Columbus Day

[Anonymous]

Here is another primary source from a letter written by a man who participated in his second voyage, Michele De Cuneo: "While I was in the boat, I captured a very beautiful woman, whom the Lord Admiral [Columbus] gave to me. When I had taken her to my cabin she was naked — as was their custom. I was filled with a desire to take my pleasure with her and attempted to satisfy my desire. She was unwilling, and so treated me with her nails that I wished I had never begun. I then took a piece of rope and whipped her soundly, and she let forth such incredible screams that you would not have believed your ears. Eventually we came to such terms, I assure you, that you would have thought she had been brought up in a school for whores."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I celebrate both, you can acknowledge both.

How?

You can celebrate Hitler and the Jews?

Leave Hitler and Jews out of this. They are not comparable.

NP. I don’t think comparing tragedies is a winning approach. That said, genocide is genocide. Crazy, evil men get government backing and lots of followers, then use the power they’ve accumulated to spread hatred and death and their actions nearly wipe out entire groups of people. Columbus was a bad guy. He condoned brutality I couldn’t even dream of. Let’s not diminish the atrocities he’s responsible for.

What did Columbus do? I know he didn't actually "discover" America if that's the way you wan to see it, but what atrocities took place at that time, that Columbus condoned?

Didn't just condone, directed. Look up the Lucayan in the Bahamas. They were inconvenient to him so he wiped them out.

Why are Americans responsible for that? We're talking about America. He really didn't spend any time here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I celebrate both, you can acknowledge both.

How?

You can celebrate Hitler and the Jews?

Leave Hitler and Jews out of this. They are not comparable.

NP. I don’t think comparing tragedies is a winning approach. That said, genocide is genocide. Crazy, evil men get government backing and lots of followers, then use the power they’ve accumulated to spread hatred and death and their actions nearly wipe out entire groups of people. Columbus was a bad guy. He condoned brutality I couldn’t even dream of. Let’s not diminish the atrocities he’s responsible for.

What did Columbus do? I know he didn't actually "discover" America if that's the way you wan to see it, but what atrocities took place at that time, that Columbus condoned?

Enslavement, murder, rape, theft, dismemberment… the list is long. When his crew couldn’t find enough gold to steal, they issued a quota for indigenous people to fill. If they didn’t bring him enough gold, they’d cut off their hands. When Columbus gave up on gold he captured a bunch as slaves to take back to Europe to sell. Many didn’t survive the voyage. And the rape. So much rape of women and children. Sex slaves, random rapes, whatever the white men wanted.

This happened here?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You can use primary sources to decide for yourself whether Columbus deserves to be honored. This entry appears in his own log: ""A hundred castellanoes are as easily obtained for a woman as for a farm, and it is very general and there are plenty of dealers who go about looking for girls; those from nine to ten are now in demand."

We're not honoring him. We're honoring the fact that he discovered America. (And yes, I know there were already people here -- he discovered it and the people here, too, from his point of view.) We celebrate the first steps toward the creation of our country, not the man himself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You can use primary sources to decide for yourself whether Columbus deserves to be honored. This entry appears in his own log: ""A hundred castellanoes are as easily obtained for a woman as for a farm, and it is very general and there are plenty of dealers who go about looking for girls; those from nine to ten are now in demand."

We're not honoring him. We're honoring the fact that he discovered America. (And yes, I know there were already people here -- he discovered it and the people here, too, from his point of view.) We celebrate the first steps toward the creation of our country, not the man himself.

I appreciate your overall comment, though I'd just say perhaps a better way to frame Columbus's significance is it's when the Old World met the New World in a way that "stuck." Yes, I get that if it hadn't been him, it would have been someone else, but his voyage represent what is perhaps one of the most significant events in human history, for better and for worse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My grandparents were Italian immigrants in the early 1900s. So for them, Columbus Day was always important given the history of the events preceding the holiday.
However, in our small nuclear family we think of this day as immigrants day in Lou of Columbus Day in addition to indigenous peoples day. So perhaps a melting pot day.

+1. It always blows my mind that people don’t know why “Columbus Day” became a thing, or why people whose last names end in vowels might be a little salty that it’s been taken away.

It blows your mind? Columbus Day is a really f**king obscure way to celebrate Italian Americans. A son of Genoa with an Anglicized name sailing for Spain because Portugal wouldn't have him? A holiday named after a specific person focused on a singular event that had basically nothing to do with Italy? Can't imagine why people might miss that detail. Mind blowing, really.

Thank you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I celebrate both, you can acknowledge both.

How?

You can celebrate Hitler and the Jews?

Leave Hitler and Jews out of this. They are not comparable.

NP. I don’t think comparing tragedies is a winning approach. That said, genocide is genocide. Crazy, evil men get government backing and lots of followers, then use the power they’ve accumulated to spread hatred and death and their actions nearly wipe out entire groups of people. Columbus was a bad guy. He condoned brutality I couldn’t even dream of. Let’s not diminish the atrocities he’s responsible for.

What did Columbus do? I know he didn't actually "discover" America if that's the way you wan to see it, but what atrocities took place at that time, that Columbus condoned?

Enslavement, murder, rape, theft, dismemberment… the list is long. When his crew couldn’t find enough gold to steal, they issued a quota for indigenous people to fill. If they didn’t bring him enough gold, they’d cut off their hands. When Columbus gave up on gold he captured a bunch as slaves to take back to Europe to sell. Many didn’t survive the voyage. And the rape. So much rape of women and children. Sex slaves, random rapes, whatever the white men wanted.

This happened here?

Where have you been?!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You can use primary sources to decide for yourself whether Columbus deserves to be honored. This entry appears in his own log: ""A hundred castellanoes are as easily obtained for a woman as for a farm, and it is very general and there are plenty of dealers who go about looking for girls; those from nine to ten are now in demand."

We're not honoring him. We're honoring the fact that he discovered America. (And yes, I know there were already people here -- he discovered it and the people here, too, from his point of view.) We celebrate the first steps toward the creation of our country, not the man himself.

I appreciate your overall comment, though I'd just say perhaps a better way to frame Columbus's significance is it's when the Old World met the New World in a way that "stuck." Yes, I get that if it hadn't been him, it would have been someone else, but his voyage represent what is perhaps one of the most significant events in human history, for better and for worse.

That’s not what the day is about.

The holiday was founded because Italian Americans were rightfully upset about what happened in New Orleans and elsewhere.

So they picked…Columbus.

And now most people know he was an azzhole.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I celebrate both, you can acknowledge both.

How?

You can celebrate Hitler and the Jews?

Leave Hitler and Jews out of this. They are not comparable.

NP. I don’t think comparing tragedies is a winning approach. That said, genocide is genocide. Crazy, evil men get government backing and lots of followers, then use the power they’ve accumulated to spread hatred and death and their actions nearly wipe out entire groups of people. Columbus was a bad guy. He condoned brutality I couldn’t even dream of. Let’s not diminish the atrocities he’s responsible for.

What did Columbus do? I know he didn't actually "discover" America if that's the way you wan to see it, but what atrocities took place at that time, that Columbus condoned?

Didn't just condone, directed. Look up the Lucayan in the Bahamas. They were inconvenient to him so he wiped them out.

Why are Americans responsible for that? We're talking about America. He really didn't spend any time here.

Then why the holiday?!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I celebrate both, you can acknowledge both.

How?

You can celebrate Hitler and the Jews?

Leave Hitler and Jews out of this. They are not comparable.

NP. I don’t think comparing tragedies is a winning approach. That said, genocide is genocide. Crazy, evil men get government backing and lots of followers, then use the power they’ve accumulated to spread hatred and death and their actions nearly wipe out entire groups of people. Columbus was a bad guy. He condoned brutality I couldn’t even dream of. Let’s not diminish the atrocities he’s responsible for.

What did Columbus do? I know he didn't actually "discover" America if that's the way you wan to see it, but what atrocities took place at that time, that Columbus condoned?

Enslavement, murder, rape, theft, dismemberment… the list is long. When his crew couldn’t find enough gold to steal, they issued a quota for indigenous people to fill. If they didn’t bring him enough gold, they’d cut off their hands. When Columbus gave up on gold he captured a bunch as slaves to take back to Europe to sell. Many didn’t survive the voyage. And the rape. So much rape of women and children. Sex slaves, random rapes, whatever the white men wanted.

This happened here?

Here? In the US? No, because Columbus never actually came here. Another reason it’s odd that he gets a holiday here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You can use primary sources to decide for yourself whether Columbus deserves to be honored. This entry appears in his own log: ""A hundred castellanoes are as easily obtained for a woman as for a farm, and it is very general and there are plenty of dealers who go about looking for girls; those from nine to ten are now in demand."

We're not honoring him. We're honoring the fact that he discovered America. (And yes, I know there were already people here -- he discovered it and the people here, too, from his point of view.) We celebrate the first steps toward the creation of our country, not the man himself.

I appreciate your overall comment, though I'd just say perhaps a better way to frame Columbus's significance is it's when the Old World met the New World in a way that "stuck." Yes, I get that if it hadn't been him, it would have been someone else, but his voyage represent what is perhaps one of the most significant events in human history, for better and for worse.

The Vikings preceded him by centuries.

They were even the first ones to name North America: Vineland.

Columbus Day should really be Viking day to honor the Vikings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You can use primary sources to decide for yourself whether Columbus deserves to be honored. This entry appears in his own log: ""A hundred castellanoes are as easily obtained for a woman as for a farm, and it is very general and there are plenty of dealers who go about looking for girls; those from nine to ten are now in demand."

We're not honoring him. We're honoring the fact that he discovered America. (And yes, I know there were already people here -- he discovered it and the people here, too, from his point of view.) We celebrate the first steps toward the creation of our country, not the man himself.

I appreciate your overall comment, though I'd just say perhaps a better way to frame Columbus's significance is it's when the Old World met the New World in a way that "stuck." Yes, I get that if it hadn't been him, it would have been someone else, but his voyage represent what is perhaps one of the most significant events in human history, for better and for worse.

The Vikings preceded him by centuries.

They were even the first ones to name North America: Vineland.

Columbus Day should really be Viking day to honor the Vikings.

They did, and that's why I mentioned Columbus being the first explorer that "stuck." In other words, the first of many Europeans to venture over in a relatively short time period.
Perhaps it was unclear in the way I worded it, but I hope that helps explain my intent better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I celebrate both, you can acknowledge both.

How?

You can celebrate Hitler and the Jews?

Leave Hitler and Jews out of this. They are not comparable.

NP. I don’t think comparing tragedies is a winning approach. That said, genocide is genocide. Crazy, evil men get government backing and lots of followers, then use the power they’ve accumulated to spread hatred and death and their actions nearly wipe out entire groups of people. Columbus was a bad guy. He condoned brutality I couldn’t even dream of. Let’s not diminish the atrocities he’s responsible for.

What did Columbus do? I know he didn't actually "discover" America if that's the way you wan to see it, but what atrocities took place at that time, that Columbus condoned?

Didn't just condone, directed. Look up the Lucayan in the Bahamas. They were inconvenient to him so he wiped them out.

Why are Americans responsible for that? We're talking about America. He really didn't spend any time here.

It's the guy you're trying to celebrate. I don't care where he did it, he's awful and should be shamed not celebrated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I celebrate both, you can acknowledge both.

How?

You can celebrate Hitler and the Jews?

Leave Hitler and Jews out of this. They are not comparable.

NP. I don’t think comparing tragedies is a winning approach. That said, genocide is genocide. Crazy, evil men get government backing and lots of followers, then use the power they’ve accumulated to spread hatred and death and their actions nearly wipe out entire groups of people. Columbus was a bad guy. He condoned brutality I couldn’t even dream of. Let’s not diminish the atrocities he’s responsible for.

What did Columbus do? I know he didn't actually "discover" America if that's the way you wan to see it, but what atrocities took place at that time, that Columbus condoned?

Didn't just condone, directed. Look up the Lucayan in the Bahamas. They were inconvenient to him so he wiped them out.

Why are Americans responsible for that? We're talking about America. He really didn't spend any time here.

It's the guy you're trying to celebrate. I don't care where he did it, he's awful and should be shamed not celebrated.

But why not celebrate Columbus Day in order to celebrate the wonderful country the US has become?

Look at the liberty and freedom we cherish today?

No country’s history is perfect or spotless, but today we are far better than any other county. That is cause to celebrate. And it wouldn’t have happened without Columbus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Acknowledge" is a weird word to use in this question?

I acknowledge that both are holidays. Columbus Day seems kind of stupid in light of what we know about his "discovery," that he wasn't even the first European to bump into North America, and that he was a worse-than-average human even considering the standards of his time.

But, all of that said, the holiday doesn't provoke strong emotions in me. Yes, European contact was horrible for indigenous peoples. But that was inevitable. Whatever mistreatment was inflicted by the Europeans, the impact of disease was always going to be several orders of magnitude more destructive than anything the Europeans could inflict intentionally.

I'm more sympathetic toward the sentiments behind Indigenous People's Day, but it feels artificial and contrived. It's not its own thing but is rather a reaction to Columbus Day; so there is still a European frame about the whole thing.

Agree with this whole post.

Columbus Day is also a contrived holiday basically invented as a reaction to discrimination against Italian Americans:

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/10/14/232120128/how-columbus-sailed-into-u-s-history-thanks-to-italians

But I think the point that discovery and settlement of North America was inevitable is a good one. We don't vilify all the other explorers.