My way to solve APS MS boundaries: MS ATS at williamsburg

[Anonymous]

Not PP here. And I don’t dispute that there are some true believers/pedagogical families out there. But, as has been pointed out, that’s not who you have populating ATS. As evidenced by the HB numbers. It’s these people who feel like winning a lottery in APS actually gets them something “better” educationally for their child. They somehow believe that by “winning” they are avoiding the parents who can’t manage to fill out APS dumb lottery form—which, by the way, is idiot proof. Most N Arlington schools are filled with too involved parents, see all the complaints on this forum about the over advocating of N Arlington PTAs. So it’s nonsense in my view to offer these programs which arent actually serving particular students needs but rather filling irrational parents sense of superiority.

65% of ATS students aren’t white, 35% are economically disadvantaged and 38% are English learners. Compare these numbers to N Arlington schools. Nottingham for example is 73% White, 5% economically disadvantaged and 6% English learners. Tuckahoe, Cardinal, Jamestown, Taylor and Discovery all have similar numbers. ATS doesn’t have the affluent, over involved North Arlington parents you are thinking of.

PP here. Also, i was specifically responding to PP’s assertion that ATS doesn’t have a specific pedagogy. Whether the parents are true believers or not is irrelevant. It has a pedagogy which is direct instruction. That pedagogy is evidence based and makes a huge difference to learning outcomes.

Parents aren’t drawn to pedagogy. I doubt many are even aware of anything about ATS when they apply.

The biggest advantage of options is rock steady enrollment. There is zero chance of over crowding and being crazy overcrowded like McKinely was. They control the entering Kinder class unlike ours where we needed to form a new class but had no rooms.

It’s also great because you have involved parents who took initiative for the lottery, and had the means to handle transportation demands of a non neighborhood school. Sure maybe it’s a “simple form” but it has a strict timeline (you can’t just apply right now for next years lottery, you have to wait till it opens), you get results and must respond in two weeks, etc. it would be easy for a working family to miss one of those deadlines, and how to even know what an option school is? I never heard of such a thing until my kid was in 1st and we met a soccer player from ATS (this was before I found DCUM of course).

What!? Key and Claremont have been two of the most overcrowded schools over the years. The ATS principal somehow persuaded central office that they shouldn't be even when the rest of the system was.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m imagining something where everyone learns Latin, plays an instrument, and sings in the chorus.

Though honestly just calling it “ATS” would probably get enough parents to sign up that the boundaries issue would be solved!

HB2 for middle school would also solve the problem

So you want to guarantee kids in the ATS program at WMS spots in band, orchestra and chorus? How does that work? What if there are not enough spots for the kids in the neighborhood WMS seats?

And please explain how the ATS MS classes would be different from the regular WMS classes? This is where we get into the issue of ATS not really having a pedagogy.

ATS does have a pedagogy. It’s not obvious to people like you but it makes a huge difference learning wise. ATS exclusively uses direct instruction. Most other Arlington schools use inquiry based learning or a combination of inquiry based learning and direct instruction. See this article on direct instruction in math:

https://www.city-journal.org/article/californias-math-framework-is-flawed

It’s sad. The biggest problem with California’s math standards is not that it’s “woke” but that it pushes inquiry based learning. But it’s critics, like you PP, don’t understand what a significant difference the style of instruction makes. So they focus on how “woke” California’s math standards are and you here claim that ATS doesn’t really have a pedagogy.

Not PP here. And I don’t dispute that there are some true believers/pedagogical families out there. But, as has been pointed out, that’s not who you have populating ATS. As evidenced by the HB numbers. It’s these people who feel like winning a lottery in APS actually gets them something “better” educationally for their child. They somehow believe that by “winning” they are avoiding the parents who can’t manage to fill out APS dumb lottery form—which, by the way, is idiot proof. Most N Arlington schools are filled with too involved parents, see all the complaints on this forum about the over advocating of N Arlington PTAs. So it’s nonsense in my view to offer these programs which arent actually serving particular students needs but rather filling irrational parents sense of superiority.

65% of ATS students aren’t white, 35% are economically disadvantaged and 38% are English learners. Compare these numbers to N Arlington schools. Nottingham for example is 73% White, 5% economically disadvantaged and 6% English learners. Tuckahoe, Cardinal, Jamestown, Taylor and Discovery all have similar numbers. ATS doesn’t have the affluent, over involved North Arlington parents you are thinking of.

PP here. Also, i was specifically responding to PP’s assertion that ATS doesn’t have a specific pedagogy. Whether the parents are true believers or not is irrelevant. It has a pedagogy which is direct instruction. That pedagogy is evidence based and makes a huge difference to learning outcomes.

Parents aren’t drawn to pedagogy. I doubt many are even aware of anything about ATS when they apply.

The biggest advantage of options is rock steady enrollment. There is zero chance of over crowding and being crazy overcrowded like McKinely was. They control the entering Kinder class unlike ours where we needed to form a new class but had no rooms.

It’s also great because you have involved parents who took initiative for the lottery, and had the means to handle transportation demands of a non neighborhood school. Sure maybe it’s a “simple form” but it has a strict timeline (you can’t just apply right now for next years lottery, you have to wait till it opens), you get results and must respond in two weeks, etc. it would be easy for a working family to miss one of those deadlines, and how to even know what an option school is? I never heard of such a thing until my kid was in 1st and we met a soccer player from ATS (this was before I found DCUM of course).

Hahah. We found one! Ladies and gentleman, the irrational parents who think that ATS is superior because of APS’ lottery system. You know how dumb your reasons sound?

Head over the Nottingham/Taylor closure listserves and you’ll see what I mean by involved parents. I hear what PP said about who ATS serves but justifying ATS’ community/benefits based on APS lottery is bonkerballs when compared to any N Arlington school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Not PP here. And I don’t dispute that there are some true believers/pedagogical families out there. But, as has been pointed out, that’s not who you have populating ATS. As evidenced by the HB numbers. It’s these people who feel like winning a lottery in APS actually gets them something “better” educationally for their child. They somehow believe that by “winning” they are avoiding the parents who can’t manage to fill out APS dumb lottery form—which, by the way, is idiot proof. Most N Arlington schools are filled with too involved parents, see all the complaints on this forum about the over advocating of N Arlington PTAs. So it’s nonsense in my view to offer these programs which arent actually serving particular students needs but rather filling irrational parents sense of superiority.

65% of ATS students aren’t white, 35% are economically disadvantaged and 38% are English learners. Compare these numbers to N Arlington schools. Nottingham for example is 73% White, 5% economically disadvantaged and 6% English learners. Tuckahoe, Cardinal, Jamestown, Taylor and Discovery all have similar numbers. ATS doesn’t have the affluent, over involved North Arlington parents you are thinking of.

PP here. Also, i was specifically responding to PP’s assertion that ATS doesn’t have a specific pedagogy. Whether the parents are true believers or not is irrelevant. It has a pedagogy which is direct instruction. That pedagogy is evidence based and makes a huge difference to learning outcomes.

Parents aren’t drawn to pedagogy. I doubt many are even aware of anything about ATS when they apply.

The biggest advantage of options is rock steady enrollment. There is zero chance of over crowding and being crazy overcrowded like McKinely was. They control the entering Kinder class unlike ours where we needed to form a new class but had no rooms.

It’s also great because you have involved parents who took initiative for the lottery, and had the means to handle transportation demands of a non neighborhood school. Sure maybe it’s a “simple form” but it has a strict timeline (you can’t just apply right now for next years lottery, you have to wait till it opens), you get results and must respond in two weeks, etc. it would be easy for a working family to miss one of those deadlines, and how to even know what an option school is? I never heard of such a thing until my kid was in 1st and we met a soccer player from ATS (this was before I found DCUM of course).

What!? Key and Claremont have been two of the most overcrowded schools over the years. The ATS principal somehow persuaded central office that they shouldn't be even when the rest of the system was.

You realize that ATS has some of the largest class sizes in the county right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m imagining something where everyone learns Latin, plays an instrument, and sings in the chorus.

Though honestly just calling it “ATS” would probably get enough parents to sign up that the boundaries issue would be solved!

HB2 for middle school would also solve the problem

So you want to guarantee kids in the ATS program at WMS spots in band, orchestra and chorus? How does that work? What if there are not enough spots for the kids in the neighborhood WMS seats?

And please explain how the ATS MS classes would be different from the regular WMS classes? This is where we get into the issue of ATS not really having a pedagogy.

ATS does have a pedagogy. It’s not obvious to people like you but it makes a huge difference learning wise. ATS exclusively uses direct instruction. Most other Arlington schools use inquiry based learning or a combination of inquiry based learning and direct instruction. See this article on direct instruction in math:

https://www.city-journal.org/article/californias-math-framework-is-flawed

It’s sad. The biggest problem with California’s math standards is not that it’s “woke” but that it pushes inquiry based learning. But it’s critics, like you PP, don’t understand what a significant difference the style of instruction makes. So they focus on how “woke” California’s math standards are and you here claim that ATS doesn’t really have a pedagogy.

Not PP here. And I don’t dispute that there are some true believers/pedagogical families out there. But, as has been pointed out, that’s not who you have populating ATS. As evidenced by the HB numbers. It’s these people who feel like winning a lottery in APS actually gets them something “better” educationally for their child. They somehow believe that by “winning” they are avoiding the parents who can’t manage to fill out APS dumb lottery form—which, by the way, is idiot proof. Most N Arlington schools are filled with too involved parents, see all the complaints on this forum about the over advocating of N Arlington PTAs. So it’s nonsense in my view to offer these programs which arent actually serving particular students needs but rather filling irrational parents sense of superiority.

65% of ATS students aren’t white, 35% are economically disadvantaged and 38% are English learners. Compare these numbers to N Arlington schools. Nottingham for example is 73% White, 5% economically disadvantaged and 6% English learners. Tuckahoe, Cardinal, Jamestown, Taylor and Discovery all have similar numbers. ATS doesn’t have the affluent, over involved North Arlington parents you are thinking of.

PP here. Also, i was specifically responding to PP’s assertion that ATS doesn’t have a specific pedagogy. Whether the parents are true believers or not is irrelevant. It has a pedagogy which is direct instruction. That pedagogy is evidence based and makes a huge difference to learning outcomes.

Parents aren’t drawn to pedagogy. I doubt many are even aware of anything about ATS when they apply.

The biggest advantage of options is rock steady enrollment. There is zero chance of over crowding and being crazy overcrowded like McKinely was. They control the entering Kinder class unlike ours where we needed to form a new class but had no rooms.

It’s also great because you have involved parents who took initiative for the lottery, and had the means to handle transportation demands of a non neighborhood school. Sure maybe it’s a “simple form” but it has a strict timeline (you can’t just apply right now for next years lottery, you have to wait till it opens), you get results and must respond in two weeks, etc. it would be easy for a working family to miss one of those deadlines, and how to even know what an option school is? I never heard of such a thing until my kid was in 1st and we met a soccer player from ATS (this was before I found DCUM of course).

Hahah. We found one! Ladies and gentleman, the irrational parents who think that ATS is superior because of APS’ lottery system. You know how dumb your reasons sound?

Head over the Nottingham/Taylor closure listserves and you’ll see what I mean by involved parents. I hear what PP said about who ATS serves but justifying ATS’ community/benefits based on APS lottery is bonkerballs when compared to any N Arlington school.

I am the PP who provided the statistics about who ATS serves. To be clear I am not the same person who believes that ATS benefits is based on the fact that it’s a lottery. I doubt any ATS parent believes that. ATS parents are attracted to the school because it uses a traditional pedagogy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Seriously, though. If they started an ATS for middle school, they’d have a long waitlist of kids willing to schlep to Williamsburg for a program-within-a-school like Immersion and Montessori are.

Don't you realize the typical ATS family is drawn to HBW for ms?

OP here - so open another HB! We are almost back to the point of having an abundance of seats like back when the options first started, so let’s get creative again and give more people what they want rather than just rearrange deck chairs.

There is no abundance of seats; Gunston is overcrowded.

South Arl Families already make up the bulk of kids at ATS. Williamsburg is right around the corner. They’d go on there and reduce future overcrowding at gunston.

that true?

Yes. See the other thread on ATS v. Cardinal.

based on my count it's about 50% 50% N and S, no? so a good distribution then?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m imagining something where everyone learns Latin, plays an instrument, and sings in the chorus.

Though honestly just calling it “ATS” would probably get enough parents to sign up that the boundaries issue would be solved!

HB2 for middle school would also solve the problem

So you want to guarantee kids in the ATS program at WMS spots in band, orchestra and chorus? How does that work? What if there are not enough spots for the kids in the neighborhood WMS seats?

And please explain how the ATS MS classes would be different from the regular WMS classes? This is where we get into the issue of ATS not really having a pedagogy.

Wait, do kids at WMS have to compete to get into band, orchestra, and chorus? Serious question. I thought only MS sports like soccer, basketball, etc . had a cut?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m imagining something where everyone learns Latin, plays an instrument, and sings in the chorus.

Though honestly just calling it “ATS” would probably get enough parents to sign up that the boundaries issue would be solved!

HB2 for middle school would also solve the problem

So you want to guarantee kids in the ATS program at WMS spots in band, orchestra and chorus? How does that work? What if there are not enough spots for the kids in the neighborhood WMS seats?

And please explain how the ATS MS classes would be different from the regular WMS classes? This is where we get into the issue of ATS not really having a pedagogy.

Wait, do kids at WMS have to compete to get into band, orchestra, and chorus? Serious question. I thought only MS sports like soccer, basketball, etc . had a cut?

In the big secondary schools kids often don’t get the electives they want. Maybe WMS is better now that it’s so under enrolled, but I don’t think it’s fair to neighborhood kids to guarantee spots in certain electives to ATS kids at expense of neighborhood kids zoned there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m imagining something where everyone learns Latin, plays an instrument, and sings in the chorus.

Though honestly just calling it “ATS” would probably get enough parents to sign up that the boundaries issue would be solved!

HB2 for middle school would also solve the problem

So you want to guarantee kids in the ATS program at WMS spots in band, orchestra and chorus? How does that work? What if there are not enough spots for the kids in the neighborhood WMS seats?

And please explain how the ATS MS classes would be different from the regular WMS classes? This is where we get into the issue of ATS not really having a pedagogy.

Wait, do kids at WMS have to compete to get into band, orchestra, and chorus? Serious question. I thought only MS sports like soccer, basketball, etc . had a cut?

In the big secondary schools kids often don’t get the electives they want. Maybe WMS is better now that it’s so under enrolled, but I don’t think it’s fair to neighborhood kids to guarantee spots in certain electives to ATS kids at expense of neighborhood kids zoned there.

No, I was asking what the current (or recent) situation is (was)? Since the "ATS Middle Program at WMS" is entirely fictional and not actually happening, no ATS kids get any spots for any electives.

I know that band/orchestra/chorus were "advertising" to be chosen at several middle schools where we attended the info sessions. So, at WMS the kids have to compete for a spot in those??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m imagining something where everyone learns Latin, plays an instrument, and sings in the chorus.

Though honestly just calling it “ATS” would probably get enough parents to sign up that the boundaries issue would be solved!

HB2 for middle school would also solve the problem

So you want to guarantee kids in the ATS program at WMS spots in band, orchestra and chorus? How does that work? What if there are not enough spots for the kids in the neighborhood WMS seats?

And please explain how the ATS MS classes would be different from the regular WMS classes? This is where we get into the issue of ATS not really having a pedagogy.

Wait, do kids at WMS have to compete to get into band, orchestra, and chorus? Serious question. I thought only MS sports like soccer, basketball, etc . had a cut?

In the big secondary schools kids often don’t get the electives they want. Maybe WMS is better now that it’s so under enrolled, but I don’t think it’s fair to neighborhood kids to guarantee spots in certain electives to ATS kids at expense of neighborhood kids zoned there.

No, I was asking what the current (or recent) situation is (was)? Since the "ATS Middle Program at WMS" is entirely fictional and not actually happening, no ATS kids get any spots for any electives.

I know that band/orchestra/chorus were "advertising" to be chosen at several middle schools where we attended the info sessions. So, at WMS the kids have to compete for a spot in those??

My info is a few years old. Don’t recall competition per se like sports teams as these are elective classes. But kids did not always get the elective they wanted because sometimes the classes filled up so I guess it’s competitive in that sense. I am not sure how they gave priority. Maybe this isn’t a current problem at WMS anymore since the school is under enrolled now.