Open enrollment for Math 7 Honors

[Anonymous]

OP, math 7H sounds like a good fit for your kid!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parent here, so a different perspective... In my experience, kids who were in AAP or otherwise advanced in math in ES typically take Honors Algebra in 7th, not Math 7 Honors. Our MS has already moved to an Honors for all strategy so all 7th graders not enrolled in Algebra or a remedial course take Math 7 Honors. Based on what you've stated about your child, I assume they would be fine.

AAP teacher here.

The above is absolutely incorrect. Approximately 20%-50% of my students, depending on the year, take Algebra HN in 7th grade. The others take Math 7 HN.

Different AAP teacher here. Agree. It also varies year to year. Some years more test in than others. Honestly, if the IAAT wasn’t 10 mins per section, you would see more students qualifying. I hate the Iowa because kids think they are dumb if they can’t work as fast, which is completely false.

That's a very feel-good statement but processing speed has always been considered a major component of intelligence. It is a big contributor to IQ scores. In addition, even in practice (like in a work environment), people who very quickly solve a problem or pick up new information and are able to quickly form a judgment about it are considered by others to be more intelligent. Therefore, if a student cannot solve math problems quickly, they are in fact less intelligent.

Agree, wholeheartedly. Math fluency is very important for taking Algebra I in 7th grade. There is a reason the IAAT is timed.

My son is in Alg I in 7th. There is one Alg I class for 7th graders at his school. 11 of the 25 kids went to his ES. We know a few others who qualified but didn’t feel ready for Algebra.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Going from gen Ed math in 6 to math 7 honors can work if kids are good at math and willing to work hard to learn anything they might have missed. Keep in mind that they essentially will be skipping a year of math. Kids taking advanced math in 6 (not just AAP kids) took the 7th grade SOL at the end of 6th grade. Math 7 honors is 8th grade math/pre-algebra.

Which SOL did they take at the end of Math 7 honors?

Algebra 1 H in 8th grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parent here, so a different perspective... In my experience, kids who were in AAP or otherwise advanced in math in ES typically take Honors Algebra in 7th, not Math 7 Honors. Our MS has already moved to an Honors for all strategy so all 7th graders not enrolled in Algebra or a remedial course take Math 7 Honors. Based on what you've stated about your child, I assume they would be fine.

AAP teacher here.

The above is absolutely incorrect. Approximately 20%-50% of my students, depending on the year, take Algebra HN in 7th grade. The others take Math 7 HN.

Different AAP teacher here. Agree. It also varies year to year. Some years more test in than others. Honestly, if the IAAT wasn’t 10 mins per section, you would see more students qualifying. I hate the Iowa because kids think they are dumb if they can’t work as fast, which is completely false.

That's a very feel-good statement but processing speed has always been considered a major component of intelligence. It is a big contributor to IQ scores. In addition, even in practice (like in a work environment), people who very quickly solve a problem or pick up new information and are able to quickly form a judgment about it are considered by others to be more intelligent. Therefore, if a student cannot solve math problems quickly, they are in fact less intelligent.

This is ridiculous. Speed does not make you more intelligent. I didn’t have to work hard at math but double checked my work and was always good at math. This is why kids think they are bad at math.

[pettifogger]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parent here, so a different perspective... In my experience, kids who were in AAP or otherwise advanced in math in ES typically take Honors Algebra in 7th, not Math 7 Honors. Our MS has already moved to an Honors for all strategy so all 7th graders not enrolled in Algebra or a remedial course take Math 7 Honors. Based on what you've stated about your child, I assume they would be fine.

AAP teacher here.

The above is absolutely incorrect. Approximately 20%-50% of my students, depending on the year, take Algebra HN in 7th grade. The others take Math 7 HN.

Different AAP teacher here. Agree. It also varies year to year. Some years more test in than others. Honestly, if the IAAT wasn’t 10 mins per section, you would see more students qualifying. I hate the Iowa because kids think they are dumb if they can’t work as fast, which is completely false.

That's a very feel-good statement but processing speed has always been considered a major component of intelligence. It is a big contributor to IQ scores. In addition, even in practice (like in a work environment), people who very quickly solve a problem or pick up new information and are able to quickly form a judgment about it are considered by others to be more intelligent. Therefore, if a student cannot solve math problems quickly, they are in fact less intelligent.

This statement is completely false. Speed is an artificial construct of the standard k-12 curriculum and standardized testing, that's it. It has nothing to do with problem solving abilities and should never be used to assess intelligence. In particular, speed becomes almost meaningless at higher levels where problems are difficult enough to demand insight and ingenuity. Nobody in college, in jobs or academia, or at the IMO olympiad is complaining that they cannot do well because they are too slow. There many other contributing factors but speed is not going to be one of them. It's quite a terrible thing to test children on something as trivial as speed and then suggest that they are not smart enough because they needed a few more minutes because they were not rushing through something. We wouldn't expect our engineers, scientists, and doctors to rush through things and we certainly wouldn't want to deal with the consequences of a rushed solution, so why don't we give children enough time to think?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Going from gen Ed math in 6 to math 7 honors can work if kids are good at math and willing to work hard to learn anything they might have missed. Keep in mind that they essentially will be skipping a year of math. Kids taking advanced math in 6 (not just AAP kids) took the 7th grade SOL at the end of 6th grade. Math 7 honors is 8th grade math/pre-algebra.

Which SOL did they take at the end of Math 7 honors?

Algebra 1 H in 8th grade.

They take the 8th grade math SOL at the end of 7th honors and Algebra 1 or Algebra 1 honors in 8th grade

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parent here, so a different perspective... In my experience, kids who were in AAP or otherwise advanced in math in ES typically take Honors Algebra in 7th, not Math 7 Honors. Our MS has already moved to an Honors for all strategy so all 7th graders not enrolled in Algebra or a remedial course take Math 7 Honors. Based on what you've stated about your child, I assume they would be fine.

Another parent here with a different experience. No one in our DC AAP class made it into Algebra. They are all taking Honors.

I agree that OPs kid would be fine in Math 7 H, but I have noticed fewer kids going into Algebra 7 H--likely due to disruptions from the pandemic. Our kid qualified and we opted out.

Mine AAP also qualified and we also opted out, not due to Algebra 1 H but due to Geometry. I have 3 kids who came before her and they all breezed through Alg 1 H in 7th but Geometry in 8th tripped 2 of them up. Knowing my last little one, it wasn't worth the headache in 8th.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parent here, so a different perspective... In my experience, kids who were in AAP or otherwise advanced in math in ES typically take Honors Algebra in 7th, not Math 7 Honors. Our MS has already moved to an Honors for all strategy so all 7th graders not enrolled in Algebra or a remedial course take Math 7 Honors. Based on what you've stated about your child, I assume they would be fine.

Another parent here with a different experience. No one in our DC AAP class made it into Algebra. They are all taking Honors.

ouch. Why didn’t anyone make it? It seems like the program isn’t working well.

Read above post. Many kids are strong in math but not fast in math. Many AAP kids like to check their work which slows them down. If the IAAT was not timed, more kids would be testing into Algebra.

It's good it's timed because every Algebra 1 H test my kid had in 7th was times as was all his Geometry H tests in 8th.

[Anonymous]

^ timed (not times)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parent here, so a different perspective... In my experience, kids who were in AAP or otherwise advanced in math in ES typically take Honors Algebra in 7th, not Math 7 Honors. Our MS has already moved to an Honors for all strategy so all 7th graders not enrolled in Algebra or a remedial course take Math 7 Honors. Based on what you've stated about your child, I assume they would be fine.

AAP teacher here.

The above is absolutely incorrect. Approximately 20%-50% of my students, depending on the year, take Algebra HN in 7th grade. The others take Math 7 HN.

Different AAP teacher here. Agree. It also varies year to year. Some years more test in than others. Honestly, if the IAAT wasn’t 10 mins per section, you would see more students qualifying. I hate the Iowa because kids think they are dumb if they can’t work as fast, which is completely false.

That's a very feel-good statement but processing speed has always been considered a major component of intelligence. It is a big contributor to IQ scores. In addition, even in practice (like in a work environment), people who very quickly solve a problem or pick up new information and are able to quickly form a judgment about it are considered by others to be more intelligent. Therefore, if a student cannot solve math problems quickly, they are in fact less intelligent.

This is ridiculous. Speed does not make you more intelligent. I didn’t have to work hard at math but double checked my work and was always good at math. This is why kids think they are bad at math.

I believe the idea is that fluency in calculation and concepts is important in order to be able to succeed in High School math. I could be wrong on that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parent here, so a different perspective... In my experience, kids who were in AAP or otherwise advanced in math in ES typically take Honors Algebra in 7th, not Math 7 Honors. Our MS has already moved to an Honors for all strategy so all 7th graders not enrolled in Algebra or a remedial course take Math 7 Honors. Based on what you've stated about your child, I assume they would be fine.

Another parent here with a different experience. No one in our DC AAP class made it into Algebra. They are all taking Honors.

I agree that OPs kid would be fine in Math 7 H, but I have noticed fewer kids going into Algebra 7 H--likely due to disruptions from the pandemic. Our kid qualified and we opted out.

Interesting. Many of DD's classmates that did not qualify on the basis of their SOS/IAAT scores were offered slots in Algebra 1H. Some barely missed the cutoff, but there is at least one that scored in the low 80th percentile on IAAT, and had SOL scores in the 460s, and his offer came towards the beginning of the school year. So it seems quite possible that there were fewer kids going into it this year than otherwise would.

[Anonymous]

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parent here, so a different perspective... In my experience, kids who were in AAP or otherwise advanced in math in ES typically take Honors Algebra in 7th, not Math 7 Honors. Our MS has already moved to an Honors for all strategy so all 7th graders not enrolled in Algebra or a remedial course take Math 7 Honors. Based on what you've stated about your child, I assume they would be fine.

AAP teacher here.

The above is absolutely incorrect. Approximately 20%-50% of my students, depending on the year, take Algebra HN in 7th grade. The others take Math 7 HN.

Different AAP teacher here. Agree. It also varies year to year. Some years more test in than others. Honestly, if the IAAT wasn’t 10 mins per section, you would see more students qualifying. I hate the Iowa because kids think they are dumb if they can’t work as fast, which is completely false.

That's a very feel-good statement but processing speed has always been considered a major component of intelligence. It is a big contributor to IQ scores. In addition, even in practice (like in a work environment), people who very quickly solve a problem or pick up new information and are able to quickly form a judgment about it are considered by others to be more intelligent. Therefore, if a student cannot solve math problems quickly, they are in fact less intelligent.

This statement is completely false. Speed is an artificial construct of the standard k-12 curriculum and standardized testing, that's it. It has nothing to do with problem solving abilities and should never be used to assess intelligence. In particular, speed becomes almost meaningless at higher levels where problems are difficult enough to demand insight and ingenuity. Nobody in college, in jobs or academia, or at the IMO olympiad is complaining that they cannot do well because they are too slow. There many other contributing factors but speed is not going to be one of them. It's quite a terrible thing to test children on something as trivial as speed and then suggest that they are not smart enough because they needed a few more minutes because they were not rushing through something. We wouldn't expect our engineers, scientists, and doctors to rush through things and we certainly wouldn't want to deal with the consequences of a rushed solution, so why don't we give children enough time to think?

I don't believe that anyone is saying that kids who do not do well on the IAAT are not smart just that they are not ready for Algebra 1 H in 7th grade. Regular Algebra is not an option, it is only offered in 8th grade. Taking Algebra in 8th grade is not an overall comment on intelligence. Many people take Algebra in 8th grade or even 9th grade who are perfectly smart and capable. Not taking Algebra 1 Honors in 7th grade has nothing to do with intelligence.

Just like there are plenty of bright kids who do not end up in AAP or Advanced Math for a variety of reasons. Some kids take longer to develop the fluency in foundational math or LA concepts but once they do, they "catch up" to their peers who happened to pick up the concepts more quickly in ES. Different people learn in different ways, there is nothing wrong with that.

[Anonymous]

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parent here, so a different perspective... In my experience, kids who were in AAP or otherwise advanced in math in ES typically take Honors Algebra in 7th, not Math 7 Honors. Our MS has already moved to an Honors for all strategy so all 7th graders not enrolled in Algebra or a remedial course take Math 7 Honors. Based on what you've stated about your child, I assume they would be fine.

AAP teacher here.

The above is absolutely incorrect. Approximately 20%-50% of my students, depending on the year, take Algebra HN in 7th grade. The others take Math 7 HN.

Different AAP teacher here. Agree. It also varies year to year. Some years more test in than others. Honestly, if the IAAT wasn’t 10 mins per section, you would see more students qualifying. I hate the Iowa because kids think they are dumb if they can’t work as fast, which is completely false.

That's a very feel-good statement but processing speed has always been considered a major component of intelligence. It is a big contributor to IQ scores. In addition, even in practice (like in a work environment), people who very quickly solve a problem or pick up new information and are able to quickly form a judgment about it are considered by others to be more intelligent. Therefore, if a student cannot solve math problems quickly, they are in fact less intelligent.

This statement is completely false. Speed is an artificial construct of the standard k-12 curriculum and standardized testing, that's it. It has nothing to do with problem solving abilities and should never be used to assess intelligence. In particular, speed becomes almost meaningless at higher levels where problems are difficult enough to demand insight and ingenuity. Nobody in college, in jobs or academia, or at the IMO olympiad is complaining that they cannot do well because they are too slow. There many other contributing factors but speed is not going to be one of them. It's quite a terrible thing to test children on something as trivial as speed and then suggest that they are not smart enough because they needed a few more minutes because they were not rushing through something. We wouldn't expect our engineers, scientists, and doctors to rush through things and we certainly wouldn't want to deal with the consequences of a rushed solution, so why don't we give children enough time to think?

It's not about whether the kid is smart enough or not. It's about having sufficient fluency to handle the multistep algebra problems. I worked with some AAP students, and surprisingly many of them took forever to do something as simple as two digit multiplication. Either, they didn't have their facts memorized cold, or they were still using very inefficient algorithms. Algebra would have been torture, because every single homework set intended to take 30 minutes would have required 2 hours. The IAAT might be too fast of a test, but at least some test to ensure that the kids are sufficiently fluent and don't require inordinate amounts of time to complete their work would be appropriate.

[Anonymous]

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parent here, so a different perspective... In my experience, kids who were in AAP or otherwise advanced in math in ES typically take Honors Algebra in 7th, not Math 7 Honors. Our MS has already moved to an Honors for all strategy so all 7th graders not enrolled in Algebra or a remedial course take Math 7 Honors. Based on what you've stated about your child, I assume they would be fine.

AAP teacher here.

The above is absolutely incorrect. Approximately 20%-50% of my students, depending on the year, take Algebra HN in 7th grade. The others take Math 7 HN.

Different AAP teacher here. Agree. It also varies year to year. Some years more test in than others. Honestly, if the IAAT wasn’t 10 mins per section, you would see more students qualifying. I hate the Iowa because kids think they are dumb if they can’t work as fast, which is completely false.

That's a very feel-good statement but processing speed has always been considered a major component of intelligence. It is a big contributor to IQ scores. In addition, even in practice (like in a work environment), people who very quickly solve a problem or pick up new information and are able to quickly form a judgment about it are considered by others to be more intelligent. Therefore, if a student cannot solve math problems quickly, they are in fact less intelligent.

This statement is completely false. Speed is an artificial construct of the standard k-12 curriculum and standardized testing, that's it. It has nothing to do with problem solving abilities and should never be used to assess intelligence. In particular, speed becomes almost meaningless at higher levels where problems are difficult enough to demand insight and ingenuity. Nobody in college, in jobs or academia, or at the IMO olympiad is complaining that they cannot do well because they are too slow. There many other contributing factors but speed is not going to be one of them. It's quite a terrible thing to test children on something as trivial as speed and then suggest that they are not smart enough because they needed a few more minutes because they were not rushing through something. We wouldn't expect our engineers, scientists, and doctors to rush through things and we certainly wouldn't want to deal with the consequences of a rushed solution, so why don't we give children enough time to think?

I could cite a LOT more articles to prove that you don't know what you're talking about, but here are just a few well-cited ones on processing speed and intelligence:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022440599000369
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1467-9280.1996.tb00366.x
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S030105110000051X

[pettifogger]

Anonymous wrote:

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parent here, so a different perspective... In my experience, kids who were in AAP or otherwise advanced in math in ES typically take Honors Algebra in 7th, not Math 7 Honors. Our MS has already moved to an Honors for all strategy so all 7th graders not enrolled in Algebra or a remedial course take Math 7 Honors. Based on what you've stated about your child, I assume they would be fine.

AAP teacher here.

The above is absolutely incorrect. Approximately 20%-50% of my students, depending on the year, take Algebra HN in 7th grade. The others take Math 7 HN.

Different AAP teacher here. Agree. It also varies year to year. Some years more test in than others. Honestly, if the IAAT wasn’t 10 mins per section, you would see more students qualifying. I hate the Iowa because kids think they are dumb if they can’t work as fast, which is completely false.

That's a very feel-good statement but processing speed has always been considered a major component of intelligence. It is a big contributor to IQ scores. In addition, even in practice (like in a work environment), people who very quickly solve a problem or pick up new information and are able to quickly form a judgment about it are considered by others to be more intelligent. Therefore, if a student cannot solve math problems quickly, they are in fact less intelligent.

This statement is completely false. Speed is an artificial construct of the standard k-12 curriculum and standardized testing, that's it. It has nothing to do with problem solving abilities and should never be used to assess intelligence. In particular, speed becomes almost meaningless at higher levels where problems are difficult enough to demand insight and ingenuity. Nobody in college, in jobs or academia, or at the IMO olympiad is complaining that they cannot do well because they are too slow. There many other contributing factors but speed is not going to be one of them. It's quite a terrible thing to test children on something as trivial as speed and then suggest that they are not smart enough because they needed a few more minutes because they were not rushing through something. We wouldn't expect our engineers, scientists, and doctors to rush through things and we certainly wouldn't want to deal with the consequences of a rushed solution, so why don't we give children enough time to think?

It's not about whether the kid is smart enough or not. It's about having sufficient fluency to handle the multistep algebra problems. I worked with some AAP students, and surprisingly many of them took forever to do something as simple as two digit multiplication. Either, they didn't have their facts memorized cold, or they were still using very inefficient algorithms. Algebra would have been torture, because every single homework set intended to take 30 minutes would have required 2 hours. The IAAT might be too fast of a test, but at least some test to ensure that the kids are sufficiently fluent and don't require inordinate amounts of time to complete their work would be appropriate.

Or they just didn't understand the concept well enough. But there are other possibilities too, perhaps they were still trying to understand the efficient algorithm because it didn't make sense to them and they didn't want to just memorize it (as instructed by their teacher), and they were comfortable still using a slower but more logical algorithm that made sense to them. For instance, it would be a very rare kid in elementary school who can show a great understanding of how the traditional long division algorithm taught in school actually works; after all almost all adults also do not understand it! But almost everyone can automatically use it... without thinking. So... does being able to do long division very quickly using the traditional algorithm mean they're ready for algebra? Not necessarily. Does it help them score well on that specific portion of that specific exam? Definitely. Does it then mean it's generally a good idea to memorize and become 'fluent' in algorithms without a good understanding? Definitely not, and here's why:

There comes a point where it will not be enough for students to just rely on speed (what many of you here are essentially calling 'fluency') with procedural steps. At some point kids will tackle problems that defy standard algorithms and where they will have to figure out what and how to use a particular tool/algorithm. They will need to slow down a little and rely on their understanding of ideas and concepts and how to put them together to solve the particular problem at hand, much like how one has to use logic and reasoning to solve a puzzle. Maybe this point comes before algebra, but for many kids (many who are 'fast' at calculations), this point tends to occur in algebra (or perhaps geometry, or later in high school). At that point slowing down and focusing on why things work they way they do is immensely helpful in improving one's ability to solve math problems.