Is APS middle school less rigorous?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just find his whole thread somewhat ridiculous. Do you all have evidence that students from APS who don’t seem (by your standards of private school comparisons or “back in the day” memories) to have enough homework in middle school and therefore (it is resulting in) they are not prepared for their high school classes or not getting high enough AP scores, or not getting into colleges (using todays metrics, not comparing to your “back in the day” admission to Penn when it was 40% admit rate in the early 90’s).

I honestly think you are all just looking for shit to complain about.

You think it's ridiculous to worry about academic rigor? Do you really think middle schoolers should not have any homework?

No and no. But I also don’t expect my kid’s public school to meet their every need or ensure they reach their maximum potential. I am an essential part of that and don’t push all the responsibility of making my child great onto the schools. I enroll them in activities, get them tutoring, read with them, discuss current events with them, look at the syllabi from their classes so I know what they are learning about, help them on projects, teach them study skills, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just find his whole thread somewhat ridiculous. Do you all have evidence that students from APS who don’t seem (by your standards of private school comparisons or “back in the day” memories) to have enough homework in middle school and therefore (it is resulting in) they are not prepared for their high school classes or not getting high enough AP scores, or not getting into colleges (using todays metrics, not comparing to your “back in the day” admission to Penn when it was 40% admit rate in the early 90’s).

I honestly think you are all just looking for shit to complain about.

You think it's ridiculous to worry about academic rigor? Do you really think middle schoolers should not have any homework?

No and no. But I also don’t expect my kid’s public school to meet their every need or ensure they reach their maximum potential. I am an essential part of that and don’t push all the responsibility of making my child great onto the schools. I enroll them in activities, get them tutoring, read with them, discuss current events with them, look at the syllabi from their classes so I know what they are learning about, help them on projects, teach them study skills, etc.

DP. Hmm. Seems like you've presumed that people who think schools should have high standards for all students and help each child achieve to the level they're capable of achieving believe schools are solely responsible for the development and upbringing of their students. I don't believe that's what anyone has stated or implied. Rather, schools should be maximizing their part in it all by supporting each child in the areas schools they have responsibility in, which includes academic achievement, study skills, social skills, and providing opportunities to the extent the school is able to do so. Maybe it would have been better to say schools should ensure each child has the opportunity to achieve their maximum potential, rather than ensuring they achieve it. But that's some unnecessary hair-splitting for this exchange.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The problem with block scheduling is that you can’t really do 2 full lessons a period. Kids don’t have the attention span to stay engaged consistently. So you get through like 1.5 lessons and then kids have about 45 mins to work independently. Kids who work fast can then do homework or get ahead in other classes.

The upside is you have most classes every other day so if something is due you have more time to complete it.

Not if teachers are trained right

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Very very few kids from APS as a whole and any district as a whole getting into Ivys as a percentage this year. Acceptance rates in the single digits. Even with perfect SATs and all As in the most rigorous classes, you are one of many many just like you. In the current climate it is not helpful to use admissions to these schools as a metric of how “good” a high school is. It’s not useful.

+1 Kids get into Ivy-type schools because they are extraordinarily driven + (mostly) some kind of hook. MS-HS you go to has very little to do with creating that profile. More kids do get in from elite privates but that's more because the elite private schools have already done the pre-screening for the hooks like legacy and $$$.

A kid who goes to any APS HS and does well in challenging classes (AP/IB) is going to be prepared for college. Same as any of the surrounding districts.

APS does not prepare you for college the way privates do. It just doesn't. There is almost no focus on writing, grammar, reading books and discussing them in class. It's a real shame. That said, a lot of the amazing admission stats you see from privates are because of legacy admissions/donations and other exceptional hooks. Don't go to private as a ticket to the ivys unless you have a hook. Do go to private for the superior education.

First of all, private schools have a self-selected population that already starts out in an advantaged position. If you expect that from APS, your expectations need to be adjusted.

The curriculum/preparation is likely superior at schools like St. Albans, Andover, Deerfield (over most all public high schools, excluding maybe the most elite ones like Stuyvesant) but there many other reasons why families may stick with public, even if tuition isn’t an issue. And public school parents in wealthy areas most always supplement their kids education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just find his whole thread somewhat ridiculous. Do you all have evidence that students from APS who don’t seem (by your standards of private school comparisons or “back in the day” memories) to have enough homework in middle school and therefore (it is resulting in) they are not prepared for their high school classes or not getting high enough AP scores, or not getting into colleges (using todays metrics, not comparing to your “back in the day” admission to Penn when it was 40% admit rate in the early 90’s).

I honestly think you are all just looking for shit to complain about.

You think it's ridiculous to worry about academic rigor? Do you really think middle schoolers should not have any homework?

No and no. But I also don’t expect my kid’s public school to meet their every need or ensure they reach their maximum potential. I am an essential part of that and don’t push all the responsibility of making my child great onto the schools. I enroll them in activities, get them tutoring, read with them, discuss current events with them, look at the syllabi from their classes so I know what they are learning about, help them on projects, teach them study skills, etc.

So what about kids whose parents don't do all that? Shouldn't schools do what they can to make sure kids all have as close to the same foundation as possible by having them learn as much as they can, including through homework?

[Anonymous]

I just don't understand the argument that no homework/less learning = better or more equitable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I just don't understand the argument that no homework/less learning = better or more equitable.

I agree with this. So kids can't get a good education without homework? We're talking middle schoolers here, they're kids, they should have time to be kids. They shouldn't already be thinking about college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I just don't understand the argument that no homework/less learning = better or more equitable.

My child's algebra teacher said that she felt like with her students, the ones who weren't turning homework were the ones who either had a SN that wasn't being addressed, didn't care about the class, homework or not, or were from an underprivileged background and didn't have access to things that would help do their homework. So she still assigned homework but didn't grade it. She says it didn't change how much kids actually learned based on test scores and classroom discussions, and for the most part, the driven kids who got good grades still did the homework.

I don't know if homework or no homework is better (though I do wish fifth graders were assigned some token homework so they could get used to the idea) but personally I care much more about bad elementary school curricula than I do about homework or no homework. Middle school isn't rigorous in large part because elementary school is all fluff.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just find his whole thread somewhat ridiculous. Do you all have evidence that students from APS who don’t seem (by your standards of private school comparisons or “back in the day” memories) to have enough homework in middle school and therefore (it is resulting in) they are not prepared for their high school classes or not getting high enough AP scores, or not getting into colleges (using todays metrics, not comparing to your “back in the day” admission to Penn when it was 40% admit rate in the early 90’s).

I honestly think you are all just looking for shit to complain about.

You think it's ridiculous to worry about academic rigor? Do you really think middle schoolers should not have any homework?

No and no. But I also don’t expect my kid’s public school to meet their every need or ensure they reach their maximum potential. I am an essential part of that and don’t push all the responsibility of making my child great onto the schools. I enroll them in activities, get them tutoring, read with them, discuss current events with them, look at the syllabi from their classes so I know what they are learning about, help them on projects, teach them study skills, etc.

Yes of course. What has been said over and over is that teachers assign independent work and then homework. If students finish the independent work with time to spare (and others still working) should they not be allowed to move to the homework assignment? And what about other classes that also have 90 minutes bit are classes like teen living or typing etc? If there is extra time at the end of class beyond what is planned for curriculum pacing why can’t students have time to work on homework?
So what about kids whose parents don't do all that? Shouldn't schools do what they can to make sure kids all have as close to the same foundation as possible by having them learn as much as they can, including through homework?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just don't understand the argument that no homework/less learning = better or more equitable.

My child's algebra teacher said that she felt like with her students, the ones who weren't turning homework were the ones who either had a SN that wasn't being addressed, didn't care about the class, homework or not, or were from an underprivileged background and didn't have access to things that would help do their homework. So she still assigned homework but didn't grade it. She says it didn't change how much kids actually learned based on test scores and classroom discussions, and for the most part, the driven kids who got good grades still did the homework.

I don't know if homework or no homework is better (though I do wish fifth graders were assigned some token homework so they could get used to the idea) but personally I care much more about bad elementary school curricula than I do about homework or no homework. Middle school isn't rigorous in large part because elementary school is all fluff.

But this is the problem - if elementary is fluff, and middle isn't rigorous, then what happens in high school? Is it also fluff or is it a total shock? When do kids develop study habits?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just don't understand the argument that no homework/less learning = better or more equitable.

My child's algebra teacher said that she felt like with her students, the ones who weren't turning homework were the ones who either had a SN that wasn't being addressed, didn't care about the class, homework or not, or were from an underprivileged background and didn't have access to things that would help do their homework. So she still assigned homework but didn't grade it. She says it didn't change how much kids actually learned based on test scores and classroom discussions, and for the most part, the driven kids who got good grades still did the homework.

I don't know if homework or no homework is better (though I do wish fifth graders were assigned some token homework so they could get used to the idea) but personally I care much more about bad elementary school curricula than I do about homework or no homework. Middle school isn't rigorous in large part because elementary school is all fluff.

But this is the problem - if elementary is fluff, and middle isn't rigorous, then what happens in high school? Is it also fluff or is it a total shock? When do kids develop study habits?

I don't know, but my middle schooler is developing study habits in middle school. I do think that can happen even if the content isn't as rigorous as it should be. I think even if the curriculum isn't as deep as it should be, you can still learn to organize your folder, how to memorize things, how to keep track of deadlines, etc. And DD has had to do plenty of that.

[Anonymous]

If this is how you feel, do something about it! Stop grousing here on DCUM and TELL THE SCHOOL BOARD about your concerns before a new school year begins and the current policies toward homework and grading in the name of equity continue to be codified!



I have. Thanks so much for the suggestion - never would have thought to do that.

So, you've told the school board, they did nothing (I presume), so instead of trying to organize parents on this issue, you're back here complaining to DCUM. Perhaps you should do more.

[Anonymous]

DP. Hmm. Seems like you've presumed that people who think schools should have high standards for all students and help each child achieve to the level they're capable of achieving believe schools are solely responsible for the development and upbringing of their students. I don't believe that's what anyone has stated or implied. Rather, schools should be maximizing their part in it all by supporting each child in the areas schools they have responsibility in, which includes academic achievement, study skills, social skills, and providing opportunities to the extent the school is able to do so. Maybe it would have been better to say schools should ensure each child has the opportunity to achieve their maximum potential, rather than ensuring they achieve it. But that's some unnecessary hair-splitting for this exchange.

I think you'd be surprised at the number of parents who operate this way, even if they don't admit it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

DP. Hmm. Seems like you've presumed that people who think schools should have high standards for all students and help each child achieve to the level they're capable of achieving believe schools are solely responsible for the development and upbringing of their students. I don't believe that's what anyone has stated or implied. Rather, schools should be maximizing their part in it all by supporting each child in the areas schools they have responsibility in, which includes academic achievement, study skills, social skills, and providing opportunities to the extent the school is able to do so. Maybe it would have been better to say schools should ensure each child has the opportunity to achieve their maximum potential, rather than ensuring they achieve it. But that's some unnecessary hair-splitting for this exchange.

I think you'd be surprised at the number of parents who operate this way, even if they don't admit it.

+1000

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

DP. Hmm. Seems like you've presumed that people who think schools should have high standards for all students and help each child achieve to the level they're capable of achieving believe schools are solely responsible for the development and upbringing of their students. I don't believe that's what anyone has stated or implied. Rather, schools should be maximizing their part in it all by supporting each child in the areas schools they have responsibility in, which includes academic achievement, study skills, social skills, and providing opportunities to the extent the school is able to do so. Maybe it would have been better to say schools should ensure each child has the opportunity to achieve their maximum potential, rather than ensuring they achieve it. But that's some unnecessary hair-splitting for this exchange.

I think you'd be surprised at the number of parents who operate this way, even if they don't admit it.

+1000

Academically, the schools are responsible for that. They have my kids for the prime learning hours of the day, I have my own job, and trying to make up for lackluster learning in the evenings after kids are tired and should be doing appropriate social and athletic activities not make up school work.

I want those core hours at school, when student are fresh to be about instruction and engaged learning, then an afternoon with some exercise, family time, meals and wrap up with targeted homework to reinforce what was taught that say in quiet independent contemplation before sleep.

The homework helps student and teacher identify if there were gaps in learning way earlier than waiting till next test, and the break between instruction and homework helps confirm retention.