Open enrollment for Math 7 Honors

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parent here, so a different perspective... In my experience, kids who were in AAP or otherwise advanced in math in ES typically take Honors Algebra in 7th, not Math 7 Honors. Our MS has already moved to an Honors for all strategy so all 7th graders not enrolled in Algebra or a remedial course take Math 7 Honors. Based on what you've stated about your child, I assume they would be fine.

AAP teacher here.

The above is absolutely incorrect. Approximately 20%-50% of my students, depending on the year, take Algebra HN in 7th grade. The others take Math 7 HN.

Different AAP teacher here. Agree. It also varies year to year. Some years more test in than others. Honestly, if the IAAT wasn’t 10 mins per section, you would see more students qualifying. I hate the Iowa because kids think they are dumb if they can’t work as fast, which is completely false.

That's a very feel-good statement but processing speed has always been considered a major component of intelligence. It is a big contributor to IQ scores. In addition, even in practice (like in a work environment), people who very quickly solve a problem or pick up new information and are able to quickly form a judgment about it are considered by others to be more intelligent. Therefore, if a student cannot solve math problems quickly, they are in fact less intelligent.

Neuropsychologist here - PP, I really hope you are joking. In fact, iis not unusual for gifted students to have slow processing speed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parent here, so a different perspective... In my experience, kids who were in AAP or otherwise advanced in math in ES typically take Honors Algebra in 7th, not Math 7 Honors. Our MS has already moved to an Honors for all strategy so all 7th graders not enrolled in Algebra or a remedial course take Math 7 Honors. Based on what you've stated about your child, I assume they would be fine.

AAP teacher here.

The above is absolutely incorrect. Approximately 20%-50% of my students, depending on the year, take Algebra HN in 7th grade. The others take Math 7 HN.

Different AAP teacher here. Agree. It also varies year to year. Some years more test in than others. Honestly, if the IAAT wasn’t 10 mins per section, you would see more students qualifying. I hate the Iowa because kids think they are dumb if they can’t work as fast, which is completely false.

That's a very feel-good statement but processing speed has always been considered a major component of intelligence. It is a big contributor to IQ scores. In addition, even in practice (like in a work environment), people who very quickly solve a problem or pick up new information and are able to quickly form a judgment about it are considered by others to be more intelligent. Therefore, if a student cannot solve math problems quickly, they are in fact less intelligent.

Parents do not want to hear the above but it is completely true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parent here, so a different perspective... In my experience, kids who were in AAP or otherwise advanced in math in ES typically take Honors Algebra in 7th, not Math 7 Honors. Our MS has already moved to an Honors for all strategy so all 7th graders not enrolled in Algebra or a remedial course take Math 7 Honors. Based on what you've stated about your child, I assume they would be fine.

AAP teacher here.

The above is absolutely incorrect. Approximately 20%-50% of my students, depending on the year, take Algebra HN in 7th grade. The others take Math 7 HN.

Different AAP teacher here. Agree. It also varies year to year. Some years more test in than others. Honestly, if the IAAT wasn’t 10 mins per section, you would see more students qualifying. I hate the Iowa because kids think they are dumb if they can’t work as fast, which is completely false.

That's a very feel-good statement but processing speed has always been considered a major component of intelligence. It is a big contributor to IQ scores. In addition, even in practice (like in a work environment), people who very quickly solve a problem or pick up new information and are able to quickly form a judgment about it are considered by others to be more intelligent. Therefore, if a student cannot solve math problems quickly, they are in fact less intelligent.

Neuropsychologist here - PP, I really hope you are joking. In fact, iis not unusual for gifted students to have slow processing speed.

Correct. My son is like this, extremely high IQ but somewhat slower processing speed. He didn’t get 90 percentile on the IOWA, but he did pass advance the 7th grade math SOL. He’s in math 7 HN this year as a result. I was torn about it. On the one hand, I know he could handle Algebra, plus his food friends are taking it, but on the other hand he will get a really solid foundation now. I kind of want an easy year. I think there were some gaps from Covid. Looking at the first unit so far, it looks super easy. It’s all review for him.

[Anonymous]

I would guess that the Algebra Honors in 7th grade will be down for the next few years because of COVID gaps. I know the math we heard my child doing in third grade was ridiculously easy and slow. We enrolled him in AoPS as soon as we realized how problematic the math instruction was going to be that year. It is going to take more then a year to really get kids back on grade level, no matter what FCPS wants to tell people.

I have not looked at the SOL scores for last year for the County. I know my sons school saw an improvement over the 20-21 school year but was not at the pre-COVID levels yet.

I am told that very few kids from our ES end up taking Algebra Honors. We don’t have LLIV for my kids grade but they do have Advanced Math. I think it is not a priority for a lot of parents and that most are fine with their child taking Algebra in 8th grade.

[Anonymous]

I taught M7H for years and years. Each year my class was around 75% kids who had taken advanced math in elementary school and didn't make the cutoff for algebra (or opted out). The other 25% of kids were coming from M6, skipping M7, and going to M7H (WHICH IS M8, not a more advanced version of m7!)

Of those that skip M7, majority of them struggled. The ones who did alright had M6 SOL scores 460+. Below that was nearly a sure sign the kid was going to try to drop to M7 after 1st quarter, when the courses have diverged so much it's very challenging to shift. Those with 460-500 needed a little extra support but caught on well enough. Those with 500+ on M6 SOLs were fine.

Math 7 introduces a lot of concepts for the first time that are only seen for a day in M7H and then expected to be fluent. Things like slope of a line (in M7H I spent one day on it graphically, one day on it from 2 points, and one day on the slope intercept form of the equation). In math 7, that's a whole unit. Math 7 spends 2-3 weeks solving multistep equations with the distributive property and fractions and negative coefficients. M7H spends 2 days reviewing it, and then it's on to variables on both sides. Etc, etc, etc.

Taught well, the M7H class is essentially 1st semester algebra stretched out over 3/4 of the year with extra challenges thrown in. Math 7 is algebra foundations. Both are appropriate stepping stones to take algebra the following year if desired (though M7H generally leads to algebra honors and M7 to algebra)

[Anonymous]

My kid with ADHD and slow processing speed was able to earn a 98th percentile score on the IAAT with no accommodations. Low processing speed isn't holding kids back. Being methodical isn't holding kids back. They're failing to meet the IAAT benchmark because they're not solid on pre-algebra.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid with ADHD and slow processing speed was able to earn a 98th percentile score on the IAAT with no accommodations. Low processing speed isn't holding kids back. Being methodical isn't holding kids back. They're failing to meet the IAAT benchmark because they're not solid on pre-algebra.

Did your child take any outside math courses over the years?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parent here, so a different perspective... In my experience, kids who were in AAP or otherwise advanced in math in ES typically take Honors Algebra in 7th, not Math 7 Honors. Our MS has already moved to an Honors for all strategy so all 7th graders not enrolled in Algebra or a remedial course take Math 7 Honors. Based on what you've stated about your child, I assume they would be fine.

AAP teacher here.

The above is absolutely incorrect. Approximately 20%-50% of my students, depending on the year, take Algebra HN in 7th grade. The others take Math 7 HN.

Different AAP teacher here. Agree. It also varies year to year. Some years more test in than others. Honestly, if the IAAT wasn’t 10 mins per section, you would see more students qualifying. I hate the Iowa because kids think they are dumb if they can’t work as fast, which is completely false.

That's a very feel-good statement but processing speed has always been considered a major component of intelligence. It is a big contributor to IQ scores. In addition, even in practice (like in a work environment), people who very quickly solve a problem or pick up new information and are able to quickly form a judgment about it are considered by others to be more intelligent. Therefore, if a student cannot solve math problems quickly, they are in fact less intelligent.

Parents do not want to hear the above but it is completely true.

And yet neuropsychologists and psychometricians disagree too!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid with ADHD and slow processing speed was able to earn a 98th percentile score on the IAAT with no accommodations. Low processing speed isn't holding kids back. Being methodical isn't holding kids back. They're failing to meet the IAAT benchmark because they're not solid on pre-algebra.

I think it has little to do with processing speed but rather math fluency.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid with ADHD and slow processing speed was able to earn a 98th percentile score on the IAAT with no accommodations. Low processing speed isn't holding kids back. Being methodical isn't holding kids back. They're failing to meet the IAAT benchmark because they're not solid on pre-algebra.

I think it has little to do with processing speed but rather math fluency.

I think some of it has to do with how well the teachers are explaining the test. If they don't tell the kids that it is heavily timed, they need to work fast, they should not check any answers until the very end, and at the end, they should guess on any unfinished problems, then the teacher is not helping able kids pass the IAAT.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parent here, so a different perspective... In my experience, kids who were in AAP or otherwise advanced in math in ES typically take Honors Algebra in 7th, not Math 7 Honors. Our MS has already moved to an Honors for all strategy so all 7th graders not enrolled in Algebra or a remedial course take Math 7 Honors. Based on what you've stated about your child, I assume they would be fine.

AAP teacher here.

The above is absolutely incorrect. Approximately 20%-50% of my students, depending on the year, take Algebra HN in 7th grade. The others take Math 7 HN.

Different AAP teacher here. Agree. It also varies year to year. Some years more test in than others. Honestly, if the IAAT wasn’t 10 mins per section, you would see more students qualifying. I hate the Iowa because kids think they are dumb if they can’t work as fast, which is completely false.

That's a very feel-good statement but processing speed has always been considered a major component of intelligence. It is a big contributor to IQ scores. In addition, even in practice (like in a work environment), people who very quickly solve a problem or pick up new information and are able to quickly form a judgment about it are considered by others to be more intelligent. Therefore, if a student cannot solve math problems quickly, they are in fact less intelligent.

Parents do not want to hear the above but it is completely true.

And yet neuropsychologists and psychometricians disagree too!

That is funny. Apples to oranges.

[Anonymous]

Hi, OP. What you should consider is this: you want your child to have a good foundation for math before moving on to more difficult math classes. If your child takes a class they aren’t quite ready for, then that foundation won’t be as strong. There is nothing wrong with taking regular math. All my kids started off in basic math in school, and all quickly moved up once they gained that foundation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parent here, so a different perspective... In my experience, kids who were in AAP or otherwise advanced in math in ES typically take Honors Algebra in 7th, not Math 7 Honors. Our MS has already moved to an Honors for all strategy so all 7th graders not enrolled in Algebra or a remedial course take Math 7 Honors. Based on what you've stated about your child, I assume they would be fine.

AAP teacher here.

The above is absolutely incorrect. Approximately 20%-50% of my students, depending on the year, take Algebra HN in 7th grade. The others take Math 7 HN.

Different AAP teacher here. Agree. It also varies year to year. Some years more test in than others. Honestly, if the IAAT wasn’t 10 mins per section, you would see more students qualifying. I hate the Iowa because kids think they are dumb if they can’t work as fast, which is completely false.

That's a very feel-good statement but processing speed has always been considered a major component of intelligence. It is a big contributor to IQ scores. In addition, even in practice (like in a work environment), people who very quickly solve a problem or pick up new information and are able to quickly form a judgment about it are considered by others to be more intelligent. Therefore, if a student cannot solve math problems quickly, they are in fact less intelligent.

This statement is completely false. Speed is an artificial construct of the standard k-12 curriculum and standardized testing, that's it. It has nothing to do with problem solving abilities and should never be used to assess intelligence. In particular, speed becomes almost meaningless at higher levels where problems are difficult enough to demand insight and ingenuity. Nobody in college, in jobs or academia, or at the IMO olympiad is complaining that they cannot do well because they are too slow. There many other contributing factors but speed is not going to be one of them. It's quite a terrible thing to test children on something as trivial as speed and then suggest that they are not smart enough because they needed a few more minutes because they were not rushing through something. We wouldn't expect our engineers, scientists, and doctors to rush through things and we certainly wouldn't want to deal with the consequences of a rushed solution, so why don't we give children enough time to think?

It's not about whether the kid is smart enough or not. It's about having sufficient fluency to handle the multistep algebra problems. I worked with some AAP students, and surprisingly many of them took forever to do something as simple as two digit multiplication. Either, they didn't have their facts memorized cold, or they were still using very inefficient algorithms. Algebra would have been torture, because every single homework set intended to take 30 minutes would have required 2 hours. The IAAT might be too fast of a test, but at least some test to ensure that the kids are sufficiently fluent and don't require inordinate amounts of time to complete their work would be appropriate.

Or they just didn't understand the concept well enough. But there are other possibilities too, perhaps they were still trying to understand the efficient algorithm because it didn't make sense to them and they didn't want to just memorize it (as instructed by their teacher), and they were comfortable still using a slower but more logical algorithm that made sense to them. For instance, it would be a very rare kid in elementary school who can show a great understanding of how the traditional long division algorithm taught in school actually works; after all almost all adults also do not understand it! But almost everyone can automatically use it... without thinking. So... does being able to do long division very quickly using the traditional algorithm mean they're ready for algebra? Not necessarily. Does it help them score well on that specific portion of that specific exam? Definitely. Does it then mean it's generally a good idea to memorize and become 'fluent' in algorithms without a good understanding? Definitely not, and here's why:

There comes a point where it will not be enough for students to just rely on speed (what many of you here are essentially calling 'fluency') with procedural steps. At some point kids will tackle problems that defy standard algorithms and where they will have to figure out what and how to use a particular tool/algorithm. They will need to slow down a little and rely on their understanding of ideas and concepts and how to put them together to solve the particular problem at hand, much like how one has to use logic and reasoning to solve a puzzle. Maybe this point comes before algebra, but for many kids (many who are 'fast' at calculations), this point tends to occur in algebra (or perhaps geometry, or later in high school). At that point slowing down and focusing on why things work they way they do is immensely helpful in improving one's ability to solve math problems.

Huh? The question isn't whether kids who are fluent with math are smarter than other kids or even are more ready for Algebra. The fluent kids might be ready for Algebra. The non-fluent kids aren't yet ready for Algebra because they still need a bit more fluency. Otherwise, their computations will take forever and they will become very frustrated. They ultimately might become better mathematicians, but they simply aren't ready *now* for that level since they lack the foundational skills.

I don't think you appreciate just how awful some of these kids are with fluency. I've encountered AAP 6th graders who were still counting on their fingers. Or ones that would need like 5 minutes to solve 6/7-3/5. It should be entirely possible to complete the SOLs in like an hour. Some kids take the entire day. Shoving them into Algebra without trying to address whatever underlying gaps in understanding or fluency would be a mistake.

You're correct in that of course there are many kids who do not understand fractions well enough, (if they did, they would know how to make a common denominator why it works, i.e equivalent fractions, etc.), and nobody is saying to rush them to algebra if they're not ready, they should certainly wait. At the same time, there are kids who might be ready from an understanding point of view, but they were close but just not at the cutoff of the test needed to place them in. Those kids could very well do quite well in algebra, but they will not be allowed to take it, because perhaps they couldn't quite calculate certain things quickly enough, or more likely they were spending a few extra minutes checking their work, etc, or just did not take any practice tests to help them move more quickly and manage their time. While being very fast at long division and multi-digit computations might be slightly helpful in learning algebra from a time spent perspective, in the end it doesn't matter that much. Here's what matters much more:

Understanding the rules of algebra and how to correctly use them to solve equations, introducing variables to solve problems with unknown quantities, understanding why the rules of algebra work the way they do (i.e interpreting the rules as keeping an equation balanced, etc), writing out steps logically and cleanly on a sheet a paper when solving multi-step algebra problems so that the critical portion of checking one's work can be done easily, understanding what an informal "proof" is (i.e a logically connected explanation) is... these and others are all critical skills to learning and understanding algebra well. None of these skills necessarily demand being very fast at doing computations. If a kid really understands fractions, really understands place value and can use it to understand multiplication, understands division as repeatedly subtracting multiples and can use their own algorithm to divide, etc... but is not very fast with calculations, it doesn't mean they will necessarily have a hard time with algebra. Maybe they'll take longer working through calculations, but as long as they understand the concepts and ideas well, they will naturally pick up speed along the way.

There is an analogy to chess, many chess players think that playing a lot of blitz (speed chess) will help improve their chess skill. But by itself it does not at all. In reality, playing lots of slow chess games (at time controls 10x or greater than speed chess) is what leads to great improvement at blitz chess. The reason is that improving at chess first and foremost requires improving one's understanding of the game, and to do that one has to think about things (especially lost games, what went wrong, how to fix mistakes, how to avoid similar mistakes in the future, etc, basically undergo the learning process). The wonderful thing is if one does this, their chess skill improves... and with it their blitz chess skill also naturally improves, even if they did not play much blitz chess. This is because speed is naturally acquired through pattern recognition, which is naturally built up from understanding of ideas and concepts.

I notice you responded to all the unsupported arguments with your own unsupported arguments, but you still have not responded to the scientific articles I cited which prove you wrong. Go figure

Randomly googled internet links don't really warrant anything here because they are not important, but I can certainly respond if you would like to share some coherent thoughts of your own I think my point stands that attributing speed to having great intelligence is quite silly. It's even more dangerous and detrimental to instill/suggest that idea to your child, as it will likely be detrimental to their growth if they believe that they cannot accomplish things if they are not fast enough.

You're setting up a straw man argument. I didn't say speed = intelligence. I said it's correlated. And that point is absolutely 100% true.

Here's the concluding sentence of your original claim, which is definitely disinformation: "Therefore, if a student cannot solve math problems quickly, they are in fact less intelligent." You're clearly implying causality here and that's just silly. There are many kids who enjoy thinking about things more deeply, are you saying they're less intelligent? There are many adults who like to consider things before they pass judgement or make assumptions, they may be perceived as slow.. are they any less intelligent?

Correlation is not the same as causation, this is a key idea in statistics.

I do statistics for a living my friend. And I hate to tell you, but whether causal or not, when one thing is correlated with another, a reduction in one means a reduction in the other. That's kinda how correlations work. Okay I'm obviously arguing with someone who didn't pass the Iowa test lol

Apologies for the drought last year!
I reduced my usage of umbrella ☔ and jacket 🧥, which means that rainfall was reduced.

[Anonymous]

The kids who are in AAP are split - half take honors math 7 and half take algebra in 7th.

What does the current math teacher recommend? That’s what I would take.

[Anonymous]

DD would rather do math than any other subject. Enjoys math brain teasers, puzzles. Will learn new math concepts on her own. She thrived in M7H