My way to solve APS MS boundaries: MS ATS at williamsburg

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m imagining something where everyone learns Latin, plays an instrument, and sings in the chorus.

Though honestly just calling it “ATS” would probably get enough parents to sign up that the boundaries issue would be solved!

HB2 for middle school would also solve the problem

So you want to guarantee kids in the ATS program at WMS spots in band, orchestra and chorus? How does that work? What if there are not enough spots for the kids in the neighborhood WMS seats?

And please explain how the ATS MS classes would be different from the regular WMS classes? This is where we get into the issue of ATS not really having a pedagogy.

ATS does have a pedagogy. It’s not obvious to people like you but it makes a huge difference learning wise. ATS exclusively uses direct instruction. Most other Arlington schools use inquiry based learning or a combination of inquiry based learning and direct instruction. See this article on direct instruction in math:

https://www.city-journal.org/article/californias-math-framework-is-flawed

It’s sad. The biggest problem with California’s math standards is not that it’s “woke” but that it pushes inquiry based learning. But it’s critics, like you PP, don’t understand what a significant difference the style of instruction makes. So they focus on how “woke” California’s math standards are and you here claim that ATS doesn’t really have a pedagogy.

Not PP here. And I don’t dispute that there are some true believers/pedagogical families out there. But, as has been pointed out, that’s not who you have populating ATS. As evidenced by the HB numbers. It’s these people who feel like winning a lottery in APS actually gets them something “better” educationally for their child. They somehow believe that by “winning” they are avoiding the parents who can’t manage to fill out APS dumb lottery form—which, by the way, is idiot proof. Most N Arlington schools are filled with too involved parents, see all the complaints on this forum about the over advocating of N Arlington PTAs. So it’s nonsense in my view to offer these programs which arent actually serving particular students needs but rather filling irrational parents sense of superiority.

65% of ATS students aren’t white, 35% are economically disadvantaged and 38% are English learners. Compare these numbers to N Arlington schools. Nottingham for example is 73% White, 5% economically disadvantaged and 6% English learners. Tuckahoe, Cardinal, Jamestown, Taylor and Discovery all have similar numbers. ATS doesn’t have the affluent, over involved North Arlington parents you are thinking of.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m imagining something where everyone learns Latin, plays an instrument, and sings in the chorus.

Though honestly just calling it “ATS” would probably get enough parents to sign up that the boundaries issue would be solved!

HB2 for middle school would also solve the problem

So you want to guarantee kids in the ATS program at WMS spots in band, orchestra and chorus? How does that work? What if there are not enough spots for the kids in the neighborhood WMS seats?

And please explain how the ATS MS classes would be different from the regular WMS classes? This is where we get into the issue of ATS not really having a pedagogy.

ATS does have a pedagogy. It’s not obvious to people like you but it makes a huge difference learning wise. ATS exclusively uses direct instruction. Most other Arlington schools use inquiry based learning or a combination of inquiry based learning and direct instruction. See this article on direct instruction in math:

https://www.city-journal.org/article/californias-math-framework-is-flawed

It’s sad. The biggest problem with California’s math standards is not that it’s “woke” but that it pushes inquiry based learning. But it’s critics, like you PP, don’t understand what a significant difference the style of instruction makes. So they focus on how “woke” California’s math standards are and you here claim that ATS doesn’t really have a pedagogy.

Not PP here. And I don’t dispute that there are some true believers/pedagogical families out there. But, as has been pointed out, that’s not who you have populating ATS. As evidenced by the HB numbers. It’s these people who feel like winning a lottery in APS actually gets them something “better” educationally for their child. They somehow believe that by “winning” they are avoiding the parents who can’t manage to fill out APS dumb lottery form—which, by the way, is idiot proof. Most N Arlington schools are filled with too involved parents, see all the complaints on this forum about the over advocating of N Arlington PTAs. So it’s nonsense in my view to offer these programs which arent actually serving particular students needs but rather filling irrational parents sense of superiority.

65% of ATS students aren’t white, 35% are economically disadvantaged and 38% are English learners. Compare these numbers to N Arlington schools. Nottingham for example is 73% White, 5% economically disadvantaged and 6% English learners. Tuckahoe, Cardinal, Jamestown, Taylor and Discovery all have similar numbers. ATS doesn’t have the affluent, over involved North Arlington parents you are thinking of.

PP here. Also, i was specifically responding to PP’s assertion that ATS doesn’t have a specific pedagogy. Whether the parents are true believers or not is irrelevant. It has a pedagogy which is direct instruction. That pedagogy is evidence based and makes a huge difference to learning outcomes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m imagining something where everyone learns Latin, plays an instrument, and sings in the chorus.

Though honestly just calling it “ATS” would probably get enough parents to sign up that the boundaries issue would be solved!

HB2 for middle school would also solve the problem

So you want to guarantee kids in the ATS program at WMS spots in band, orchestra and chorus? How does that work? What if there are not enough spots for the kids in the neighborhood WMS seats?

And please explain how the ATS MS classes would be different from the regular WMS classes? This is where we get into the issue of ATS not really having a pedagogy.

ATS does have a pedagogy. It’s not obvious to people like you but it makes a huge difference learning wise. ATS exclusively uses direct instruction. Most other Arlington schools use inquiry based learning or a combination of inquiry based learning and direct instruction. See this article on direct instruction in math:

https://www.city-journal.org/article/californias-math-framework-is-flawed

It’s sad. The biggest problem with California’s math standards is not that it’s “woke” but that it pushes inquiry based learning. But it’s critics, like you PP, don’t understand what a significant difference the style of instruction makes. So they focus on how “woke” California’s math standards are and you here claim that ATS doesn’t really have a pedagogy.

Not PP here. And I don’t dispute that there are some true believers/pedagogical families out there. But, as has been pointed out, that’s not who you have populating ATS. As evidenced by the HB numbers. It’s these people who feel like winning a lottery in APS actually gets them something “better” educationally for their child. They somehow believe that by “winning” they are avoiding the parents who can’t manage to fill out APS dumb lottery form—which, by the way, is idiot proof. Most N Arlington schools are filled with too involved parents, see all the complaints on this forum about the over advocating of N Arlington PTAs. So it’s nonsense in my view to offer these programs which arent actually serving particular students needs but rather filling irrational parents sense of superiority.

65% of ATS students aren’t white, 35% are economically disadvantaged and 38% are English learners. Compare these numbers to N Arlington schools. Nottingham for example is 73% White, 5% economically disadvantaged and 6% English learners. Tuckahoe, Cardinal, Jamestown, Taylor and Discovery all have similar numbers. ATS doesn’t have the affluent, over involved North Arlington parents you are thinking of.

PP here. Also, i was specifically responding to PP’s assertion that ATS doesn’t have a specific pedagogy. Whether the parents are true believers or not is irrelevant. It has a pedagogy which is direct instruction. That pedagogy is evidence based and makes a huge difference to learning outcomes.

Np. You're wrong. There is no pedagogy. It can't be mapped, at least not yet, and certainly isn't certified or recognized by third-party institutions. You're describing a teaching style commonly called lecturing. As for FRl, that is entirely controlled by APS at all options and is makes it an irrelevant point. APS would be in trouble, maybe even federally, otherwise. Notice someone else above in this thread makes the point about tracking where the demand for ATS comes from, not who gets let in by APS in end. ATS v. Cardinal? Those questions make at least half of APS laugh out loud.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:IMO, if a kid accepts a lottery spot, that should mean they aren’t able to apply for any other lottery programs. So families should pick what’s really important for that kid — if it’s ATS, great. But then no applying for HB for middle school.

Except that Key, Claremont, and Campbell are all lotteries too but might not fill a whole class if folks knew they would blowing their whole lottery shot for all of K-12 with elementary school. They don’t have long wait lists. I can’t remember how long the Montessori wait list is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m imagining something where everyone learns Latin, plays an instrument, and sings in the chorus.

Though honestly just calling it “ATS” would probably get enough parents to sign up that the boundaries issue would be solved!

HB2 for middle school would also solve the problem

So you want to guarantee kids in the ATS program at WMS spots in band, orchestra and chorus? How does that work? What if there are not enough spots for the kids in the neighborhood WMS seats?

And please explain how the ATS MS classes would be different from the regular WMS classes? This is where we get into the issue of ATS not really having a pedagogy.

ATS does have a pedagogy. It’s not obvious to people like you but it makes a huge difference learning wise. ATS exclusively uses direct instruction. Most other Arlington schools use inquiry based learning or a combination of inquiry based learning and direct instruction. See this article on direct instruction in math:

https://www.city-journal.org/article/californias-math-framework-is-flawed

It’s sad. The biggest problem with California’s math standards is not that it’s “woke” but that it pushes inquiry based learning. But it’s critics, like you PP, don’t understand what a significant difference the style of instruction makes. So they focus on how “woke” California’s math standards are and you here claim that ATS doesn’t really have a pedagogy.

Not PP here. And I don’t dispute that there are some true believers/pedagogical families out there. But, as has been pointed out, that’s not who you have populating ATS. As evidenced by the HB numbers. It’s these people who feel like winning a lottery in APS actually gets them something “better” educationally for their child. They somehow believe that by “winning” they are avoiding the parents who can’t manage to fill out APS dumb lottery form—which, by the way, is idiot proof. Most N Arlington schools are filled with too involved parents, see all the complaints on this forum about the over advocating of N Arlington PTAs. So it’s nonsense in my view to offer these programs which arent actually serving particular students needs but rather filling irrational parents sense of superiority.

65% of ATS students aren’t white, 35% are economically disadvantaged and 38% are English learners. Compare these numbers to N Arlington schools. Nottingham for example is 73% White, 5% economically disadvantaged and 6% English learners. Tuckahoe, Cardinal, Jamestown, Taylor and Discovery all have similar numbers. ATS doesn’t have the affluent, over involved North Arlington parents you are thinking of.

PP here. Also, i was specifically responding to PP’s assertion that ATS doesn’t have a specific pedagogy. Whether the parents are true believers or not is irrelevant. It has a pedagogy which is direct instruction. That pedagogy is evidence based and makes a huge difference to learning outcomes.

Parents aren’t drawn to pedagogy. I doubt many are even aware of anything about ATS when they apply.

The biggest advantage of options is rock steady enrollment. There is zero chance of over crowding and being crazy overcrowded like McKinely was. They control the entering Kinder class unlike ours where we needed to form a new class but had no rooms.

It’s also great because you have involved parents who took initiative for the lottery, and had the means to handle transportation demands of a non neighborhood school. Sure maybe it’s a “simple form” but it has a strict timeline (you can’t just apply right now for next years lottery, you have to wait till it opens), you get results and must respond in two weeks, etc. it would be easy for a working family to miss one of those deadlines, and how to even know what an option school is? I never heard of such a thing until my kid was in 1st and we met a soccer player from ATS (this was before I found DCUM of course).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:IMO, if a kid accepts a lottery spot, that should mean they aren’t able to apply for any other lottery programs. So families should pick what’s really important for that kid — if it’s ATS, great. But then no applying for HB for middle school.

How does that make sense? If the pedology is the same they should be allowed to apply. Or are you saying those who are in Spanish immersion in elementary school shouldn’t be allowed to apply for middle school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMO, if a kid accepts a lottery spot, that should mean they aren’t able to apply for any other lottery programs. So families should pick what’s really important for that kid — if it’s ATS, great. But then no applying for HB for middle school.

How does that make sense? If the pedology is the same they should be allowed to apply. Or are you saying those who are in Spanish immersion in elementary school shouldn’t be allowed to apply for middle school?

I think they're saying ATS and Montessori and Immersion should not be able to apply for HBW or AT or, by their statement, for IB transfer into WL if they aren't a WL student. So, ATS and Montessori would go to their neighborhood MS and HS only; immersion students could continue through HS. IOW, you pick your one "pedagogy"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m imagining something where everyone learns Latin, plays an instrument, and sings in the chorus.

Though honestly just calling it “ATS” would probably get enough parents to sign up that the boundaries issue would be solved!

HB2 for middle school would also solve the problem

So you want to guarantee kids in the ATS program at WMS spots in band, orchestra and chorus? How does that work? What if there are not enough spots for the kids in the neighborhood WMS seats?

And please explain how the ATS MS classes would be different from the regular WMS classes? This is where we get into the issue of ATS not really having a pedagogy.

ATS does have a pedagogy. It’s not obvious to people like you but it makes a huge difference learning wise. ATS exclusively uses direct instruction. Most other Arlington schools use inquiry based learning or a combination of inquiry based learning and direct instruction. See this article on direct instruction in math:

https://www.city-journal.org/article/californias-math-framework-is-flawed

It’s sad. The biggest problem with California’s math standards is not that it’s “woke” but that it pushes inquiry based learning. But it’s critics, like you PP, don’t understand what a significant difference the style of instruction makes. So they focus on how “woke” California’s math standards are and you here claim that ATS doesn’t really have a pedagogy.

Not PP here. And I don’t dispute that there are some true believers/pedagogical families out there. But, as has been pointed out, that’s not who you have populating ATS. As evidenced by the HB numbers. It’s these people who feel like winning a lottery in APS actually gets them something “better” educationally for their child. They somehow believe that by “winning” they are avoiding the parents who can’t manage to fill out APS dumb lottery form—which, by the way, is idiot proof. Most N Arlington schools are filled with too involved parents, see all the complaints on this forum about the over advocating of N Arlington PTAs. So it’s nonsense in my view to offer these programs which arent actually serving particular students needs but rather filling irrational parents sense of superiority.

65% of ATS students aren’t white, 35% are economically disadvantaged and 38% are English learners. Compare these numbers to N Arlington schools. Nottingham for example is 73% White, 5% economically disadvantaged and 6% English learners. Tuckahoe, Cardinal, Jamestown, Taylor and Discovery all have similar numbers. ATS doesn’t have the affluent, over involved North Arlington parents you are thinking of.

PP here. Also, i was specifically responding to PP’s assertion that ATS doesn’t have a specific pedagogy. Whether the parents are true believers or not is irrelevant. It has a pedagogy which is direct instruction. That pedagogy is evidence based and makes a huge difference to learning outcomes.

Np. You're wrong. There is no pedagogy. It can't be mapped, at least not yet, and certainly isn't certified or recognized by third-party institutions. You're describing a teaching style commonly called lecturing. As for FRl, that is entirely controlled by APS at all options and is makes it an irrelevant point. APS would be in trouble, maybe even federally, otherwise. Notice someone else above in this thread makes the point about tracking where the demand for ATS comes from, not who gets let in by APS in end. ATS v. Cardinal? Those questions make at least half of APS laugh out loud.

Google the definition of pedagogy and research the importance direct instruction has on learning outcomes. You may think this is some mere “teaching style.” But it actually significantly affects learning outcomes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m imagining something where everyone learns Latin, plays an instrument, and sings in the chorus.

Though honestly just calling it “ATS” would probably get enough parents to sign up that the boundaries issue would be solved!

HB2 for middle school would also solve the problem

So you want to guarantee kids in the ATS program at WMS spots in band, orchestra and chorus? How does that work? What if there are not enough spots for the kids in the neighborhood WMS seats?

And please explain how the ATS MS classes would be different from the regular WMS classes? This is where we get into the issue of ATS not really having a pedagogy.

ATS does have a pedagogy. It’s not obvious to people like you but it makes a huge difference learning wise. ATS exclusively uses direct instruction. Most other Arlington schools use inquiry based learning or a combination of inquiry based learning and direct instruction. See this article on direct instruction in math:

https://www.city-journal.org/article/californias-math-framework-is-flawed

It’s sad. The biggest problem with California’s math standards is not that it’s “woke” but that it pushes inquiry based learning. But it’s critics, like you PP, don’t understand what a significant difference the style of instruction makes. So they focus on how “woke” California’s math standards are and you here claim that ATS doesn’t really have a pedagogy.

Not PP here. And I don’t dispute that there are some true believers/pedagogical families out there. But, as has been pointed out, that’s not who you have populating ATS. As evidenced by the HB numbers. It’s these people who feel like winning a lottery in APS actually gets them something “better” educationally for their child. They somehow believe that by “winning” they are avoiding the parents who can’t manage to fill out APS dumb lottery form—which, by the way, is idiot proof. Most N Arlington schools are filled with too involved parents, see all the complaints on this forum about the over advocating of N Arlington PTAs. So it’s nonsense in my view to offer these programs which arent actually serving particular students needs but rather filling irrational parents sense of superiority.

65% of ATS students aren’t white, 35% are economically disadvantaged and 38% are English learners. Compare these numbers to N Arlington schools. Nottingham for example is 73% White, 5% economically disadvantaged and 6% English learners. Tuckahoe, Cardinal, Jamestown, Taylor and Discovery all have similar numbers. ATS doesn’t have the affluent, over involved North Arlington parents you are thinking of.

PP here. Also, i was specifically responding to PP’s assertion that ATS doesn’t have a specific pedagogy. Whether the parents are true believers or not is irrelevant. It has a pedagogy which is direct instruction. That pedagogy is evidence based and makes a huge difference to learning outcomes.

Parents aren’t drawn to pedagogy. I doubt many are even aware of anything about ATS when they apply.

The biggest advantage of options is rock steady enrollment. There is zero chance of over crowding and being crazy overcrowded like McKinely was. They control the entering Kinder class unlike ours where we needed to form a new class but had no rooms.

It’s also great because you have involved parents who took initiative for the lottery, and had the means to handle transportation demands of a non neighborhood school. Sure maybe it’s a “simple form” but it has a strict timeline (you can’t just apply right now for next years lottery, you have to wait till it opens), you get results and must respond in two weeks, etc. it would be easy for a working family to miss one of those deadlines, and how to even know what an option school is? I never heard of such a thing until my kid was in 1st and we met a soccer player from ATS (this was before I found DCUM of course).

I’m assuming your kids aren’t at ATS so why do people like you without kids at ATS keep making assumptions about ATS parents? Parents like ATS because of results. Kids at ATS learn and do well. The academics are top notch and behavior is emphasized. That’s why they enroll their kids there. If you ask any immigrant parent (and I am one of them) why their kids are in ATS the majority will respond by saying because it’s like the schools we went to which are traditional in their learning style. That has everything to do with its pedagogy. As for the ability to navigate the lottery, why does this only seem to come up with ATS? Campbell, Montessori, Key and Claremont all have to navigate the lottery but the schools aren’t doing too well academically are they?

[Anonymous]

I love the ATS haters. On the one hand ATS’ pedagogy is so important, so distinct, that ATS students should not be allowed to apply to HB Woodlawn which has the opposite pedagogy. On the other hand, ATS doesn’t have a pedagogy at all and there is no difference between it and other APS schools (other than the fact that it has type a affluent parents who know how to navigate a super complex lottery) and therefore should not exist at all. Pick your argument.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMO, if a kid accepts a lottery spot, that should mean they aren’t able to apply for any other lottery programs. So families should pick what’s really important for that kid — if it’s ATS, great. But then no applying for HB for middle school.

How does that make sense? If the pedology is the same they should be allowed to apply. Or are you saying those who are in Spanish immersion in elementary school shouldn’t be allowed to apply for middle school?

I think they're saying ATS and Montessori and Immersion should not be able to apply for HBW or AT or, by their statement, for IB transfer into WL if they aren't a WL student. So, ATS and Montessori would go to their neighborhood MS and HS only; immersion students could continue through HS. IOW, you pick your one "pedagogy"

I’m the pp and, yes, I’d say parents have to choose – at least for elementary and middle school. Open it back up to the lottery winners for HS, maybe.

APS doesn’t care what some rando parent on DCUM thinks, so ATS parents shouldn’t stress that their precious HB allotment will be eliminated. Or anyone else for that matter. But it’s completely ridiculous that a majority of ATS parents then apply for HB. It’s a pretty hard pivot from ATS to HB, so…what drives that? A perception that their designated MS/HS isn’t “good enough?”

To OPs original point, an ATS-style MS anywhere would be extremely desirable to APS parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I love the ATS haters. On the one hand ATS’ pedagogy is so important, so distinct, that ATS students should not be allowed to apply to HB Woodlawn which has the opposite pedagogy. On the other hand, ATS doesn’t have a pedagogy at all and there is no difference between it and other APS schools (other than the fact that it has type a affluent parents who know how to navigate a super complex lottery) and therefore should not exist at all. Pick your argument.

You know there are different posters, right? No one person is making both of those arguments at the same time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMO, if a kid accepts a lottery spot, that should mean they aren’t able to apply for any other lottery programs. So families should pick what’s really important for that kid — if it’s ATS, great. But then no applying for HB for middle school.

How does that make sense? If the pedology is the same they should be allowed to apply. Or are you saying those who are in Spanish immersion in elementary school shouldn’t be allowed to apply for middle school?

I think they're saying ATS and Montessori and Immersion should not be able to apply for HBW or AT or, by their statement, for IB transfer into WL if they aren't a WL student. So, ATS and Montessori would go to their neighborhood MS and HS only; immersion students could continue through HS. IOW, you pick your one "pedagogy"

I’m the pp and, yes, I’d say parents have to choose – at least for elementary and middle school. Open it back up to the lottery winners for HS, maybe.

APS doesn’t care what some rando parent on DCUM thinks, so ATS parents shouldn’t stress that their precious HB allotment will be eliminated. Or anyone else for that matter. But it’s completely ridiculous that a majority of ATS parents then apply for HB. It’s a pretty hard pivot from ATS to HB, so…what drives that? A perception that their designated MS/HS isn’t “good enough?”

To OPs original point, an ATS-style MS anywhere would be extremely desirable to APS parents.

I doubt most ATS parents would care since only a few spots are offered to ATS students. It’s either 2 or 3 I forgot. ATS parents that apply to HB are mostly worried about how their kid will fit in socially at a middle school where most of the kids were together in elementary school. So they figure their kid will have an easier time fitting in a school where all the kids don’t know each other. Also there is a reputation that HB has less behavioral and drug issues than other APS middle and high schools which worry many parents, especially immigrant parents. I won’t be applying to HB for my ATS kids because more ATS students will be with them in their neighborhood middle school than the few allowed at HB. Also I’m quite traditional and the idea that kids can call their teachers by their first name is really weird to me lol.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love the ATS haters. On the one hand ATS’ pedagogy is so important, so distinct, that ATS students should not be allowed to apply to HB Woodlawn which has the opposite pedagogy. On the other hand, ATS doesn’t have a pedagogy at all and there is no difference between it and other APS schools (other than the fact that it has type a affluent parents who know how to navigate a super complex lottery) and therefore should not exist at all. Pick your argument.

You know there are different posters, right? No one person is making both of those arguments at the same time.

So one of these arguments must be false then. Either ATS has a pedagogy or it doesn’t.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Interesting. What does that look like? I’m mostly loathe to support more option programs but I’m curious what the curriculum would look like.

As an ATS parent I would envision a school where everyone is forced to play an instrument, learn a second language, perform in a play, has a dress code and is strict discipline wise. Also low technology.

Other than the dress code, I don’t see how this is different from regular middle school. Or different from the ib program at tj. Do a lot of ats kids do the in program?