Advanced Students in DCPS Upper Elementary

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you have a student who is working above grade level in a few areas, how does DCPS differentiate and accommodate their learning needs in upper elementary, if at all? For example, if a 3rd grader is currently doing 5th grade math, what would they do when they get to 4th and 5th grade? Would they be able to continue learning new math that is typically taught in middle school and how is this done - through small groups, pull outs, computer programs, or something else?

Giving our perspective after having been through this with a kid who is now in middle school (DCPS). Our school (Ward 3) did acknowledge that our child was far ahead (in math) and did their best to help. This was a kid who was probably ready for Algebra in 4th or 5th and qualified for the USAMO this year. But given restricted budgets, logistics and personnel, what they could actually do was limited -- a few worksheets, being the teacher's helper, a few pullouts where a computer was provided etc. Middle school has been much better, if only for the range of available options. However, while this may be different for every child, it was enough for ours, who is thriving in middle school.

Woah, qualifying for the USAMO in middle school is ridiculously impressive... Have they changed the qualifying so that there's a way other than the AHSME/AIME? Not that it's not super impressive in any case, but my info is like 25 years out of date and back then there was a AHSME that you took to qualify for the AIME which then picked qualifiers for the USAMO... And back then there were like maybe 1 or 2 10th graders who qualified occasionally, so a middle schooler would have been like off-the-charts insane. I'm wondering if they've changed the system so that kids get in the pipeline sooner (which would totally make sense, actually)?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you have a student who is working above grade level in a few areas, how does DCPS differentiate and accommodate their learning needs in upper elementary, if at all? For example, if a 3rd grader is currently doing 5th grade math, what would they do when they get to 4th and 5th grade? Would they be able to continue learning new math that is typically taught in middle school and how is this done - through small groups, pull outs, computer programs, or something else?

Giving our perspective after having been through this with a kid who is now in middle school (DCPS). Our school (Ward 3) did acknowledge that our child was far ahead (in math) and did their best to help. This was a kid who was probably ready for Algebra in 4th or 5th and qualified for the USAMO this year. But given restricted budgets, logistics and personnel, what they could actually do was limited -- a few worksheets, being the teacher's helper, a few pullouts where a computer was provided etc. Middle school has been much better, if only for the range of available options. However, while this may be different for every child, it was enough for ours, who is thriving in middle school.

Woah, qualifying for the USAMO in middle school is ridiculously impressive... Have they changed the qualifying so that there's a way other than the AHSME/AIME? Not that it's not super impressive in any case, but my info is like 25 years out of date and back then there was a AHSME that you took to qualify for the AIME which then picked qualifiers for the USAMO... And back then there were like maybe 1 or 2 10th graders who qualified occasionally, so a middle schooler would have been like off-the-charts insane. I'm wondering if they've changed the system so that kids get in the pipeline sooner (which would totally make sense, actually)?

No, no other way -- just AMC-12 (the new version of AHSME) followed by AIME. The number of middle schoolers who qualified is more than a handful. MAA did institute the USAJMO, which has a lot more middle schoolers qualify by taking the AMC-10/AIME. Still the total number is 500 odd kids across both the USAMO and USAJMO.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you have a student who is working above grade level in a few areas, how does DCPS differentiate and accommodate their learning needs in upper elementary, if at all? For example, if a 3rd grader is currently doing 5th grade math, what would they do when they get to 4th and 5th grade? Would they be able to continue learning new math that is typically taught in middle school and how is this done - through small groups, pull outs, computer programs, or something else?

Giving our perspective after having been through this with a kid who is now in middle school (DCPS). Our school (Ward 3) did acknowledge that our child was far ahead (in math) and did their best to help. This was a kid who was probably ready for Algebra in 4th or 5th and qualified for the USAMO this year. But given restricted budgets, logistics and personnel, what they could actually do was limited -- a few worksheets, being the teacher's helper, a few pullouts where a computer was provided etc. Middle school has been much better, if only for the range of available options. However, while this may be different for every child, it was enough for ours, who is thriving in middle school.

Woah, qualifying for the USAMO in middle school is ridiculously impressive... Have they changed the qualifying so that there's a way other than the AHSME/AIME? Not that it's not super impressive in any case, but my info is like 25 years out of date and back then there was a AHSME that you took to qualify for the AIME which then picked qualifiers for the USAMO... And back then there were like maybe 1 or 2 10th graders who qualified occasionally, so a middle schooler would have been like off-the-charts insane. I'm wondering if they've changed the system so that kids get in the pipeline sooner (which would totally make sense, actually)?

No, no other way -- just AMC-12 (the new version of AHSME) followed by AIME. The number of middle schoolers who qualified is more than a handful. MAA did institute the USAJMO, which has a lot more middle schoolers qualify by taking the AMC-10/AIME. Still the total number is 500 odd kids across both the USAMO and USAJMO.

Thanks. I actually just looked it up and it does seem like they've expanded USAMO qualifying a bit in the sense that there used to be ~175 qualifiers and now there seem to be ~250, but I wonder if that's partially just an access thing via AoPS and other online programs rather than anything intentional/any decrease in standard. I also looked up the results from my senior year and it's like 7 middle schoolers, which is way more than I would have guessed... but still crazily impressive. (There was also only one single DC qualifier that year, so even more impressive.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the level of shock and disbelief in this thread is showing is that it’s impossible to generalize, and one family’s experience at one school could be vastly different than another school. It also highlights the importance of really prioritizing and digging hard into the priorities, systems and structures, and leadership at the individual school level. It’s REALLY hard to know what questions to ask when you’re at the pre-K level, but the good news is DC has a lottery and often seats open up in elementary grades.

+1

This thread is making me happy that we're just going with our neighborhood school for PK-3 rather than figuring out what school he'll need later. I don't know what to look for yet!

Oh, 100%. Plus, not only will what your kid needs change, but the schools may change too, in between now and then.

Yes, development can be uneven. My 3rd grader was a late reader, but is now reading above grade level. Similarly, was barely at grade level in math for the last couple of years, but is now leaping ahead. Some of this was pandemic related, but there was no indication in pre-K and K that they'd be working above grade level.

Right. Unless you have actual IQ testing that shows your child in the highly gifted range, it’s NBD if they are within a year or two either way of “grade level.” They don’t need special instruction.

In a class in which most kids are not at grade level, a first grader reading at a 3rd or 4th grade level - who may not be 'highly gifted' - can still be 3-4 years ahead of most of their classmates. Hard to teach that range.

This is a classic debate. IMO with a kid that is multiple grade levels ahead in READING, I don’t think she actually needs instruction in reading itself anymore. But ELA is the mechanics of reading, comprehension and analysis, writing, sentence composition, etc. Unless your kid is multiple grade levels ahead in all of that subject matter, then they still have more to learn. And that kid who may be terrible at decoding may be great at higher level analysis (or math, etc). That’s why you need strong teachers and small class sizes. It is hard to teach and you just can’t expect perfection in early elementary ANYWHERE.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DCPS follow the school-wide enrichment model, so something like tracking into a different class is not officially allowed. This is something I would expect a student’s teacher to be able to accommodate through small group instruction. DCPS is shifting to a big push for a focus on math, so math instruction will likely look different in the coming years.

It may be that different schools accommodate differently, but at my kid's school there are definitely some kids who get special pullouts for advanced study and even some who attend classes with a different grade level. My kid is in K at LT. The large majority of instruction is group-based for both math and ELA and there is a huge gulf between what the top group is doing and the bottom group. But, on top of that, I know that sometimes kids in the top reading group get pulled by the school's reading coach for instruction outside the classroom. Then there is also one student who goes to 2nd grade for math.

Thanks for naming the school. I don’t understand why no one else will; most posts contain almost no personally identifiable info. Anyway, good to know LT seems to offer at least some true differentiation. How did the K kid who goes to second get picked for that?

The way it works at our school is they do the beginning of the year diagnostic testing (iReady or MAP or whatever). Then they try to form groups within the class. Ideally you'd have a group within the classroom, even if it's a very small group, and avoid having to do a room transition-- I've never understood why people are so thrilled that their child wastes time walking down the hall. If you don't, they look for kids at a similar level in the next year up, and the year after that. Of course, this all has to work around class schedules too-- so you're looking for a class that has well-matched kids and also has the subject at the same time of day. My DD was able to do this in PK4 only because she was a non-napper, she literally took zero naps ever since starting PK3, so she was able to go to the K room for math during nap block.

A lot of little kids have high reading fluency, but their comprehension and ability to respond in writing isn't that great, so they would have a hard time in a higher group, and it could be hard socially and they won't be able to meet the attention span and behavioral expectations. So again, the ideal thing is to be with kids of similar age AND similar ability so that the placement will be socially and developmentally appropriate as well as academically beneficial.

This is exactly right. A lot of smart kindergarten to second graders are way ahead on reading, but almost none are equally ahead on writing. Unless your first grader can respond to questions in correctly written multi-sentence paragraphs, then they should be doing grade level work. It’s public school, some content will be easier than other, but most kids still have learning to do. I would focus on having the teacher work on that with your child, not assume that their classroom isn’t the correct place to be.

The teacher cannot work on that with my kid because she is focused on teaching kids who cannot read to sound out words. There are more of them, and it is a much higher priority. I would love for the teacher to be doing that.

Our Title 1 has either two teachers or a teacher and full time aide per grade, plus they bring in the subject matter learning specialists for above and below grade small groups. Never have had more than 18 kids per class. Perhaps you need to find a school with a different administration that focuses on different priorities.

What school?? We are also at a title one and there are not two teachers in each classroom and the class sizes are huge. How could the funding be so disparate?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the level of shock and disbelief in this thread is showing is that it’s impossible to generalize, and one family’s experience at one school could be vastly different than another school. It also highlights the importance of really prioritizing and digging hard into the priorities, systems and structures, and leadership at the individual school level. It’s REALLY hard to know what questions to ask when you’re at the pre-K level, but the good news is DC has a lottery and often seats open up in elementary grades.

+1

This thread is making me happy that we're just going with our neighborhood school for PK-3 rather than figuring out what school he'll need later. I don't know what to look for yet!

Oh, 100%. Plus, not only will what your kid needs change, but the schools may change too, in between now and then.

Yes, development can be uneven. My 3rd grader was a late reader, but is now reading above grade level. Similarly, was barely at grade level in math for the last couple of years, but is now leaping ahead. Some of this was pandemic related, but there was no indication in pre-K and K that they'd be working above grade level.

Right. Unless you have actual IQ testing that shows your child in the highly gifted range, it’s NBD if they are within a year or two either way of “grade level.” They don’t need special instruction.

In a class in which most kids are not at grade level, a first grader reading at a 3rd or 4th grade level - who may not be 'highly gifted' - can still be 3-4 years ahead of most of their classmates. Hard to teach that range.

This is a classic debate. IMO with a kid that is multiple grade levels ahead in READING, I don’t think she actually needs instruction in reading itself anymore. But ELA is the mechanics of reading, comprehension and analysis, writing, sentence composition, etc. Unless your kid is multiple grade levels ahead in all of that subject matter, then they still have more to learn. And that kid who may be terrible at decoding may be great at higher level analysis (or math, etc). That’s why you need strong teachers and small class sizes. It is hard to teach and you just can’t expect perfection in early elementary ANYWHERE.

I don't have anything against strong teachers and small classes, but even with those, it's asking a whole lot for teachers to be providing the kind of instruction you're describing when most of the kids in the class can't read. My kid has tons to learn, but I'm accepting that I'm going to have to figure out how to make that happen myself. I thought this would only be an issue if my kids were genuinely extremely gifted, and that's just not been how this plays out for us. And the other UMC kids are supplementing as well.