SAT/ACT single most predictive factor at Yale

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The average SAT score is 1028. The average ACT score is 19.

Test scores are extremely predictive of college success. That's why there are a ton of scholarships available for high scores. You want a free ride to Alabama? 32-36 will do it. But test optional is not going away. Colleges love the extra applications. But don't think for a minute that your kid in Bethesda or Arlington can get away with not submitting test scores, unless they have some kind of hook.

For the elite schools, your white kid from the burbs is not getting in without a 1500+ or 34. Plus the 4.0. And what makes things annoying is that TO has bumped up average test scores to the stratosphere. It's tough out there.

Not true.
White kid. 33.
In at Cornell last year.

I don't think your kid being one point below the perceived threshold disproves the PP's point. It's an average so there are bound to be admitted students that fall below the average score.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is one reason the PSAT awards are so valuable. If you get “commended” and/or NRSTRA/NAARA/NHRA/etc. you can report the award, reassuring the school that you’re over the bar, while still keeping your actual SAT score out of their CDS data.

yep, and then you don't have to beat yourself up trying to get a 1550.

Getting commended on the PSAT is a heck of a lot easier than getting the 1550 and plus you're one and done. This is seriously the way to go.

That's why TJ withheld those "commended" letters and refused to distribute them to commended students for several years. They didn't want to hurt certain students' feelings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, I listened to the whole thing, and there’s some nuance here. A couple of things:

1. He says test scores are particularly predictive on the math side, which seems consistent with what some other schools have said.

2. It’s clear that having test scores makes the academic threshold process much easier—it allows them to say, “yup, test score backs up transcript, this candidate moves on.” So it makes sense that they’d want the scores! And it presumably means (as has been said multiple times) that a very strong transcript with very strong rigor is even more important for TO students to get past the academic screen. Seems clear that good test scores can be really helpful for a borderline academic case.

3. He makes the point that once past the academic screen, test scores are not part of the admissions committee conversation. This helps debunk the oft-repeated idea that if a school is making a decision between two students, the one with the scores/higher scores is obviously going to be selected. Committee is holistic.

4. At the end, he says “I believe test optional admissions is here to stay.” He recommends that current juniors take a test and see how they do to keep options open but also not see it has terribly high stakes since TO is likely to continue.

Op here.
1. They said it’s most predictive factor period. As I wrote above, it was also said that “Yale found the math score to be particularly predictive for persistence as a science major.” Dartmouth was already on record for that.
2. Agree
3. I wrote, “Not surprisingly, it sounded like although the scores are very important as a threshold matter for determining if student can succeed academically, it sounded like they aren’t that important once that threshold is crossed. This makes sense as they have too many able applicants.” I think this was Yale that addressed this. However, if you look at Scattergrams for different colleges, I don’t think everyone approaches the same way. I wouldn’t extrapolate too broadly. Plus we know they look more closely at math score when they look at relevant prospective major. Interestingly, Dartmouth has discussed at other times using AI in the process. I think it’s likely this meshes well with this threshold score approach, but with some adjustment for context.
4. Clearly TO is here to stay at broad level. They definitely didn’t say that for their institutions, however. The question is whether these institutions keep it. Clearly, they aren’t big fans and it seems to be undermining their diversity efforts. I think they’d cut it if they could. I suspect California students are one of their bigger obstacles. Well, and that they don’t want to decrease application numbers.

Re: 4, I found the exchange between the Yale and Dartmouth deans telling: the Yale dean said TO was here to stay and spoke at length about why. The Dartmouth dean said, “I thought you were going to say that TO is here to stay but that test required would be coming back at more institutions.” And the Yale dean said nothing in response. So I’d guess that Dartmouth is going test preferred/required next year, while Yale will stay TO. Your California guess is probably a good one (and I’m guessing has a much bigger impact on Yale than Dartmouth, which gets far fewer applications overall, and I’d guess comparatively few from the west coast.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, I listened to the whole thing, and there’s some nuance here. A couple of things:

1. He says test scores are particularly predictive on the math side, which seems consistent with what some other schools have said.

2. It’s clear that having test scores makes the academic threshold process much easier—it allows them to say, “yup, test score backs up transcript, this candidate moves on.” So it makes sense that they’d want the scores! And it presumably means (as has been said multiple times) that a very strong transcript with very strong rigor is even more important for TO students to get past the academic screen. Seems clear that good test scores can be really helpful for a borderline academic case.

3. He makes the point that once past the academic screen, test scores are not part of the admissions committee conversation. This helps debunk the oft-repeated idea that if a school is making a decision between two students, the one with the scores/higher scores is obviously going to be selected. Committee is holistic.

4. At the end, he says “I believe test optional admissions is here to stay.” He recommends that current juniors take a test and see how they do to keep options open but also not see it has terribly high stakes since TO is likely to continue.

Op here.
1. They said it’s most predictive factor period. As I wrote above, it was also said that “Yale found the math score to be particularly predictive for persistence as a science major.” Dartmouth was already on record for that.
2. Agree
3. I wrote, “Not surprisingly, it sounded like although the scores are very important as a threshold matter for determining if student can succeed academically, it sounded like they aren’t that important once that threshold is crossed. This makes sense as they have too many able applicants.” I think this was Yale that addressed this. However, if you look at Scattergrams for different colleges, I don’t think everyone approaches the same way. I wouldn’t extrapolate too broadly. Plus we know they look more closely at math score when they look at relevant prospective major. Interestingly, Dartmouth has discussed at other times using AI in the process. I think it’s likely this meshes well with this threshold score approach, but with some adjustment for context.
4. Clearly TO is here to stay at broad level. They definitely didn’t say that for their institutions, however. The question is whether these institutions keep it. Clearly, they aren’t big fans and it seems to be undermining their diversity efforts. I think they’d cut it if they could. I suspect California students are one of their bigger obstacles. Well, and that they don’t want to decrease application numbers.

Re: 4, I found the exchange between the Yale and Dartmouth deans telling: the Yale dean said TO was here to stay and spoke at length about why. The Dartmouth dean said, “I thought you were going to say that TO is here to stay but that test required would be coming back at more institutions.” And the Yale dean said nothing in response. So I’d guess that Dartmouth is going test preferred/required next year, while Yale will stay TO. Your California guess is probably a good one (and I’m guessing has a much bigger impact on Yale than Dartmouth, which gets far fewer applications overall, and I’d guess comparatively few from the west coast.)

Different ways to interpret that pause and no answer but it was an interesting moment. I took it that he wasn’t even going to give a hint and was literally or figuratively shaking his head to Dean Coffin, whose words were trailing off, to indicate he wasn’t going to answer. Glad someone else appreciated this moment though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thanks for sharing, interesting. Requiring scores also helps keep out the upper echelon riff raft. Those privileged over-counseled blood suckers go TO because they don’t have the chops.

Seriously? Both my DCs got 35s yet I still find your take repugnant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Interesting podcast out this week by Dartmouth’s Dean of Admission. While interviewing Yale’s Dean of Admission, Yale shares that SAT/ACT is actually more predictive of academic success than transcript at Yale (despite general surveys nationally showing the reverse). Dartmouth has found same as Yale. These findings are institution-specific and could be limited to these sorts of hyper competitive places. Yale found the math score to be particularly predictive for persistence as a science major. Dartmouth had indicated the same. Clark Univ. said transcript is more predictive for them.

My impression is that Yale and Dartmouth really want scores, especially students coming from underresourced backgrounds, from which, as discussed in podcast, an ACT score of 30, while low for the college, would show ability in context. They are concerned these students aren’t submitting because score is below 25th percentile for college. My prediction is that at least Yale and Dartmouth return to test required or at least more strongly encouraged (Dartmouth has already put out test preferred statement).
Not surprisingly, it sounded like although the scores are very important as a threshold matter for determining if student can succeed academically, it sounded like they aren’t that important once that threshold is crossed. This makes sense as they have too many able applicants.
Discussion starts at minute 6:10 with Yale’s statement at 9:12.

Data Dive, Part 2
https://admissions.dartmouth.edu/follow/admissions-beat-podcast

My opinion as a formerly poor minority kid, is that removing SATs and ACTs from the admission process or lessening their weight, mostly hurts smart poor and minority kids and simply serves to help mediocre rich and upper middle class kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The average SAT score is 1028. The average ACT score is 19.

Test scores are extremely predictive of college success. That's why there are a ton of scholarships available for high scores. You want a free ride to Alabama? 32-36 will do it. But test optional is not going away. Colleges love the extra applications. But don't think for a minute that your kid in Bethesda or Arlington can get away with not submitting test scores, unless they have some kind of hook.

For the elite schools, your white kid from the burbs is not getting in without a 1500+ or 34. Plus the 4.0. And what makes things annoying is that TO has bumped up average test scores to the stratosphere. It's tough out there.

Not true.
White kid. 33.
In at Cornell last year.

Agriculture? Architecture? Business? Hospitality?

Business

Geographic diversity? Rural/small town/under represented state?

[Anonymous]

Yale will be making its decision on testing policy sometime in 2024. I heard maybe in January but nothing definitive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The average SAT score is 1028. The average ACT score is 19.

Test scores are extremely predictive of college success. That's why there are a ton of scholarships available for high scores. You want a free ride to Alabama? 32-36 will do it. But test optional is not going away. Colleges love the extra applications. But don't think for a minute that your kid in Bethesda or Arlington can get away with not submitting test scores, unless they have some kind of hook.

For the elite schools, your white kid from the burbs is not getting in without a 1500+ or 34. Plus the 4.0. And what makes things annoying is that TO has bumped up average test scores to the stratosphere. It's tough out there.

Not true.
White kid. 33.
In at Cornell last year.

I don't think your kid being one point below the perceived threshold disproves the PP's point. It's an average so there are bound to be admitted students that fall below the average score.

Considering this what the PP’s point it actually does:
For the elite schools, your white kid from the burbs is not getting in without a 1500+ or 34. Plus the 4.0.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The average SAT score is 1028. The average ACT score is 19.

Test scores are extremely predictive of college success. That's why there are a ton of scholarships available for high scores. You want a free ride to Alabama? 32-36 will do it. But test optional is not going away. Colleges love the extra applications. But don't think for a minute that your kid in Bethesda or Arlington can get away with not submitting test scores, unless they have some kind of hook.

For the elite schools, your white kid from the burbs is not getting in without a 1500+ or 34. Plus the 4.0. And what makes things annoying is that TO has bumped up average test scores to the stratosphere. It's tough out there.

Not true.
White kid. 33.
In at Cornell last year.

Agriculture? Architecture? Business? Hospitality?

Business

Geographic diversity? Rural/small town/under represented state?

Please give me some way to dismiss your kid as somehow less deserving of this. Please?

[Anonymous]

That's funny. The first mailing we received from any college after my son took the ACT Fall of Junior year was from Yale, followed by the Harvard book and Dartmouth. The letter from Yale actually said 'based on your scores'. That is the only school we have since received mailings from that specifically came out right and cited his test scores for mailing. He scored 36 in verbal/reading. 35s others.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The average SAT score is 1028. The average ACT score is 19.

Test scores are extremely predictive of college success. That's why there are a ton of scholarships available for high scores. You want a free ride to Alabama? 32-36 will do it. But test optional is not going away. Colleges love the extra applications. But don't think for a minute that your kid in Bethesda or Arlington can get away with not submitting test scores, unless they have some kind of hook.

For the elite schools, your white kid from the burbs is not getting in without a 1500+ or 34. Plus the 4.0. And what makes things annoying is that TO has bumped up average test scores to the stratosphere. It's tough out there.

Not true.
White kid. 33.
In at Cornell last year.

Agriculture? Architecture? Business? Hospitality?

Business

Geographic diversity? Rural/small town/under represented state?

Big city private.
No hook (sports/legacy)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The average SAT score is 1028. The average ACT score is 19.

Test scores are extremely predictive of college success. That's why there are a ton of scholarships available for high scores. You want a free ride to Alabama? 32-36 will do it. But test optional is not going away. Colleges love the extra applications. But don't think for a minute that your kid in Bethesda or Arlington can get away with not submitting test scores, unless they have some kind of hook.

For the elite schools, your white kid from the burbs is not getting in without a 1500+ or 34. Plus the 4.0. And what makes things annoying is that TO has bumped up average test scores to the stratosphere. It's tough out there.

Not true.
White kid. 33.
In at Cornell last year.

Agriculture? Architecture? Business? Hospitality?

Business

Geographic diversity? Rural/small town/under represented state?

Please give me some way to dismiss your kid as somehow less deserving of this. Please?

Yup. Actually thought they were going to 'play' the legacy or athlete cards first.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The average SAT score is 1028. The average ACT score is 19.

Test scores are extremely predictive of college success. That's why there are a ton of scholarships available for high scores. You want a free ride to Alabama? 32-36 will do it. But test optional is not going away. Colleges love the extra applications. But don't think for a minute that your kid in Bethesda or Arlington can get away with not submitting test scores, unless they have some kind of hook.

For the elite schools, your white kid from the burbs is not getting in without a 1500+ or 34. Plus the 4.0. And what makes things annoying is that TO has bumped up average test scores to the stratosphere. It's tough out there.

Not true.
White kid. 33.
In at Cornell last year.

Agriculture? Architecture? Business? Hospitality?

Business

Geographic diversity? Rural/small town/under represented state?

Interesting data point. Bc my schools CC would say don’t submit 33 to ivies. Going TO didnt help most of the white kids I know applying to top 10/15 schools tbh last year.

Wish there was more data/visibility on this and how TO outcomes break when taking account race/ SES.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The average SAT score is 1028. The average ACT score is 19.

Test scores are extremely predictive of college success. That's why there are a ton of scholarships available for high scores. You want a free ride to Alabama? 32-36 will do it. But test optional is not going away. Colleges love the extra applications. But don't think for a minute that your kid in Bethesda or Arlington can get away with not submitting test scores, unless they have some kind of hook.

For the elite schools, your white kid from the burbs is not getting in without a 1500+ or 34. Plus the 4.0. And what makes things annoying is that TO has bumped up average test scores to the stratosphere. It's tough out there.

Not true.
White kid. 33.
In at Cornell last year.

I don't think your kid being one point below the perceived threshold disproves the PP's point. It's an average so there are bound to be admitted students that fall below the average score.

Considering this what the PP’s point it actually does:
For the elite schools, your white kid from the burbs is not getting in without a 1500+ or 34. Plus the 4.0.

No one here knows. The 34 is the wrong sword to die on.