How can precalc be an AP class?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Precalculus courses show wide variations between different states and even different counties within states. I’m sure colleges welcome the standardization that comes with making a precalculus class AP level. At least, they now know what content a student has mastered in precalculus. A small percentage of students have completed Calculus in high school. Most have not. And many counties such as MCPS have done away with final exams so having AP Precalculus means those kids have to take a rigorous 2-3 hour final exam. Finally, AP classes tend to be more difficult than their CC equivalent

AP precalculus syllabus intentionally not a full year course because they want to give schools the flexibility to fit it into their own multi year math curriculum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not all states have 4 years obligatory math in high school. For example California only has 2 years mandatory, which is why precalculus could be a university class.

But wouldn't it be considered remedial? There are college English classes that cover the absolute basics of grammar and composition, and they're zero-level classes, whereas "Introductory Composition" is 101

All the scoffing is a little ridiculous, elitist and parochial, all at once. The educational requirements are varied across the 50 states not everything is the same as in your neck of the woods.

It would not be remedial, but if course it will not count as a requirement for science and engineering majors. It will count for some other majors like humanities, and frankly you don’t need to take calculus for comparative literature or marketing.

If UC Berkeley has a precalculus course and gives credit to it, it’s good enough as an AP from some random high school. It’s up there with all lower division courses like calculus, multi, Lin alg, etc.
https://math.berkeley.edu/courses/overview/lowerdivcourses/math32

Another benefit is in an age of grade inflation and lax standards there some attempt at an independent evaluation, which I welcome.

But the AP precalc exam is watered down. It only tests on the first three units of AP Precalc, which is roughly 2/3 Algebra 2 content. The exam does not cover the more challenging aspects of precalc.

Check the Berkeley precalculus, it’s the same as what’s on the AP exam.

College Board doesn’t have to do the most challenging course or the most in depth, probably there are honors precalculus classes that are better.

The student should choose whatever makes the most sense to them.

Berkeley's course appears to cover even less content than the watered down AP Precalc exam; no polar functions. Berkeley's course is just a validation of Algebra 2 skills. The SAT does the same thing. But, since the UC no longer considers SAT scores, they appear to need an alternative way to do the same thing.

Berkeley's course name for precalc is interesting. Math 32. Generally, math courses are ordered sequentially in order of difficulty. But calculus is Math 1 at Berkeley. So their options were to label Precalc as Math 0 or give it a higher number. They opted for the latter even though it is incongruous with the ordering of other courses.

There's always kids that need remedial courses in college. Their HS didn't offer good coursework, they struggle on some subjects etc. But we used to just call it remedial, now that term is disfavored.

The issue is more pronounced now that the UC no longer uses SAT scores.

Absolutely.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not all states have 4 years obligatory math in high school. For example California only has 2 years mandatory, which is why precalculus could be a university class.

But wouldn't it be considered remedial? There are college English classes that cover the absolute basics of grammar and composition, and they're zero-level classes, whereas "Introductory Composition" is 101

All the scoffing is a little ridiculous, elitist and parochial, all at once. The educational requirements are varied across the 50 states not everything is the same as in your neck of the woods.

It would not be remedial, but if course it will not count as a requirement for science and engineering majors. It will count for some other majors like humanities, and frankly you don’t need to take calculus for comparative literature or marketing.

If UC Berkeley has a precalculus course and gives credit to it, it’s good enough as an AP from some random high school. It’s up there with all lower division courses like calculus, multi, Lin alg, etc.
https://math.berkeley.edu/courses/overview/lowerdivcourses/math32

Another benefit is in an age of grade inflation and lax standards there some attempt at an independent evaluation, which I welcome.

But the AP precalc exam is watered down. It only tests on the first three units of AP Precalc, which is roughly 2/3 Algebra 2 content. The exam does not cover the more challenging aspects of precalc.

Check the Berkeley precalculus, it’s the same as what’s on the AP exam.

College Board doesn’t have to do the most challenging course or the most in depth, probably there are honors precalculus classes that are better.

The student should choose whatever makes the most sense to them.

Berkeley's course appears to cover even less content than the watered down AP Precalc exam; no polar functions. Berkeley's course is just a validation of Algebra 2 skills. The SAT does the same thing. But, since the UC no longer considers SAT scores, they appear to need an alternative way to do the same thing.

Berkeley's course name for precalc is interesting. Math 32. Generally, math courses are ordered sequentially in order of difficulty. But calculus is Math 1 at Berkeley. So their options were to label Precalc as Math 0 or give it a higher number. They opted for the latter even though it is incongruous with the ordering of other courses.

There's always kids that need remedial courses in college. Their HS didn't offer good coursework, they struggle on some subjects etc. But we used to just call it remedial, now that term is disfavored.

It isn’t remedial, there’s only two years of math required in high school in California so a student could be done after geometry. Most take 4 years, however given that the UC system serves a large number of California residents, it makes sense to offer precalculus.

Those classes were never called remedial. They are just called the same as they would be in high school, ie algebra geometry etc. Students that need to take them most often go through the CC, where precalculus can be transferred to UC, but algebra and geometry can’t.

It has always been like that, it has nothing to do with SAT, or anything else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What happened to Trigonometry, does that class not exist anymore?

Trigonometry is part of Precalculus.

Trig used to be combined with Algebra 2 for advanced students. But in the interests of ensuring that all students can enter the accelerated math path at any point on the path, trig is now being combined more with precalc even for advanced students. This is unfortunate as taking trig with Algebra 2 is crucial in opening up space in precalc to begin introductory calc so that BC calculus is not as rushed the following year.

Trig is still combined with Alg 2 at our school, and Pre Cal Honors is combined with Calc A. Perhaps this varies by regions. I am not in the DMV anymore.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Precalculus courses show wide variations between different states and even different counties within states. I’m sure colleges welcome the standardization that comes with making a precalculus class AP level. At least, they now know what content a student has mastered in precalculus. A small percentage of students have completed Calculus in high school. Most have not. And many counties such as MCPS have done away with final exams so having AP Precalculus means those kids have to take a rigorous 2-3 hour final exam. Finally, AP classes tend to be more difficult than their CC equivalent

AP precalculus syllabus intentionally not a full year course because they want to give schools the flexibility to fit it into their own multi year math curriculum.

The AP Precalc exam was originally designed to cover all four units, same as a typical full-year precalc class. However, math reformers, including Jo Boaler, protested, saying that was too much content. The College Board capitulated and made the AP Precalc exam cover only the first three units which are majority Algebra 2 content and made Unit 4 optional.

Precalc is a sensitive topic for math reformers. Claims that students can take Algebra 1 in 9th grade and get to calculus by 12th grade rest on the use of an Algebra 2/Precalculus compression course in 11th grade. San Francisco's compression course is an infamous example; it contained so little precalc content that the UC did not deem the course to be precalc. Had the AP Precalc exam covered all four units as originally planned, it would have stood in stark contrast to the watered down Algebra 2/Precalc compression courses that reformers favor. As such, their plea for the College Board to water down the AP Precalc exam, which was honored.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not all states have 4 years obligatory math in high school. For example California only has 2 years mandatory, which is why precalculus could be a university class.

But wouldn't it be considered remedial? There are college English classes that cover the absolute basics of grammar and composition, and they're zero-level classes, whereas "Introductory Composition" is 101

All the scoffing is a little ridiculous, elitist and parochial, all at once. The educational requirements are varied across the 50 states not everything is the same as in your neck of the woods.

It would not be remedial, but if course it will not count as a requirement for science and engineering majors. It will count for some other majors like humanities, and frankly you don’t need to take calculus for comparative literature or marketing.

If UC Berkeley has a precalculus course and gives credit to it, it’s good enough as an AP from some random high school. It’s up there with all lower division courses like calculus, multi, Lin alg, etc.
https://math.berkeley.edu/courses/overview/lowerdivcourses/math32

Another benefit is in an age of grade inflation and lax standards there some attempt at an independent evaluation, which I welcome.

But the AP precalc exam is watered down. It only tests on the first three units of AP Precalc, which is roughly 2/3 Algebra 2 content. The exam does not cover the more challenging aspects of precalc.

Check the Berkeley precalculus, it’s the same as what’s on the AP exam.

College Board doesn’t have to do the most challenging course or the most in depth, probably there are honors precalculus classes that are better.

The student should choose whatever makes the most sense to them.

Berkeley's course appears to cover even less content than the watered down AP Precalc exam; no polar functions. Berkeley's course is just a validation of Algebra 2 skills. The SAT does the same thing. But, since the UC no longer considers SAT scores, they appear to need an alternative way to do the same thing.

Berkeley's course name for precalc is interesting. Math 32. Generally, math courses are ordered sequentially in order of difficulty. But calculus is Math 1 at Berkeley. So their options were to label Precalc as Math 0 or give it a higher number. They opted for the latter even though it is incongruous with the ordering of other courses.

There's always kids that need remedial courses in college. Their HS didn't offer good coursework, they struggle on some subjects etc. But we used to just call it remedial, now that term is disfavored.

It isn’t remedial, there’s only two years of math required in high school in California so a student could be done after geometry. Most take 4 years, however given that the UC system serves a large number of California residents, it makes sense to offer precalculus.

Those classes were never called remedial. They are just called the same as they would be in high school, ie algebra geometry etc. Students that need to take them most often go through the CC, where precalculus can be transferred to UC, but algebra and geometry can’t.

It has always been like that, it has nothing to do with SAT, or anything else.

That doesn't mean it's not remedial -- admitting students who don't have the standard college prep background doesn't mean college graduation standards have been lowered, it just means that kids who might not have been admitted previously will be given more help to catch up. That's a good thing, but it doesn't make precalc a college-level course.

I mean, you can argue that if it's taught in college, it's by definition a college-level course, but in that case, you're abandoning standards entire rather than being flexible in how students meet them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not all states have 4 years obligatory math in high school. For example California only has 2 years mandatory, which is why precalculus could be a university class.

But wouldn't it be considered remedial? There are college English classes that cover the absolute basics of grammar and composition, and they're zero-level classes, whereas "Introductory Composition" is 101

All the scoffing is a little ridiculous, elitist and parochial, all at once. The educational requirements are varied across the 50 states not everything is the same as in your neck of the woods.

It would not be remedial, but if course it will not count as a requirement for science and engineering majors. It will count for some other majors like humanities, and frankly you don’t need to take calculus for comparative literature or marketing.

If UC Berkeley has a precalculus course and gives credit to it, it’s good enough as an AP from some random high school. It’s up there with all lower division courses like calculus, multi, Lin alg, etc.
https://math.berkeley.edu/courses/overview/lowerdivcourses/math32

Another benefit is in an age of grade inflation and lax standards there some attempt at an independent evaluation, which I welcome.

But the AP precalc exam is watered down. It only tests on the first three units of AP Precalc, which is roughly 2/3 Algebra 2 content. The exam does not cover the more challenging aspects of precalc.

Check the Berkeley precalculus, it’s the same as what’s on the AP exam.

College Board doesn’t have to do the most challenging course or the most in depth, probably there are honors precalculus classes that are better.

The student should choose whatever makes the most sense to them.

Berkeley's course appears to cover even less content than the watered down AP Precalc exam; no polar functions. Berkeley's course is just a validation of Algebra 2 skills. The SAT does the same thing. But, since the UC no longer considers SAT scores, they appear to need an alternative way to do the same thing.

Berkeley's course name for precalc is interesting. Math 32. Generally, math courses are ordered sequentially in order of difficulty. But calculus is Math 1 at Berkeley. So their options were to label Precalc as Math 0 or give it a higher number. They opted for the latter even though it is incongruous with the ordering of other courses.

There's always kids that need remedial courses in college. Their HS didn't offer good coursework, they struggle on some subjects etc. But we used to just call it remedial, now that term is disfavored.

It isn’t remedial, there’s only two years of math required in high school in California so a student could be done after geometry. Most take 4 years, however given that the UC system serves a large number of California residents, it makes sense to offer precalculus.

Those classes were never called remedial. They are just called the same as they would be in high school, ie algebra geometry etc. Students that need to take them most often go through the CC, where precalculus can be transferred to UC, but algebra and geometry can’t.

It has always been like that, it has nothing to do with SAT, or anything else.

That doesn't mean it's not remedial -- admitting students who don't have the standard college prep background doesn't mean college graduation standards have been lowered, it just means that kids who might not have been admitted previously will be given more help to catch up. That's a good thing, but it doesn't make precalc a college-level course.

I mean, you can argue that if it's taught in college, it's by definition a college-level course, but in that case, you're abandoning standards entire rather than being flexible in how students meet them.

Then you don’t know what remedial is. Not only Precalculus is offered at a university, it also counts towards a degree. Remedial courses don’t earn credit.

You’re writing from the viewpoint of someone intending to major in stem, not everyone follows this path. Whatever you think the standard college prep background is, it’s just too narrow.

AP Precalculus is in the same category as AP Physics 1, 2. It’s not good for a stem degree but it satisfies requirements for other degrees (eg nursing). You wouldn’t say AP Physics is remedial.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not all states have 4 years obligatory math in high school. For example California only has 2 years mandatory, which is why precalculus could be a university class.

But wouldn't it be considered remedial? There are college English classes that cover the absolute basics of grammar and composition, and they're zero-level classes, whereas "Introductory Composition" is 101

All the scoffing is a little ridiculous, elitist and parochial, all at once. The educational requirements are varied across the 50 states not everything is the same as in your neck of the woods.

It would not be remedial, but if course it will not count as a requirement for science and engineering majors. It will count for some other majors like humanities, and frankly you don’t need to take calculus for comparative literature or marketing.

If UC Berkeley has a precalculus course and gives credit to it, it’s good enough as an AP from some random high school. It’s up there with all lower division courses like calculus, multi, Lin alg, etc.
https://math.berkeley.edu/courses/overview/lowerdivcourses/math32

Another benefit is in an age of grade inflation and lax standards there some attempt at an independent evaluation, which I welcome.

But the AP precalc exam is watered down. It only tests on the first three units of AP Precalc, which is roughly 2/3 Algebra 2 content. The exam does not cover the more challenging aspects of precalc.

Check the Berkeley precalculus, it’s the same as what’s on the AP exam.

College Board doesn’t have to do the most challenging course or the most in depth, probably there are honors precalculus classes that are better.

The student should choose whatever makes the most sense to them.

Berkeley's course appears to cover even less content than the watered down AP Precalc exam; no polar functions. Berkeley's course is just a validation of Algebra 2 skills. The SAT does the same thing. But, since the UC no longer considers SAT scores, they appear to need an alternative way to do the same thing.

Berkeley's course name for precalc is interesting. Math 32. Generally, math courses are ordered sequentially in order of difficulty. But calculus is Math 1 at Berkeley. So their options were to label Precalc as Math 0 or give it a higher number. They opted for the latter even though it is incongruous with the ordering of other courses.

There's always kids that need remedial courses in college. Their HS didn't offer good coursework, they struggle on some subjects etc. But we used to just call it remedial, now that term is disfavored.

It isn’t remedial, there’s only two years of math required in high school in California so a student could be done after geometry. Most take 4 years, however given that the UC system serves a large number of California residents, it makes sense to offer precalculus.

Those classes were never called remedial. They are just called the same as they would be in high school, ie algebra geometry etc. Students that need to take them most often go through the CC, where precalculus can be transferred to UC, but algebra and geometry can’t.

It has always been like that, it has nothing to do with SAT, or anything else.

That doesn't mean it's not remedial -- admitting students who don't have the standard college prep background doesn't mean college graduation standards have been lowered, it just means that kids who might not have been admitted previously will be given more help to catch up. That's a good thing, but it doesn't make precalc a college-level course.

I mean, you can argue that if it's taught in college, it's by definition a college-level course, but in that case, you're abandoning standards entire rather than being flexible in how students meet them.

Then you don’t know what remedial is. Not only Precalculus is offered at a university, it also counts towards a degree. Remedial courses don’t earn credit.

You’re writing from the viewpoint of someone intending to major in stem, not everyone follows this path. Whatever you think the standard college prep background is, it’s just too narrow.

AP Precalculus is in the same category as AP Physics 1, 2. It’s not good for a stem degree but it satisfies requirements for other degrees (eg nursing). You wouldn’t say AP Physics is remedial.

DP. Then why put students intending to go on to BC calculus into AP Precalculus?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not all states have 4 years obligatory math in high school. For example California only has 2 years mandatory, which is why precalculus could be a university class.

But wouldn't it be considered remedial? There are college English classes that cover the absolute basics of grammar and composition, and they're zero-level classes, whereas "Introductory Composition" is 101

All the scoffing is a little ridiculous, elitist and parochial, all at once. The educational requirements are varied across the 50 states not everything is the same as in your neck of the woods.

It would not be remedial, but if course it will not count as a requirement for science and engineering majors. It will count for some other majors like humanities, and frankly you don’t need to take calculus for comparative literature or marketing.

If UC Berkeley has a precalculus course and gives credit to it, it’s good enough as an AP from some random high school. It’s up there with all lower division courses like calculus, multi, Lin alg, etc.
https://math.berkeley.edu/courses/overview/lowerdivcourses/math32

Another benefit is in an age of grade inflation and lax standards there some attempt at an independent evaluation, which I welcome.

But the AP precalc exam is watered down. It only tests on the first three units of AP Precalc, which is roughly 2/3 Algebra 2 content. The exam does not cover the more challenging aspects of precalc.

Check the Berkeley precalculus, it’s the same as what’s on the AP exam.

College Board doesn’t have to do the most challenging course or the most in depth, probably there are honors precalculus classes that are better.

The student should choose whatever makes the most sense to them.

Berkeley's course appears to cover even less content than the watered down AP Precalc exam; no polar functions. Berkeley's course is just a validation of Algebra 2 skills. The SAT does the same thing. But, since the UC no longer considers SAT scores, they appear to need an alternative way to do the same thing.

Berkeley's course name for precalc is interesting. Math 32. Generally, math courses are ordered sequentially in order of difficulty. But calculus is Math 1 at Berkeley. So their options were to label Precalc as Math 0 or give it a higher number. They opted for the latter even though it is incongruous with the ordering of other courses.

There's always kids that need remedial courses in college. Their HS didn't offer good coursework, they struggle on some subjects etc. But we used to just call it remedial, now that term is disfavored.

It isn’t remedial, there’s only two years of math required in high school in California so a student could be done after geometry. Most take 4 years, however given that the UC system serves a large number of California residents, it makes sense to offer precalculus.

Those classes were never called remedial. They are just called the same as they would be in high school, ie algebra geometry etc. Students that need to take them most often go through the CC, where precalculus can be transferred to UC, but algebra and geometry can’t.

It has always been like that, it has nothing to do with SAT, or anything else.

That doesn't mean it's not remedial -- admitting students who don't have the standard college prep background doesn't mean college graduation standards have been lowered, it just means that kids who might not have been admitted previously will be given more help to catch up. That's a good thing, but it doesn't make precalc a college-level course.

I mean, you can argue that if it's taught in college, it's by definition a college-level course, but in that case, you're abandoning standards entire rather than being flexible in how students meet them.

Then you don’t know what remedial is. Not only Precalculus is offered at a university, it also counts towards a degree. Remedial courses don’t earn credit.

You’re writing from the viewpoint of someone intending to major in stem, not everyone follows this path. Whatever you think the standard college prep background is, it’s just too narrow.

AP Precalculus is in the same category as AP Physics 1, 2. It’s not good for a stem degree but it satisfies requirements for other degrees (eg nursing). You wouldn’t say AP Physics is remedial.

DP. Then why put students intending to go on to BC calculus into AP Precalculus?

Who is putting them where? They can choose among courses their school offers.

If the school only offers AP Precalculus and you’re not happy, then talk to the math department, although I’m not sure what the issue is. AP Precalculus is an ok preparation for BC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not all states have 4 years obligatory math in high school. For example California only has 2 years mandatory, which is why precalculus could be a university class.

But wouldn't it be considered remedial? There are college English classes that cover the absolute basics of grammar and composition, and they're zero-level classes, whereas "Introductory Composition" is 101

All the scoffing is a little ridiculous, elitist and parochial, all at once. The educational requirements are varied across the 50 states not everything is the same as in your neck of the woods.

It would not be remedial, but if course it will not count as a requirement for science and engineering majors. It will count for some other majors like humanities, and frankly you don’t need to take calculus for comparative literature or marketing.

If UC Berkeley has a precalculus course and gives credit to it, it’s good enough as an AP from some random high school. It’s up there with all lower division courses like calculus, multi, Lin alg, etc.
https://math.berkeley.edu/courses/overview/lowerdivcourses/math32

Another benefit is in an age of grade inflation and lax standards there some attempt at an independent evaluation, which I welcome.

But the AP precalc exam is watered down. It only tests on the first three units of AP Precalc, which is roughly 2/3 Algebra 2 content. The exam does not cover the more challenging aspects of precalc.

Check the Berkeley precalculus, it’s the same as what’s on the AP exam.

College Board doesn’t have to do the most challenging course or the most in depth, probably there are honors precalculus classes that are better.

The student should choose whatever makes the most sense to them.

Berkeley's course appears to cover even less content than the watered down AP Precalc exam; no polar functions. Berkeley's course is just a validation of Algebra 2 skills. The SAT does the same thing. But, since the UC no longer considers SAT scores, they appear to need an alternative way to do the same thing.

Berkeley's course name for precalc is interesting. Math 32. Generally, math courses are ordered sequentially in order of difficulty. But calculus is Math 1 at Berkeley. So their options were to label Precalc as Math 0 or give it a higher number. They opted for the latter even though it is incongruous with the ordering of other courses.

There's always kids that need remedial courses in college. Their HS didn't offer good coursework, they struggle on some subjects etc. But we used to just call it remedial, now that term is disfavored.

It isn’t remedial, there’s only two years of math required in high school in California so a student could be done after geometry. Most take 4 years, however given that the UC system serves a large number of California residents, it makes sense to offer precalculus.

Those classes were never called remedial. They are just called the same as they would be in high school, ie algebra geometry etc. Students that need to take them most often go through the CC, where precalculus can be transferred to UC, but algebra and geometry can’t.

It has always been like that, it has nothing to do with SAT, or anything else.

That doesn't mean it's not remedial -- admitting students who don't have the standard college prep background doesn't mean college graduation standards have been lowered, it just means that kids who might not have been admitted previously will be given more help to catch up. That's a good thing, but it doesn't make precalc a college-level course.

I mean, you can argue that if it's taught in college, it's by definition a college-level course, but in that case, you're abandoning standards entire rather than being flexible in how students meet them.

Then you don’t know what remedial is. Not only Precalculus is offered at a university, it also counts towards a degree. Remedial courses don’t earn credit.

You’re writing from the viewpoint of someone intending to major in stem, not everyone follows this path. Whatever you think the standard college prep background is, it’s just too narrow.

AP Precalculus is in the same category as AP Physics 1, 2. It’s not good for a stem degree but it satisfies requirements for other degrees (eg nursing). You wouldn’t say AP Physics is remedial.

DP. Then why put students intending to go on to BC calculus into AP Precalculus?

Who is putting them where? They can choose among courses their school offers.

If the school only offers AP Precalculus and you’re not happy, then talk to the math department, although I’m not sure what the issue is. AP Precalculus is an ok preparation for BC.

Local districts have eliminated honors precalc, opting instead to put honors students into AP Precalc and exclude non-honors students from it. AP Precalc was not designed just to prepare students for calculus since it was assumed that most students taking it would be in 12th grade. As such, the course takes an applied approach and has students spend time running regressions, which are not needed for AP Calc. In contrast, it excludes series and sigma notation which are needed for BC. And, if teachers follow the AP Precalc pacing, there won't be adequate time to cover introductory calculus in the second semester. Honors precalc was better preparation for BC Calc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not all states have 4 years obligatory math in high school. For example California only has 2 years mandatory, which is why precalculus could be a university class.

But wouldn't it be considered remedial? There are college English classes that cover the absolute basics of grammar and composition, and they're zero-level classes, whereas "Introductory Composition" is 101

All the scoffing is a little ridiculous, elitist and parochial, all at once. The educational requirements are varied across the 50 states not everything is the same as in your neck of the woods.

It would not be remedial, but if course it will not count as a requirement for science and engineering majors. It will count for some other majors like humanities, and frankly you don’t need to take calculus for comparative literature or marketing.

If UC Berkeley has a precalculus course and gives credit to it, it’s good enough as an AP from some random high school. It’s up there with all lower division courses like calculus, multi, Lin alg, etc.
https://math.berkeley.edu/courses/overview/lowerdivcourses/math32

Another benefit is in an age of grade inflation and lax standards there some attempt at an independent evaluation, which I welcome.

But the AP precalc exam is watered down. It only tests on the first three units of AP Precalc, which is roughly 2/3 Algebra 2 content. The exam does not cover the more challenging aspects of precalc.

Check the Berkeley precalculus, it’s the same as what’s on the AP exam.

College Board doesn’t have to do the most challenging course or the most in depth, probably there are honors precalculus classes that are better.

The student should choose whatever makes the most sense to them.

Berkeley's course appears to cover even less content than the watered down AP Precalc exam; no polar functions. Berkeley's course is just a validation of Algebra 2 skills. The SAT does the same thing. But, since the UC no longer considers SAT scores, they appear to need an alternative way to do the same thing.

Berkeley's course name for precalc is interesting. Math 32. Generally, math courses are ordered sequentially in order of difficulty. But calculus is Math 1 at Berkeley. So their options were to label Precalc as Math 0 or give it a higher number. They opted for the latter even though it is incongruous with the ordering of other courses.

There's always kids that need remedial courses in college. Their HS didn't offer good coursework, they struggle on some subjects etc. But we used to just call it remedial, now that term is disfavored.

It isn’t remedial, there’s only two years of math required in high school in California so a student could be done after geometry. Most take 4 years, however given that the UC system serves a large number of California residents, it makes sense to offer precalculus.

Those classes were never called remedial. They are just called the same as they would be in high school, ie algebra geometry etc. Students that need to take them most often go through the CC, where precalculus can be transferred to UC, but algebra and geometry can’t.

It has always been like that, it has nothing to do with SAT, or anything else.

That doesn't mean it's not remedial -- admitting students who don't have the standard college prep background doesn't mean college graduation standards have been lowered, it just means that kids who might not have been admitted previously will be given more help to catch up. That's a good thing, but it doesn't make precalc a college-level course.

I mean, you can argue that if it's taught in college, it's by definition a college-level course, but in that case, you're abandoning standards entire rather than being flexible in how students meet them.

Then you don’t know what remedial is. Not only Precalculus is offered at a university, it also counts towards a degree. Remedial courses don’t earn credit.

You’re writing from the viewpoint of someone intending to major in stem, not everyone follows this path. Whatever you think the standard college prep background is, it’s just too narrow.

AP Precalculus is in the same category as AP Physics 1, 2. It’s not good for a stem degree but it satisfies requirements for other degrees (eg nursing). You wouldn’t say AP Physics is remedial.

DP. Then why put students intending to go on to BC calculus into AP Precalculus?

Who is putting them where? They can choose among courses their school offers.

If the school only offers AP Precalculus and you’re not happy, then talk to the math department, although I’m not sure what the issue is. AP Precalculus is an ok preparation for BC.

Local districts have eliminated honors precalc, opting instead to put honors students into AP Precalc and exclude non-honors students from it. AP Precalc was not designed just to prepare students for calculus since it was assumed that most students taking it would be in 12th grade. As such, the course takes an applied approach and has students spend time running regressions, which are not needed for AP Calc. In contrast, it excludes series and sigma notation which are needed for BC. And, if teachers follow the AP Precalc pacing, there won't be adequate time to cover introductory calculus in the second semester. Honors precalc was better preparation for BC Calc.

Why would they teach Calculus in the precalculus class? Honors students should be able to handle BC in two semesters, not in three like you’re suggesting. Tens of thousands of students do it every year and get a 5 on the exam.

The series prerequisite for Calculus BC is very basic and it’s covered in Algebra. You don’t need that much time for the summation notation.

Precalculus is not supposed to be optimized for giving the maximum edge to students taking BC. Vectors and matrices are still worthwhile for Physics for example.

To be honest all the hand wringing about AP precalculus is a little silly. Its a fine preparation for BC, at least according to published prerequisites.

https://secure-media.collegeboard.org/digitalServices/pdf/ap/ap-course-overviews/ap-calculus-bc-course-overview.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not all states have 4 years obligatory math in high school. For example California only has 2 years mandatory, which is why precalculus could be a university class.

But wouldn't it be considered remedial? There are college English classes that cover the absolute basics of grammar and composition, and they're zero-level classes, whereas "Introductory Composition" is 101

All the scoffing is a little ridiculous, elitist and parochial, all at once. The educational requirements are varied across the 50 states not everything is the same as in your neck of the woods.

It would not be remedial, but if course it will not count as a requirement for science and engineering majors. It will count for some other majors like humanities, and frankly you don’t need to take calculus for comparative literature or marketing.

If UC Berkeley has a precalculus course and gives credit to it, it’s good enough as an AP from some random high school. It’s up there with all lower division courses like calculus, multi, Lin alg, etc.
https://math.berkeley.edu/courses/overview/lowerdivcourses/math32

Another benefit is in an age of grade inflation and lax standards there some attempt at an independent evaluation, which I welcome.

But the AP precalc exam is watered down. It only tests on the first three units of AP Precalc, which is roughly 2/3 Algebra 2 content. The exam does not cover the more challenging aspects of precalc.

Check the Berkeley precalculus, it’s the same as what’s on the AP exam.

College Board doesn’t have to do the most challenging course or the most in depth, probably there are honors precalculus classes that are better.

The student should choose whatever makes the most sense to them.

Berkeley's course appears to cover even less content than the watered down AP Precalc exam; no polar functions. Berkeley's course is just a validation of Algebra 2 skills. The SAT does the same thing. But, since the UC no longer considers SAT scores, they appear to need an alternative way to do the same thing.

Berkeley's course name for precalc is interesting. Math 32. Generally, math courses are ordered sequentially in order of difficulty. But calculus is Math 1 at Berkeley. So their options were to label Precalc as Math 0 or give it a higher number. They opted for the latter even though it is incongruous with the ordering of other courses.

There's always kids that need remedial courses in college. Their HS didn't offer good coursework, they struggle on some subjects etc. But we used to just call it remedial, now that term is disfavored.

It isn’t remedial, there’s only two years of math required in high school in California so a student could be done after geometry. Most take 4 years, however given that the UC system serves a large number of California residents, it makes sense to offer precalculus.

Those classes were never called remedial. They are just called the same as they would be in high school, ie algebra geometry etc. Students that need to take them most often go through the CC, where precalculus can be transferred to UC, but algebra and geometry can’t.

It has always been like that, it has nothing to do with SAT, or anything else.

That doesn't mean it's not remedial -- admitting students who don't have the standard college prep background doesn't mean college graduation standards have been lowered, it just means that kids who might not have been admitted previously will be given more help to catch up. That's a good thing, but it doesn't make precalc a college-level course.

I mean, you can argue that if it's taught in college, it's by definition a college-level course, but in that case, you're abandoning standards entire rather than being flexible in how students meet them.

Then you don’t know what remedial is. Not only Precalculus is offered at a university, it also counts towards a degree. Remedial courses don’t earn credit.

You’re writing from the viewpoint of someone intending to major in stem, not everyone follows this path. Whatever you think the standard college prep background is, it’s just too narrow.

AP Precalculus is in the same category as AP Physics 1, 2. It’s not good for a stem degree but it satisfies requirements for other degrees (eg nursing). You wouldn’t say AP Physics is remedial.

DP. Then why put students intending to go on to BC calculus into AP Precalculus?

Who is putting them where? They can choose among courses their school offers.

If the school only offers AP Precalculus and you’re not happy, then talk to the math department, although I’m not sure what the issue is. AP Precalculus is an ok preparation for BC.

Local districts have eliminated honors precalc, opting instead to put honors students into AP Precalc and exclude non-honors students from it. AP Precalc was not designed just to prepare students for calculus since it was assumed that most students taking it would be in 12th grade. As such, the course takes an applied approach and has students spend time running regressions, which are not needed for AP Calc. In contrast, it excludes series and sigma notation which are needed for BC. And, if teachers follow the AP Precalc pacing, there won't be adequate time to cover introductory calculus in the second semester. Honors precalc was better preparation for BC Calc.

Why would they teach Calculus in the precalculus class? Honors students should be able to handle BC in two semesters, not in three like you’re suggesting. Tens of thousands of students do it every year and get a 5 on the exam.

The series prerequisite for Calculus BC is very basic and it’s covered in Algebra. You don’t need that much time for the summation notation.

Precalculus is not supposed to be optimized for giving the maximum edge to students taking BC. Vectors and matrices are still worthwhile for Physics for example.

To be honest all the hand wringing about AP precalculus is a little silly. Its a fine preparation for BC, at least according to published prerequisites.

https://secure-media.collegeboard.org/digitalServices/pdf/ap/ap-course-overviews/ap-calculus-bc-course-overview.pdf

The standard for decades has been to begin teaching high school BC calculus in spring semester of precalculus. That is how honors precalculus was taught in local districts here prior to AP Precalc. Another PP on this thread noted that that is their district's current policy. BC becomes more rushed if you don't since it covers more content than AB. Why slow down honors students in precalculus by having them run regressions? Two thirds of the AP Precalc exam is effectively Algebra 2. Advanced students don't need that much time for Algebra 2 content; they can do a short Algebra 2 review and then move on to vectors and matrices and then on to calculus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not all states have 4 years obligatory math in high school. For example California only has 2 years mandatory, which is why precalculus could be a university class.

But wouldn't it be considered remedial? There are college English classes that cover the absolute basics of grammar and composition, and they're zero-level classes, whereas "Introductory Composition" is 101

All the scoffing is a little ridiculous, elitist and parochial, all at once. The educational requirements are varied across the 50 states not everything is the same as in your neck of the woods.

It would not be remedial, but if course it will not count as a requirement for science and engineering majors. It will count for some other majors like humanities, and frankly you don’t need to take calculus for comparative literature or marketing.

If UC Berkeley has a precalculus course and gives credit to it, it’s good enough as an AP from some random high school. It’s up there with all lower division courses like calculus, multi, Lin alg, etc.
https://math.berkeley.edu/courses/overview/lowerdivcourses/math32

Another benefit is in an age of grade inflation and lax standards there some attempt at an independent evaluation, which I welcome.

But the AP precalc exam is watered down. It only tests on the first three units of AP Precalc, which is roughly 2/3 Algebra 2 content. The exam does not cover the more challenging aspects of precalc.

Check the Berkeley precalculus, it’s the same as what’s on the AP exam.

College Board doesn’t have to do the most challenging course or the most in depth, probably there are honors precalculus classes that are better.

The student should choose whatever makes the most sense to them.

Berkeley's course appears to cover even less content than the watered down AP Precalc exam; no polar functions. Berkeley's course is just a validation of Algebra 2 skills. The SAT does the same thing. But, since the UC no longer considers SAT scores, they appear to need an alternative way to do the same thing.

Berkeley's course name for precalc is interesting. Math 32. Generally, math courses are ordered sequentially in order of difficulty. But calculus is Math 1 at Berkeley. So their options were to label Precalc as Math 0 or give it a higher number. They opted for the latter even though it is incongruous with the ordering of other courses.

There's always kids that need remedial courses in college. Their HS didn't offer good coursework, they struggle on some subjects etc. But we used to just call it remedial, now that term is disfavored.

It isn’t remedial, there’s only two years of math required in high school in California so a student could be done after geometry. Most take 4 years, however given that the UC system serves a large number of California residents, it makes sense to offer precalculus.

Those classes were never called remedial. They are just called the same as they would be in high school, ie algebra geometry etc. Students that need to take them most often go through the CC, where precalculus can be transferred to UC, but algebra and geometry can’t.

It has always been like that, it has nothing to do with SAT, or anything else.

That doesn't mean it's not remedial -- admitting students who don't have the standard college prep background doesn't mean college graduation standards have been lowered, it just means that kids who might not have been admitted previously will be given more help to catch up. That's a good thing, but it doesn't make precalc a college-level course.

I mean, you can argue that if it's taught in college, it's by definition a college-level course, but in that case, you're abandoning standards entire rather than being flexible in how students meet them.

Then you don’t know what remedial is. Not only Precalculus is offered at a university, it also counts towards a degree. Remedial courses don’t earn credit.

You’re writing from the viewpoint of someone intending to major in stem, not everyone follows this path. Whatever you think the standard college prep background is, it’s just too narrow.

AP Precalculus is in the same category as AP Physics 1, 2. It’s not good for a stem degree but it satisfies requirements for other degrees (eg nursing). You wouldn’t say AP Physics is remedial.

DP. Then why put students intending to go on to BC calculus into AP Precalculus?

Who is putting them where? They can choose among courses their school offers.

If the school only offers AP Precalculus and you’re not happy, then talk to the math department, although I’m not sure what the issue is. AP Precalculus is an ok preparation for BC.

Local districts have eliminated honors precalc, opting instead to put honors students into AP Precalc and exclude non-honors students from it. AP Precalc was not designed just to prepare students for calculus since it was assumed that most students taking it would be in 12th grade. As such, the course takes an applied approach and has students spend time running regressions, which are not needed for AP Calc. In contrast, it excludes series and sigma notation which are needed for BC. And, if teachers follow the AP Precalc pacing, there won't be adequate time to cover introductory calculus in the second semester. Honors precalc was better preparation for BC Calc.

Why would they teach Calculus in the precalculus class? Honors students should be able to handle BC in two semesters, not in three like you’re suggesting. Tens of thousands of students do it every year and get a 5 on the exam.

The series prerequisite for Calculus BC is very basic and it’s covered in Algebra. You don’t need that much time for the summation notation.

Precalculus is not supposed to be optimized for giving the maximum edge to students taking BC. Vectors and matrices are still worthwhile for Physics for example.

To be honest all the hand wringing about AP precalculus is a little silly. Its a fine preparation for BC, at least according to published prerequisites.

https://secure-media.collegeboard.org/digitalServices/pdf/ap/ap-course-overviews/ap-calculus-bc-course-overview.pdf

The standard for decades has been to begin teaching high school BC calculus in spring semester of precalculus. That is how honors precalculus was taught in local districts here prior to AP Precalc. Another PP on this thread noted that that is their district's current policy. BC becomes more rushed if you don't since it covers more content than AB. Why slow down honors students in precalculus by having them run regressions? Two thirds of the AP Precalc exam is effectively Algebra 2. Advanced students don't need that much time for Algebra 2 content; they can do a short Algebra 2 review and then move on to vectors and matrices and then on to calculus.

It’s clear you don’t know what you’re talking about. Link to some evidence that there are honors precalculus classes that do BC in the second semester. Some course description, a catalogue, a syllabus, anything.

AP precalculus is what the vast majority of precalculus (honors) classes cover. Occasionally you’d see more combinatorics, but it’s a minor thing, and it fits better in Statistics anyway.

It’s just bizarre to complain there not enough calculus in precalculus, one full semester, none the less.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not all states have 4 years obligatory math in high school. For example California only has 2 years mandatory, which is why precalculus could be a university class.

But wouldn't it be considered remedial? There are college English classes that cover the absolute basics of grammar and composition, and they're zero-level classes, whereas "Introductory Composition" is 101

All the scoffing is a little ridiculous, elitist and parochial, all at once. The educational requirements are varied across the 50 states not everything is the same as in your neck of the woods.

It would not be remedial, but if course it will not count as a requirement for science and engineering majors. It will count for some other majors like humanities, and frankly you don’t need to take calculus for comparative literature or marketing.

If UC Berkeley has a precalculus course and gives credit to it, it’s good enough as an AP from some random high school. It’s up there with all lower division courses like calculus, multi, Lin alg, etc.
https://math.berkeley.edu/courses/overview/lowerdivcourses/math32

Another benefit is in an age of grade inflation and lax standards there some attempt at an independent evaluation, which I welcome.

But the AP precalc exam is watered down. It only tests on the first three units of AP Precalc, which is roughly 2/3 Algebra 2 content. The exam does not cover the more challenging aspects of precalc.

Check the Berkeley precalculus, it’s the same as what’s on the AP exam.

College Board doesn’t have to do the most challenging course or the most in depth, probably there are honors precalculus classes that are better.

The student should choose whatever makes the most sense to them.

Berkeley's course appears to cover even less content than the watered down AP Precalc exam; no polar functions. Berkeley's course is just a validation of Algebra 2 skills. The SAT does the same thing. But, since the UC no longer considers SAT scores, they appear to need an alternative way to do the same thing.

Berkeley's course name for precalc is interesting. Math 32. Generally, math courses are ordered sequentially in order of difficulty. But calculus is Math 1 at Berkeley. So their options were to label Precalc as Math 0 or give it a higher number. They opted for the latter even though it is incongruous with the ordering of other courses.

There's always kids that need remedial courses in college. Their HS didn't offer good coursework, they struggle on some subjects etc. But we used to just call it remedial, now that term is disfavored.

It isn’t remedial, there’s only two years of math required in high school in California so a student could be done after geometry. Most take 4 years, however given that the UC system serves a large number of California residents, it makes sense to offer precalculus.

Those classes were never called remedial. They are just called the same as they would be in high school, ie algebra geometry etc. Students that need to take them most often go through the CC, where precalculus can be transferred to UC, but algebra and geometry can’t.

It has always been like that, it has nothing to do with SAT, or anything else.

That doesn't mean it's not remedial -- admitting students who don't have the standard college prep background doesn't mean college graduation standards have been lowered, it just means that kids who might not have been admitted previously will be given more help to catch up. That's a good thing, but it doesn't make precalc a college-level course.

I mean, you can argue that if it's taught in college, it's by definition a college-level course, but in that case, you're abandoning standards entire rather than being flexible in how students meet them.

Then you don’t know what remedial is. Not only Precalculus is offered at a university, it also counts towards a degree. Remedial courses don’t earn credit.

You’re writing from the viewpoint of someone intending to major in stem, not everyone follows this path. Whatever you think the standard college prep background is, it’s just too narrow.

AP Precalculus is in the same category as AP Physics 1, 2. It’s not good for a stem degree but it satisfies requirements for other degrees (eg nursing). You wouldn’t say AP Physics is remedial.

DP. Then why put students intending to go on to BC calculus into AP Precalculus?

Who is putting them where? They can choose among courses their school offers.

If the school only offers AP Precalculus and you’re not happy, then talk to the math department, although I’m not sure what the issue is. AP Precalculus is an ok preparation for BC.

Local districts have eliminated honors precalc, opting instead to put honors students into AP Precalc and exclude non-honors students from it. AP Precalc was not designed just to prepare students for calculus since it was assumed that most students taking it would be in 12th grade. As such, the course takes an applied approach and has students spend time running regressions, which are not needed for AP Calc. In contrast, it excludes series and sigma notation which are needed for BC. And, if teachers follow the AP Precalc pacing, there won't be adequate time to cover introductory calculus in the second semester. Honors precalc was better preparation for BC Calc.

Why would they teach Calculus in the precalculus class? Honors students should be able to handle BC in two semesters, not in three like you’re suggesting. Tens of thousands of students do it every year and get a 5 on the exam.

The series prerequisite for Calculus BC is very basic and it’s covered in Algebra. You don’t need that much time for the summation notation.

Precalculus is not supposed to be optimized for giving the maximum edge to students taking BC. Vectors and matrices are still worthwhile for Physics for example.

To be honest all the hand wringing about AP precalculus is a little silly. Its a fine preparation for BC, at least according to published prerequisites.

https://secure-media.collegeboard.org/digitalServices/pdf/ap/ap-course-overviews/ap-calculus-bc-course-overview.pdf

The standard for decades has been to begin teaching high school BC calculus in spring semester of precalculus. That is how honors precalculus was taught in local districts here prior to AP Precalc. Another PP on this thread noted that that is their district's current policy. BC becomes more rushed if you don't since it covers more content than AB. Why slow down honors students in precalculus by having them run regressions? Two thirds of the AP Precalc exam is effectively Algebra 2. Advanced students don't need that much time for Algebra 2 content; they can do a short Algebra 2 review and then move on to vectors and matrices and then on to calculus.

It’s clear you don’t know what you’re talking about. Link to some evidence that there are honors precalculus classes that do BC in the second semester. Some course description, a catalogue, a syllabus, anything.

AP precalculus is what the vast majority of precalculus (honors) classes cover. Occasionally you’d see more combinatorics, but it’s a minor thing, and it fits better in Statistics anyway.

It’s just bizarre to complain there not enough calculus in precalculus, one full semester, none the less.

Prior to the introduction of AP Precalc, there were many districts that began calculus in spring semester precalculus because they found it maximizes student success in BC.

Loudoun LCPS: https://sites.google.com/lcps.org/lcpsprogramofstudies2023-2024/hs-mathematics-courses
Mathematical Analysis H: (Honors Precalc) "Mathematical Analysis also includes an introduction to calculus topics including limits and continuity; the derivative of functions of a single variable; the first and second derivative tests; and curve sketching."

Fairfax FCPS 2022: https://westfieldhs.fcps.edu/sites/default/files/media/inline-files/FINAL%20Westfield%20HS%20Course%20Catalog%202021-22%20.pdf
Precalculus with Trigonometry Honors "The course also includes the study of limits, continuity, maximum and minimum points and values, definition and properties of the derivative, rules of differentiation, equations of tangent lines to polynomial functions, infinite limits, and partial fractions"

Arlington APS old precalc course: https://catalog.apsva.us/sites/default/files/pdf/class/pre-calculus-trigonometry-1115.pdf
Pre-Calculus/Trigonometry "Other major areas include a study of analytic geometry, parametric equations, polar coordinates, sequences and series, discrete mathematics, vectors, matrices, and an introduction to limits and derivatives."

Charlottesville City https://s3.amazonaws.com/scschoolfiles/3437/2023-2024_program_of_studies.pdf
Precalculus Honors "Students study functions, trigonometry, discrete mathematics, data analysis, analytic geometry, limits, and an introduction to calculus"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Some of college has always been remedial.

As we push 75% of the population into college, you have to accept that "college level" no longer has the specificity of meaning that it used to have.

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