etc.

While it's evident that a career change is desired, it seems obvious that this plan has a low probability of success. More creative and pragmatic thinking is called for - how can you reduce expenses so the desired income is not necessary? What other new careers might be sufficiently fulfilling, not very demanding of time, and pay enough for the family to manage on - law is probably not the answer.

To not want to work more than 40 hrs/week implies a lack of commitment and ambition to any employer; their more highly compensated roles will not meet that criterion.

Maybe study accounting part-time, sit for the CPA exam eventually, and seek a role as a staff accountant in an accounting firm or in a company accounting/finance department. Or, if sales appeals, consider acquiring financial planning credentials and going into investment sales and "Wealth management".

This.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to limit work hours to 40 hours a week to focus on family. Work/life balance is important. But looking to make 200k as a lawyer while not wanting to go over 40 hrs a week -- good %$#ing luck with that attitude. I'm a lawyer who has done their fair share of hiring, and would avoid hiring someone like this like the plague.

I'm not saying there is no lawyer out there who makes this and works 40 hours a week -- but it is rare and generally only doable with many years of practice, specialized know-how, and the right kind of job. Straight out of law school? No way. Straight out of law school you get hired at a Biglaw firm (if you can) and make 200k and work your ass off. Or you make less at a less well-paying job and work your ass off. Or you make less at a less well-paying job and don't work your ass off and get let go or put on a PIP.

There are in-house jobs like you seem to be dreaming of, but they don't tend to hire new law grads. There are gov jobs kinda like this, but you will start as a GS-11 as an HP hire in DC which is about 80k and as mentioned before here it takes years to get to GS-15, if you get the 15 at all, and right now even a GS-15 at the highest step level in the DC area is just under 200k. And there is a lot of competition for HP positions (ask me how I know ... going through that many applications to figure out who to interview is a nightmare).

If reducing work hours down to 40 hours a week is the priority, law is not the best idea. And with the way you are prioritizing high pay, you will need to factor in lost opportunity costs while in school, and the cost of tuition. So, yeah, probably a really bad idea unless DH just really wants to be a lawyer (which might also be dumb, but I digress).

(I'm a lawyer)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It really doesn’t seem like a good idea at his age. Maybe get a non-lawyer job at the SEC or FINRA? I’m sure they would love to have him with that experience.

He's been searching for several months, and there is virtually nothing for people with investments experience (vs. corporate finance/accounting). Just one specific office at the DFC, but even that one has a lot of travel, so seems intense...and he has applied for several jobs there with no results.

SEC hires lawyers and economists, not niche PE guys. He hasn't been able to find anything in finance at 40-45 hours/week, even at a much lower salary.

It feels really hard to be trapped at age 37. He's so unhappy and all he wants to do is to work normal hours so he can spend time with the kids and have a life.

So your DH has been working in Private Equity for over a decade.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/28/opinion/private-equity.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb

So after sucking the marrow out of America’s bones, he wants to saddle up with the plan to work as little as possible just to collect his taxpayer provided salary?

*gov lawyer stands up and applauds*

[Anonymous]

I know two lawyers with excellent big firm partner experience in that age range who have been looking for a change for a year now. His problem isn't his field, it's age discrimination.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Most in house lawyers are picked up from firms that do work for the company, so they have a known quantity. You don’t just go law school to in house.

In fact, I can't think of a single company that would hire a new law grad with zero experience (unless it was a board members nephew. lol). They typically don't have the bandwidth or desire to train you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most in house lawyers are picked up from firms that do work for the company, so they have a known quantity. You don’t just go law school to in house.

In fact, I can't think of a single company that would hire a new law grad with zero experience (unless it was a board members nephew. lol). They typically don't have the bandwidth or desire to train you.

Yeah, I used the word "most" because of what you said that I bolded, lol. Never say never, but yeah those aren't normal hires.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most in house lawyers are picked up from firms that do work for the company, so they have a known quantity. You don’t just go law school to in house.

In fact, I can't think of a single company that would hire a new law grad with zero experience (unless it was a board members nephew. lol). They typically don't have the bandwidth or desire to train you.

Yeah, I used the word "most" because of what you said that I bolded, lol. Never say never, but yeah those aren't normal hires.

I’m in house and manage our hiring. We typically require at least four years experience with a top firm.

[Anonymous]

The only possible way to make this work is to kick ass at UMD then score a Circuit-level federal clerkship (3 yrs no pay plus 2 years of low pay) then score HP at DOJ (good luck) then work 3-5 years to hit GS15.

[Anonymous]

I doubt that someone, like OP's husband, who has earned several million dollars over a decade will want to start over and do grunt work.

[Anonymous]

Another lawyer here - non traditional.

Highly unlikely your husband will be able to do this.

The $200K salaries with work/life balance are generally only available to lawyers who have extensive, specialized experience - mostly because they need it to be able to get the work done in 40 hours.

Honestly, it’s unlikely he’d get hired at a Big Law firm even where he could make more than that in exchange for 50-60 hrs a week. Unless there was something that his background made him well suited for - no one wants to manage and train a 40 year old first year attorney.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I know two lawyers with excellent big firm partner experience in that age range who have been looking for a change for a year now. His problem isn't his field, it's age discrimination.

No, it's not age discrimination in the legal world. Lawyers don't really hit their stride until their 40s. The issue for partners looking to exit is that they're looking for pretty rare jobs - senior level in house roles or senior level government roles. In both cases, they prefer to hire internally or want experience that the partners don't have (ie, prior in house experience or government experience). I'm certain they would have few issues exiting if they were willing to take an IC-level job at a client.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What are the job prospects for someone graduating the law school at University of Maryland at age 40 and looking to get into government or in-house legal work? Prior experience is all in PE/hedge fund. Do you have to basically start over? Is a 200k salary working 40 hours/week realistic?

DH really wants to make this switch because he can't find a 40 hour/week job in investing (government, nonprofit, or private sector), and his heart isn't in finance anymore, and he's always been interested in doing legal work. He worked closely with lawyers on the legal aspects of deals and feels like legal work is a good fit for him. We do not have a ton of savings, I'm in a low paid field, but we wouldn't go into debt for this degree. I want to be supportive but just not sure if he will be able to get the kind of job he wants.

So, your husband has been working at hedge funds for years, but your family has minimal savings? Seems like you and your husband should examine your life choices.

Not everyone working at a hedge fund makes millions of dollars. Not every hedge fund is ubersuccessful. We saved a couple of million over the decade he was working there - part of that is for retirement and the other part was used to buy a house in cash. More recently, he has tried impact investing jobs, which really cut into his salary, but still don't have the work-life balance he's looking for.

I'm financially independent having made $40k max in DC the last 27 years. You just don't see what you don't see. I have a great work life balance since there's no work.
You talking about 'millions of dollars' and him needing to make $200k got you both good.
Putting too much into house-not good.
Putting too much into retirement accounts also not good.
Not investing hands on inside Roth or traditional IRA, not good.
529-trash.
401k, maybe ok up to the match.
How was he not successful with his own finances the last 10-15 years? One has to try really hard to miss all the opportunities we have had. There are more coming and he will be at school.

[Anonymous]

No one will hire him in gov in middle age and he’ll have all those debts. So no.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He could look into procurement/contracting and get a certification but that would also not be a GS-15 position. Maybe a GS 11/12, but that would be a 40 hour work week. The thing is that it is almost impossible to get a 40 hour work week right out of law school unless it is a judicial law clerk position and those pay around $60,000 these days (and they only last 1-2 years).

Judicial law clerk positions are competitive. Not many UMD Law grads become judicial law clerks.

Well, yes and no.

Not many Maryland Law grads get federal clerkships.

A huge number of Maryland Law grads get state court (circuit and appellate) clerkships.

Unfortunately, for what OP’s husband wants, he’d need a federal clerkship. Which means he would absolutely need to CRUSH IT at Maryland Law. And then it would be several years in the government working up the pay scales.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The only possible way to make this work is to kick ass at UMD then score a Circuit-level federal clerkship (3 yrs no pay plus 2 years of low pay) then score HP at DOJ (good luck) then work 3-5 years to hit GS15.

I did HP hiring for my litigating division at DOJ. Getting through the number of HP applications we received was almost impossible. A fed appellate clerkship did put people at the top of the stack. But even then, as you point out, it would be years before a trial attorney hits gs-15, which even at the highest step doesn’t quite hit 200k. My DH is over 200k (we met at work) but he is SES.

Oh, and even with a DC Circuit clerkship if I were to get a whiff of “I went to law school looking to work 40 hours”—that would have been an easy “no” for me.