SAT/ACT single most predictive factor at Yale

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So, I listened to the whole thing, and there’s some nuance here. A couple of things:

1. He says test scores are particularly predictive on the math side, which seems consistent with what some other schools have said.

2. It’s clear that having test scores makes the academic threshold process much easier—it allows them to say, “yup, test score backs up transcript, this candidate moves on.” So it makes sense that they’d want the scores! And it presumably means (as has been said multiple times) that a very strong transcript with very strong rigor is even more important for TO students to get past the academic screen. Seems clear that good test scores can be really helpful for a borderline academic case.

3. He makes the point that once past the academic screen, test scores are not part of the admissions committee conversation. This helps debunk the oft-repeated idea that if a school is making a decision between two students, the one with the scores/higher scores is obviously going to be selected. Committee is holistic.

4. At the end, he says “I believe test optional admissions is here to stay.” He recommends that current juniors take a test and see how they do to keep options open but also not see it has terribly high stakes since TO is likely to continue.

Math cannot be BS'd like English, which is subjective. Math is pretty black and white. You either can do the math problem or you can't. There's no nuance. That's why my DC likes math much better than English, and they got a 780 on English part of SAT (800 on math) and was in the RMIB magnet program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The average SAT score is 1028. The average ACT score is 19.

Test scores are extremely predictive of college success. That's why there are a ton of scholarships available for high scores. You want a free ride to Alabama? 32-36 will do it. But test optional is not going away. Colleges love the extra applications. But don't think for a minute that your kid in Bethesda or Arlington can get away with not submitting test scores, unless they have some kind of hook.

For the elite schools, your white kid from the burbs is not getting in without a 1500+ or 34. Plus the 4.0. And what makes things annoying is that TO has bumped up average test scores to the stratosphere. It's tough out there.

Not true.
White kid. 33.
In at Cornell last year.

Agriculture? Architecture? Business? Hospitality?

Business

Geographic diversity? Rural/small town/under represented state?

Interesting data point. Bc my schools CC would say don’t submit 33 to ivies. Going TO didnt help most of the white kids I know applying to top 10/15 schools tbh last year.

Wish there was more data/visibility on this and how TO outcomes break when taking account race/ SES.

I’m sure all ivies must admit some white or Asian non-l hooks with 33s!!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The average SAT score is 1028. The average ACT score is 19.

Test scores are extremely predictive of college success. That's why there are a ton of scholarships available for high scores. You want a free ride to Alabama? 32-36 will do it. But test optional is not going away. Colleges love the extra applications. But don't think for a minute that your kid in Bethesda or Arlington can get away with not submitting test scores, unless they have some kind of hook.

For the elite schools, your white kid from the burbs is not getting in without a 1500+ or 34. Plus the 4.0. And what makes things annoying is that TO has bumped up average test scores to the stratosphere. It's tough out there.

Not true.
White kid. 33.
In at Cornell last year.

Agriculture? Architecture? Business? Hospitality?

Business

Geographic diversity? Rural/small town/under represented state?

Please give me some way to dismiss your kid as somehow less deserving of this. Please?

Yup. Actually thought they were going to 'play' the legacy or athlete cards first.

Well, the deans of admission basically said they look at test scores in context of your school/resources. And if yours is below the median test score for this school but is actually way higher than the average for your under resourced/rural/small town/North Dakota HS, that test score is as or more impressive than a 1550 / 34+ from an UMC suburban kid. So the kid that got into Cornell with a 33 may not be from an average or overrepresented geographic area, UMC etc. may have some hook / institutional priority but then again 33 is very close to their middle 50% so who knows. 33 ACT is a very good score and definitely doesn’t put you out of consideration for ivies. I know of a girl who got into Stanford through questbridge with a 29 ACT.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:More evidence says high school performance is the strongest indicator.

But not as applied to these two highly competitive schools. It’s a different applicant body. I’m guessing effort is a bigger factor at less competitive school where most applicants don’t have straight As.

He is saying that lower is okay, but not too low. So a 30 ACT from a kid in a lower level HS is good, but if they kid only has a 26 they would struggle at D. That makes sense. Too low of a SAT/ACT does indicate probability of success is lower. They want to find the 3.9+ UW Gpa kids from troubled schools who will excel at their school.

And yes, I do think some of it is the USNWR that for some reason added important to Pell grant grad rates. These schools have the opportunity to pick the top students in these categories and want to be able to do that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
1. They said it’s most predictive factor period. As I wrote above, it was also said that “Yale found the math score to be particularly predictive for persistence as a science major.” Dartmouth was already on record for that.

It's almost like they're not good at educating undergraduates. Sure, a kid with an 800 in math will find it easier to do a science major without any need for remediation. But that means they're relying on high schools (and test prep companies) to do all the work. Guess they're not really able and willing to help the brilliant future scientists with a 700 or, gasp, 650, achieve that same success over four full years.

There are places for kids with a 700 or gasp a 650 on MATH. However, an Ivy or T25 school in a stem major probably is NOT the best fit for most kids like that. As the classes will be taught for those kids who largely have 780+ in MATH and might have already had the classes in HS that they are retaking freshman year.

However, there are plenty of excellent schools for a strong student to attend where they will fit in well and not struggle

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
1. They said it’s most predictive factor period. As I wrote above, it was also said that “Yale found the math score to be particularly predictive for persistence as a science major.” Dartmouth was already on record for that.

It's almost like they're not good at educating undergraduates. Sure, a kid with an 800 in math will find it easier to do a science major without any need for remediation. But that means they're relying on high schools (and test prep companies) to do all the work. Guess they're not really able and willing to help the brilliant future scientists with a 700 or, gasp, 650, achieve that same success over four full years.

That’s actually true about remediation. They do expect the high schools to teach high school math, which doesn’t always work out. I’ve been told many science professors aren’t interested in remedial education at at least one Ivy (and almost certainly others). Reasonable minds may differ as to whether that’s reasonable.

DUH...anyone at an "elite college" /T25 college should NOT need any remedial education. if they do, then they are at the wrong university.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is one reason the PSAT awards are so valuable. If you get “commended” and/or NRSTRA/NAARA/NHRA/etc. you can report the award, reassuring the school that you’re over the bar, while still keeping your actual SAT score out of their CDS data.

But then, most commended students will likely end up with high SAT scores anyways.. why wouldn't they report it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:More evidence says high school performance is the strongest indicator.

Says the parent whose kid has a 4.4 GPA and is a “bad test taker.” LOL

I was the opposite, I took easy classes and got bad grades in both high school and college, but scored high on the SAT. Now I manage people who went to more prestigious colleges who have degrees relevant to our work.

My so is exactly like you! High SATs/PSATs but mediocre grades because of subjects he doesn't like/care about. What do you do for a living?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:More evidence says high school performance is the strongest indicator.

Says the parent whose kid has a 4.4 GPA and is a “bad test taker.” LOL

I was the opposite, I took easy classes and got bad grades in both high school and college, but scored high on the SAT. Now I manage people who went to more prestigious colleges who have degrees relevant to our work.

My so is exactly like you! High SATs/PSATs but mediocre grades because of subjects he doesn't like/care about. What do you do for a living?

The issue with high scores and low GPA is everyone wonders when the student will decide to give 100% to everything important, not just what interests them. It shows you are capable of more effort than you are putting forth. I agree most like you do come into their own and do well in life, but some take longer than others to realize they have to do well at things that dont interest them as well if it's part of the job

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is one reason the PSAT awards are so valuable. If you get “commended” and/or NRSTRA/NAARA/NHRA/etc. you can report the award, reassuring the school that you’re over the bar, while still keeping your actual SAT score out of their CDS data.

But then, most commended students will likely end up with high SAT scores anyways.. why wouldn't they report it?

You don't report it if the school's 50th percentile is 1550 from prior year and you have 1500 in current year with no other hooks. Don't want to give them an easy 'reject' trigger and hopefully going TO 'forces' them to take a closer look at your app before 'rejecting'.

[Anonymous]

I’ve heard from some Yale science professors that there are more students in need of remedial education over the last few years and most professors are pretty unhappy about it. I wonder if the professors are pushing back a bit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The average SAT score is 1028. The average ACT score is 19.

Test scores are extremely predictive of college success. That's why there are a ton of scholarships available for high scores. You want a free ride to Alabama? 32-36 will do it. But test optional is not going away. Colleges love the extra applications. But don't think for a minute that your kid in Bethesda or Arlington can get away with not submitting test scores, unless they have some kind of hook.

For the elite schools, your white kid from the burbs is not getting in without a 1500+ or 34. Plus the 4.0. And what makes things annoying is that TO has bumped up average test scores to the stratosphere. It's tough out there.

Not true.
White kid. 33.
In at Cornell last year.

Agriculture? Architecture? Business? Hospitality?

Business

Geographic diversity? Rural/small town/under represented state?

Interesting data point. Bc my schools CC would say don’t submit 33 to ivies. Going TO didnt help most of the white kids I know applying to top 10/15 schools tbh last year.

Wish there was more data/visibility on this and how TO outcomes break when taking account race/ SES.

I’m sure all ivies must admit some white or Asian non-l hooks with 33s!!!

Yes they do. You are correct. Don’t let the haters here dissuade you from submitting test scores.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is one reason the PSAT awards are so valuable. If you get “commended” and/or NRSTRA/NAARA/NHRA/etc. you can report the award, reassuring the school that you’re over the bar, while still keeping your actual SAT score out of their CDS data.

But then, most commended students will likely end up with high SAT scores anyways.. why wouldn't they report it?

You don't report it if the school's 50th percentile is 1550 from prior year and you have 1500 in current year with no other hooks. Don't want to give them an easy 'reject' trigger and hopefully going TO 'forces' them to take a closer look at your app before 'rejecting'.

This advice has changed this year at our private. It’s now 25%

[Anonymous]

MIT also found out that tests were valuable predictors of success. That’s why their test optional experiment ended a couple of years ago.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is one reason the PSAT awards are so valuable. If you get “commended” and/or NRSTRA/NAARA/NHRA/etc. you can report the award, reassuring the school that you’re over the bar, while still keeping your actual SAT score out of their CDS data.

But then, most commended students will likely end up with high SAT scores anyways.. why wouldn't they report it?

You don't report it if the school's 50th percentile is 1550 from prior year and you have 1500 in current year with no other hooks. Don't want to give them an easy 'reject' trigger and hopefully going TO 'forces' them to take a closer look at your app before 'rejecting'.

I would submit the 1500 in this case. It's slightly below the median which has been jacked up by TO. It's a great score for the school in question and would backup excellent grades. I fail to understand all the posters on DCUM who are hung up on beating last year's 50th percentile. Has any school come out and recommended this?