Cities starting to ban scooters. DC to follow?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ugh, PP, we get it -- cars are worse than scooters. Environmentally and in terms of harming people. Yes, I agree. But we live in a society that has designated a space for cars and the cars largely stay in that space.

Motorized scooters are a new addition and there's no safe place for them in the current infrastructure. They go too fast on sidewalks to be safe for pedestrians (and yes, people on scooters act entitled to have pedestrians move out of their way even though pedestrians are using the sidewalks as designed and shouldn't be expected to yield in that space). They are not fast enough for bike lanes, and of course it would not be safe for scooters to be in car lanes.

We went through this with bikes, too -- for a long time cyclists wanted to be able to use sidewalks because they didn't like being in the street with the cars (understandably). But pedestrians need a space that is just for them.

I'd support moves to ban cars from certain streets, increase taxes on cars and driving, and change the infrastructure focus away from cars and towards public transportation and alternative modes of transit. But none of that changes my opinion on scooters, which is that they are unsafe on sidewalks and endanger pedestrians.

Maybe if we created more carless streets, scooters could use the streets. Let's lobby for that instead. Keep them away from pedestrians who need to have safe walkways preserved.

I'm 100% in favor of micromobility lanes. The solution is not to ban scooters, it's to create safe micromobility infrastructure.

The vast, vast, vast majority of pedestrians who are injured or killed in traffic are injured by drivers of cars. To say "drivers largely stay in the space designated for cars" ignores the people injured or killed when drivers go out of that car space, as well as the people injured or killed when people have to go into that car space.

Yes, cars kill pedestrians. I hate cars. But 99.9% of drivers understand that pedestrians have right of way on sidewalks and in cross walks, and the vast majority of times, they observe that right of way.

Scooters don't. If you are on a scooter on a sidewalk and someone is walking slowly in front of you, you have zero right to ask that person to get out of your way, and you definitely don't have a right to expect that pedestrian to get out of your way without you even having to slow down. But people on scooters do this ALL THE TIME. Sidewalks are for pedestrians but scooters treat them like roads that people happen to walk in sometimes.

If you can't understand that this is an issue, even if it's not as big of an issue as cars, you aren't going to find a lot of allies among pedestrians. Cyclists tried this too -- there was a time when cyclists were trying to use the sidewalks as well, and laws got passed to prevent it because sidewalks are for pedestrians. Advocate for more multi-use bike/scooter lanes. But until they are there, don't expect pedestrians to welcome scooters onto the sidewalks.

Bicyclists can legally use the sidewalk in most places. I do advocate for more multi-use lanes. I also recognize that people using all modes of transportation can be jerks, including people using scooters and people using bicycles. However, objectively, there is only one mode of transportation that is consistently lethal when its users are jerks, and that's cars/trucks. Let's focus on that.

Most places? DC is the first city I've lived in that allows sidewalk cyclers. In every other city I've lived in, the sidewalks are full of people.

I don't drive, and we are currently living conveniently. For a variety of reasons we are thinking of moving a little further. I was thinking of scooters or bike (on sidewalk) as my best options. I'm a very respectful pedestrian and would be the same on scooter or bike. I think a scooter would take up less space on a shared sidewalk?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Paris is voting Sunday on whether to ban scooters. People are sick of them — they ride too fast, they go on the sidewalks, they leave their scooters everywhere. Copenhagen, Helsinki have imposed new restrictions. London wants to require people to get licenses. I would love it if DC banned them outright. They are a menace.

While we’re at it, let’s ban cars too. They are a menace that kill tens of thousands of the living population and are making the planet unlivable for everyone that comes after.

I was just in Manhattan for a week and walked everywhere. Not once did I fear for my life from a car, but the scooters and bikes in the bike lanes were a menace. No one obeyed the lights so stepping off the curb into the bike lane to cross the street was terrifying, and not only right after the light changed. My son narrowly missed getting hit very hard by a scooter, and I had two close calls with bikes that would have ended badly because they were going so fast. I would much rather walk amongst cars where the behavior of the drivers is more predictable and most follow the lights. It was the opposite for the bikes and scooters.

You and I must have been on the same roads. I was out in DC and MD yesterday and the number of cars running red lights was unbelievable. All over the area. These were not cars sneaking the tail of the yellow light. These were cars that drove around me at a dead read red light and flew through the intersection. Now back to scooter talk…


Cars are predictable because nearly everyone follows the law. Bikes and scooters are far more unpredictable because most seem to see traffic laws as something that’s for other people.

I don’t know where you live, but in my cross-DC commute today I saw rampant speeding, red light running, and rolling stops through stop signs. The notion that near all drivers follow the law is a sick joke.

[Anonymous]

You and I must have been on the same roads. I was out in DC and MD yesterday and the number of cars running red lights was unbelievable. All over the area. These were not cars sneaking the tail of the yellow light. These were cars that drove around me at a dead read red light and flew through the intersection. Now back to scooter talk…

[Anonymous]

If there’s bikes on the streets, that’s a pretty good indication the streets are safe.

[Anonymous]

Scooters can be annoying but where’s the hard data showing they’re dangerous and must be banned in DC?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Paris is voting Sunday on whether to ban scooters. People are sick of them — they ride too fast, they go on the sidewalks, they leave their scooters everywhere. Copenhagen, Helsinki have imposed new restrictions. London wants to require people to get licenses. I would love it if DC banned them outright. They are a menace.

While we’re at it, let’s ban cars too. They are a menace that kill tens of thousands of the living population and are making the planet unlivable for everyone that comes after.

I was just in Manhattan for a week and walked everywhere. Not once did I fear for my life from a car, but the scooters and bikes in the bike lanes were a menace. No one obeyed the lights so stepping off the curb into the bike lane to cross the street was terrifying, and not only right after the light changed. My son narrowly missed getting hit very hard by a scooter, and I had two close calls with bikes that would have ended badly because they were going so fast. I would much rather walk amongst cars where the behavior of the drivers is more predictable and most follow the lights. It was the opposite for the bikes and scooters.

Cool story, bro. But it’s better that hard data guides public policy and not your feelings. And there isn’t a lot of hard data that shows that scooters or cyclists come anywhere near to representing the threat that cars and other motor vehicles pose to the safety of the general public.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Paris is voting Sunday on whether to ban scooters. People are sick of them — they ride too fast, they go on the sidewalks, they leave their scooters everywhere. Copenhagen, Helsinki have imposed new restrictions. London wants to require people to get licenses. I would love it if DC banned them outright. They are a menace.

While we’re at it, let’s ban cars too. They are a menace that kill tens of thousands of the living population and are making the planet unlivable for everyone that comes after.

I was just in Manhattan for a week and walked everywhere. Not once did I fear for my life from a car, but the scooters and bikes in the bike lanes were a menace. No one obeyed the lights so stepping off the curb into the bike lane to cross the street was terrifying, and not only right after the light changed. My son narrowly missed getting hit very hard by a scooter, and I had two close calls with bikes that would have ended badly because they were going so fast. I would much rather walk amongst cars where the behavior of the drivers is more predictable and most follow the lights. It was the opposite for the bikes and scooters.

Cool story, bro. But it’s better that hard data guides public policy and not your feelings. And there isn’t a lot of hard data that shows that scooters or cyclists come anywhere near to representing the threat that cars and other motor vehicles pose to the safety of the general public.

It is hard to get that data since scooters came out around the time of the pandemic when there were less people walking about. However, just because you don't believe scooters aren't a menace doesn't mean that they aren't. I am constantly looking behind me because I've had many close calls. If it hits you than you will live but, could have lifelong injuries that could affect the rest of your life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Paris is voting Sunday on whether to ban scooters. People are sick of them — they ride too fast, they go on the sidewalks, they leave their scooters everywhere. Copenhagen, Helsinki have imposed new restrictions. London wants to require people to get licenses. I would love it if DC banned them outright. They are a menace.

While we’re at it, let’s ban cars too. They are a menace that kill tens of thousands of the living population and are making the planet unlivable for everyone that comes after.

I was just in Manhattan for a week and walked everywhere. Not once did I fear for my life from a car, but the scooters and bikes in the bike lanes were a menace. No one obeyed the lights so stepping off the curb into the bike lane to cross the street was terrifying, and not only right after the light changed. My son narrowly missed getting hit very hard by a scooter, and I had two close calls with bikes that would have ended badly because they were going so fast. I would much rather walk amongst cars where the behavior of the drivers is more predictable and most follow the lights. It was the opposite for the bikes and scooters.

Cool story, bro. But it’s better that hard data guides public policy and not your feelings. And there isn’t a lot of hard data that shows that scooters or cyclists come anywhere near to representing the threat that cars and other motor vehicles pose to the safety of the general public.

Data? There’s about 40 traffic deaths per year in DC out of *billions* of trips taken. And about a quarter of those are the pedestrian/cyclist/scooter person’s fault, according to the police. Another quarter are because the driver was drunk, which DC practically encourages with its traffic cameras. Another quarter are speeding drivers. The rest are medical emergencies, hit and runs, otherwise unknown.

[Anonymous]

How do traffic cameras encourage drunk driving?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ugh, PP, we get it -- cars are worse than scooters. Environmentally and in terms of harming people. Yes, I agree. But we live in a society that has designated a space for cars and the cars largely stay in that space.

Motorized scooters are a new addition and there's no safe place for them in the current infrastructure. They go too fast on sidewalks to be safe for pedestrians (and yes, people on scooters act entitled to have pedestrians move out of their way even though pedestrians are using the sidewalks as designed and shouldn't be expected to yield in that space). They are not fast enough for bike lanes, and of course it would not be safe for scooters to be in car lanes.

We went through this with bikes, too -- for a long time cyclists wanted to be able to use sidewalks because they didn't like being in the street with the cars (understandably). But pedestrians need a space that is just for them.

I'd support moves to ban cars from certain streets, increase taxes on cars and driving, and change the infrastructure focus away from cars and towards public transportation and alternative modes of transit. But none of that changes my opinion on scooters, which is that they are unsafe on sidewalks and endanger pedestrians.

Maybe if we created more carless streets, scooters could use the streets. Let's lobby for that instead. Keep them away from pedestrians who need to have safe walkways preserved.

I'm 100% in favor of micromobility lanes. The solution is not to ban scooters, it's to create safe micromobility infrastructure.

The vast, vast, vast majority of pedestrians who are injured or killed in traffic are injured by drivers of cars. To say "drivers largely stay in the space designated for cars" ignores the people injured or killed when drivers go out of that car space, as well as the people injured or killed when people have to go into that car space.

Yes, cars kill pedestrians. I hate cars. But 99.9% of drivers understand that pedestrians have right of way on sidewalks and in cross walks, and the vast majority of times, they observe that right of way.

Scooters don't. If you are on a scooter on a sidewalk and someone is walking slowly in front of you, you have zero right to ask that person to get out of your way, and you definitely don't have a right to expect that pedestrian to get out of your way without you even having to slow down. But people on scooters do this ALL THE TIME. Sidewalks are for pedestrians but scooters treat them like roads that people happen to walk in sometimes.

If you can't understand that this is an issue, even if it's not as big of an issue as cars, you aren't going to find a lot of allies among pedestrians. Cyclists tried this too -- there was a time when cyclists were trying to use the sidewalks as well, and laws got passed to prevent it because sidewalks are for pedestrians. Advocate for more multi-use bike/scooter lanes. But until they are there, don't expect pedestrians to welcome scooters onto the sidewalks.

Bicyclists can legally use the sidewalk in most places. I do advocate for more multi-use lanes. I also recognize that people using all modes of transportation can be jerks, including people using scooters and people using bicycles. However, objectively, there is only one mode of transportation that is consistently lethal when its users are jerks, and that's cars/trucks. Let's focus on that.

Most places? DC is the first city I've lived in that allows sidewalk cyclers. In every other city I've lived in, the sidewalks are full of people.

I don't drive, and we are currently living conveniently. For a variety of reasons we are thinking of moving a little further. I was thinking of scooters or bike (on sidewalk) as my best options. I'm a very respectful pedestrian and would be the same on scooter or bike. I think a scooter would take up less space on a shared sidewalk?

No. No motorized vehicles on sidewalks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Paris is voting Sunday on whether to ban scooters. People are sick of them — they ride too fast, they go on the sidewalks, they leave their scooters everywhere. Copenhagen, Helsinki have imposed new restrictions. London wants to require people to get licenses. I would love it if DC banned them outright. They are a menace.

While we’re at it, let’s ban cars too. They are a menace that kill tens of thousands of the living population and are making the planet unlivable for everyone that comes after.

I was just in Manhattan for a week and walked everywhere. Not once did I fear for my life from a car, but the scooters and bikes in the bike lanes were a menace. No one obeyed the lights so stepping off the curb into the bike lane to cross the street was terrifying, and not only right after the light changed. My son narrowly missed getting hit very hard by a scooter, and I had two close calls with bikes that would have ended badly because they were going so fast. I would much rather walk amongst cars where the behavior of the drivers is more predictable and most follow the lights. It was the opposite for the bikes and scooters.

Cool story, bro. But it’s better that hard data guides public policy and not your feelings. And there isn’t a lot of hard data that shows that scooters or cyclists come anywhere near to representing the threat that cars and other motor vehicles pose to the safety of the general public.

Hard data you say? Where is the hard data on the number of bicycles and scooters in active use? On a proportional basis I would not be surprised if bike/scooter accidents were higher than cars etc. Just using that previously cited hard data on accident fault and bicycles are the most dangerous of all proportionately.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Paris is voting Sunday on whether to ban scooters. People are sick of them — they ride too fast, they go on the sidewalks, they leave their scooters everywhere. Copenhagen, Helsinki have imposed new restrictions. London wants to require people to get licenses. I would love it if DC banned them outright. They are a menace.

While we’re at it, let’s ban cars too. They are a menace that kill tens of thousands of the living population and are making the planet unlivable for everyone that comes after.

I was just in Manhattan for a week and walked everywhere. Not once did I fear for my life from a car, but the scooters and bikes in the bike lanes were a menace. No one obeyed the lights so stepping off the curb into the bike lane to cross the street was terrifying, and not only right after the light changed. My son narrowly missed getting hit very hard by a scooter, and I had two close calls with bikes that would have ended badly because they were going so fast. I would much rather walk amongst cars where the behavior of the drivers is more predictable and most follow the lights. It was the opposite for the bikes and scooters.

Cool story, bro. But it’s better that hard data guides public policy and not your feelings. And there isn’t a lot of hard data that shows that scooters or cyclists come anywhere near to representing the threat that cars and other motor vehicles pose to the safety of the general public.

Hard data you say? Where is the hard data on the number of bicycles and scooters in active use? On a proportional basis I would not be surprised if bike/scooter accidents were higher than cars etc. Just using that previously cited hard data on accident fault and bicycles are the most dangerous of all proportionately.

Try a bit harder to understand the meaning of “safety of the general public”.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How do traffic cameras encourage drunk driving?

Cops don’t enforce traffic laws anymore. They’ve turned that over to traffic cameras. Cameras do nothing about impaired driving. People drinking and getting high know this.

[Anonymous]

The New York Times:

By Tom Nouvian
Reporting from Paris

April 3, 2023
Updated 12:50 p.m. ET
4 MIN READ
An overwhelming majority of Parisians who took part in a referendum on rental electric scooters have voted to ban the devices from the streets of the French capital, reflecting exhaustion with a public-transit alternative that was once seen as convenient and climate-friendly but is now largely regarded as dangerous and environmentally questionable.

[Anonymous]

Cyclists and people on scooters should be required to have liability insurance, just like motorists