Which selective liberal arts schools are really difficult/cutthroat once you are in?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a slight aside, I wonder if graduating with a super high gpa from a slightly easier SLAC is better than a more middling gpa from a more selective school. For example, would employers/grad schools prefer a 4.0 out of Lafayette vs a 3.3 out of Hamilton? Does anyone outside the confines of this chatboard really perceive a quality distinction between those two degrees? 9/10 people haven't heard of either school.

I've been out of college forever. Do employers know ask for GPAs? No one ever asked me though I did list Phi Beta Kappa, etc on my resume (but not GPA).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a slight aside, I wonder if graduating with a super high gpa from a slightly easier SLAC is better than a more middling gpa from a more selective school. For example, would employers/grad schools prefer a 4.0 out of Lafayette vs a 3.3 out of Hamilton? Does anyone outside the confines of this chatboard really perceive a quality distinction between those two degrees? 9/10 people haven't heard of either school.

I've been out of college forever. Do employers know ask for GPAs? No one ever asked me though I did list Phi Beta Kappa, etc on my resume (but not GPA).

*now

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really haven’t heard of any “cutthroat” liberal arts schools. Certainly some are considered very academically rigorous but I feel like that is not competition between the students but between the class itself and the student. I’ve looked at a lot of SLACs and pretty much all of them specifically talk about this.

But that said, there are some SLACs that are considered grind schools. Swarthmore would be one…just discussed on another thread.

OP here. Yes - the thread on Swarthmore inspired me to post but I've been thinking about this a lot recently.

Swarthmore was always a bit too tough to get into so it won't be on our list but I'm wondering if schools that are even a little easier to get into are so rigorous that kids (especially athletes with less time) are often overwhelmed? College needs to be more than just studying all day and night.

So I guess I'm asking - what are the other "grind schools" like Swarthmore that kids got into but felt like it was just too much work?


Swarthmore for sure. Also Williams and Amherst and Carleton.

But Bates should be alright.

Carleton is challenging and intense but not a grind, and students are far from cutthroat.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The advice from our college counselor was to look at schools where our kid was a median admit. Meant our kid turned down more competitive schools for a better fit/less stressful college experience. (I went to Swarthmore and was v supportive of this approach!)

+1 Sent DC to a median admit even though they received acceptance to more competitive schools. (Wash U, Emory).

Has anxiety and was exhausted from high school. I didn't want a nervous breakdown. Felt badly at first, but DC seems to be thriving in a less crazy environment.

+10. Bravo. We did this too and I have always questioned whether it was the right move.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a slight aside, I wonder if graduating with a super high gpa from a slightly easier SLAC is better than a more middling gpa from a more selective school. For example, would employers/grad schools prefer a 4.0 out of Lafayette vs a 3.3 out of Hamilton? Does anyone outside the confines of this chatboard really perceive a quality distinction between those two degrees? 9/10 people haven't heard of either school.

I've been out of college forever. Do employers know ask for GPAs? No one ever asked me though I did list Phi Beta Kappa, etc on my resume (but not GPA).

Not so much that they ask but if you can flash a high GPA, honors, phi beta kappa etc on the resume, it's probably impressive. Whereas the absence of it is not impressive. Maybe a 4.0 at a semi-rigorous school = a 3.3 at a very rigorous school but I don't know how many people are capable of making that adjustment.

[Anonymous]

If you go to school reviews on Niche.com, there's a poll indicating the percentage of "students [who] agree that the workload is easy to manage." Princeton Review also publishes a list of schools where "students study the most." These are hardly scientific sources, but they at least provide loose data points.

FWIW, I assume that the workload is going to be great at any top 10-ish SLAC. But the degree to which the students feel that intensity as part of the school culture may vary. For instance, I'd wager that Swarthmore and Bowdoin students have roughly the same workload from their professors. But, for whatever reason, Bowdoin's reputation is one of being laidback, where Swat has a reputation for intensity.

[Anonymous]

Williams has become insanely cutthroat. DC has had students stop talking to them for not sharing answers, and there's a rise in people attempting to triple major. Avoid at all costs.

[Anonymous]

Grinnell has a reputation for being academically intense to some.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have a 2E male at Oberlin. Definitely not cut throat. But definitely challenging him. Their President is very fitness orient and works out with and supports the sports teams. Then again, she also shut down Oberlin’s participation in sports (traveling to other schools, not conditioning and practice) during 2020-2021 to prioritize in person classes and low COVID rates. Except for one pissed off dad on the parents page, no one really seemed to care. They are there to learn, and happen to be continuing a sport. They aren’t there to play a sport, and happen to need to attend class.

My very non-sporty kid has athlete friends and says all the athletes are really nice except men’s LAX. Do with that what you will. And that athletes don’t really segregate the way they do at other LACs.

For a kid who wants a low key sports environment and to have a good time continuing on with their sport w/some real flexibility to sometimes place academics over sports it’s could be great. For a kid who thrives in a really competitive environment and wants to win at all costs, not so much.

Two interesting things from an ADHD perspective. One, my kid entered in Fall 2020 and could not update neuropsych testing (because lockdowns), so they took his 504. And never followed up to get more documentation. He’s just been able to get informal accommodations as needed. He only needs extended time in advanced math. So when he took multivariable, he talked to the professor and was told to take the time he needed. If he has two big deadlines coming due at once, he talks to a professor, and gets a short extension on one. He has never had a problem in any department making with making reasonable requests, in advance and getting what he needs. It’s a very take charge of your own education/ we are here to help you succeed mentality. After years of battling the school system over every line of his 504, it’s refreshing. They treat him like an adult as long as he doesn’t take advantage of that. And there have been zero accommodation crises.

Now, someone on here will scream unfair to other kids! And soft academically! But the point of Oberlin is that education is collaborative, not competitive, and ideally all kids succeed. And I assume (and hope) that other kids are getting whatever accommodations they need to succeed.

The second thing is his department has adopted “contract grading” for many classes. I’m not sure where the college as a whole is on contract grading. He’s far enough along in his education that I haven’t gotten into the weeds on this. But, the gist seems to be that he has to demonstrate mastery, but works with the professor to decide how to best demonstrate mastery— and when. It’s very student-professor collaborative and basically, whatever the opposite of high stakes testing is. I know he really likes it, is really engaged in his classes, and has a lot of autonomy. And calls the professors in his department by their first name. So when I ask how classes are going, I don’t get, “I’m making a B”. I get “I met with Anna this week and she said I’m on track with my contract”. He can’t give me a grade. And it’s nice to see him focused on the work itself and not the grade.

Here’s some information on contract grading: https://ascode.osu.edu/contract-grading-schemes

Overall, it’s been great for my 2e kid. His grades slipped a bit the first semester he had contract graded classes. (A-/B+ became Bs and one B-). I suspect he thought doing the bare minimum on a contract was enough and his professors did not agree. But then his grades bounced back and he has started really using the contracts to do things he is interested in. And I love his focus on substantive feedback over letter grades.

Hope this helps OP. I’m not sure if Oberlin is what you are looking for. But, it could be.

Oh, interesting! May I ask what department allows contract grading and why he gravitated towards Oberlin in the first place? Any downsides of the school (as most schools have)?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Swarthmore for sure. Sounds like Williams is a lot of work, as is Davidson. Wesleyan more flexible curriculum would help I think and bates seems nice as PP posts. I’d guess Kenyon and Lafayette would more be manageable.

I have heard this from the parent of a kid who went to Williams. Kid was a top performer at our fairly competitive public high school. He got to Williams and was shocked at the intensity of the environment. He liked it, it just took some adjusting.

That experience is common at the top
5-6 LACs and the T10/ivies.

[Anonymous]

Dc at Hamilton. Finds there’s a range of class difficulty. (History depthknown to be hard for example). She gets pretty anxious about her work and has managed well. Not competive and professors extremely accessible and supportive.

[Anonymous]

I would avoid Swarthmore .

My kid was like your kid, and really blossomed at Juniata.

If you are invested in rankings, then Hamilton and Franklin and Narshall might be worth checking out.

[Anonymous]

UNIGO publishes a survey question which asks kids how manageable the workload is.

[Anonymous]

I went to Hamilton (20 years ago). I don’t consider it cutthroat at all. It’s intellectual but always seemed like you would get out of it what you put in. Credential inflation wasn’t a big thing when I was there so Bs and Cs weren’t uncommon.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Seems like an odd question but my son has ADHD and works non stop. He will likely be recruited and get a little boost as a very good athlete (which takes up lots of studying time in HS and college).

He wants a small liberal arts school (Hamilton, Lafayette, Kenyon) type school. I worry for him because while he has good grades (SAT unknown) he works constantly and it's only high school.
I know his many AP classes are about as tough as college classes in a lot of cases but I really worry that he will be overwhelmed in college.

I'm not looking for some college that hands out As at all. Just trying to avoid anywhere that is cutthroat. A friend told me about a niece who dropped out of a SLAC after 2 months because it was just too tough.

That really got me thinking that I don't want to overwhelm him but I still want him to have the experience he wants at a good school where he can balance athletics (likely D3), studying and life.

Bates is one he's looking at but I'm reading it's pretty difficult (hard to judge with student reviews). My son just needs more time to learn than most and athletics make that tough. And no - he refuses to give that up at this point and it should help with admissions so I'm tabling that discussion. Sports will go if academics become too tough.

Any suggestions for schools to look at or stay away from?

Reed