What is the “upper” in upper middle class?

[Anonymous]

How are you defining class? By money or decency?

Upper middle class by money to me is HHI in the DMV area of $350k+ In Arlington if you have 2 kids, you're living in a house that's min $1M with 3-4 BR in a decent neighborhood. In Alexandria, you live closer to Del Ray than West End and again, housing there is going to cost appx $1M or so for same house. With the kids, you take at least 1 if not 2 annual vacations, have enough money to drive 2 cars, one of which is at least a "nice" car like Volvo, Audi, etc. You have your kids in at least 1-2 activities (sports/music/etc). You have money to grocery shop at Whole Foods, order take out at least 1-2x week and pretty much can do what you want but aren't spending gobs of money doing stuff other than daily living "well." You don't worry too much about the budget - you don't buy everything in sight and go shopping for a ton of stuff daily - but you also buy what you need and want from Amazon pretty frequently

Upper middle class by a traditional "class" system to me is not about where you went to school but by your disposition. By your manners, your graciousness, your "niceness" and minding your own business, not imparting your opinions on everyone else Class I suppose can mean how you were brought up - knowing why something is right and wrong. It can also be noted whether you have travelled extensively, so that you are comfortable with various cultures - have you tried different kinds of foods for example. I would say travel is definitely something you will see in someone who grew up with a certain amount of money or belong to a certain circle. Have you only been to Disneyland or did you never go anywhere on a plane ever when you were younger? Now that does not mean you don't have any class if that is you but most people are given opportunities to travel at even a young age (esp years ago before it was fashionable to travel so easily). Are you able to get along with different kinds of people without freaking out is another sign of class. You going to be mean to the taxi driver because you don't think a lot of him for driving a taxi? That to me is a sign of a low class person, regardless of where they graduated from or how much money their family has. Speaking in complete sentences is another strong sign that someone actually read a book in their life

Where I live, I consider to be a mostly "upper class neighborhood" by way of $$ but also in the sense of decency as well. There are definitely families that are maybe at $300k or so and maybe some who are not as gracious as others but more than not, my kids hang out with friends pretty upper middle class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:upper middle class has more education (advanced degrees), more money and more refined tastes. if you meet all 3 criteria you are a good example/safely in that category. many people are borderline. like, a surgeon who makes a lot of money but listens to country music and eats at applebees vs. a low paying adjunct with a harvard phd etc.

What is upper middle class music?

Plenty of upper middle class people listen to country music. It’s the default music of a large swath of this country. Similarly, hip hop.

it is precisely the fact that a lot of Americans listen to country music that makes it not acceptable in the upper classes. so this does not show what you think it shows.

it is true that large numbers of umc people listen to mass music but this is only possible when they have other class markers. You can’t go to community college AND listen to country music AND work as a nurse AND drink soda. it’s like DSM - you need to meet a certain number of criteria to get a diagnosis but not everyone meets the same ones.

Drinking soda can eliminate you from being upper class? That’s just bizzare, and something you made up.

And I don’t have a dog in the country music fight, but I’ve known plenty of well off, educated southerners who listen to country music.

You’re exhibiting a lot of provincialism and parochialism here.

I think I agree with the overall point. You listen to country or hip-hop, that means you score lower in that area and probably have to score higher in other areas to "qualify." Listen to country but read Jane Austen, and you're more likely to be upper middle class than if you listen to country but read Archie Comics. If you're a big fan of the Riverdale gang, you probably need to listen to the music on your NPR station.

NP here. You have me initially, but leave Archie and Jughead out of this! Is nothing sacred in this country anymore?!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:upper middle class has more education (advanced degrees), more money and more refined tastes. if you meet all 3 criteria you are a good example/safely in that category. many people are borderline. like, a surgeon who makes a lot of money but listens to country music and eats at applebees vs. a low paying adjunct with a harvard phd etc.

What is upper middle class music?

Plenty of upper middle class people listen to country music. It’s the default music of a large swath of this country. Similarly, hip hop.

it is precisely the fact that a lot of Americans listen to country music that makes it not acceptable in the upper classes. so this does not show what you think it shows.

it is true that large numbers of umc people listen to mass music but this is only possible when they have other class markers. You can’t go to community college AND listen to country music AND work as a nurse AND drink soda. it’s like DSM - you need to meet a certain number of criteria to get a diagnosis but not everyone meets the same ones.

This is just bizarre.

Are you aware of the American Routes radio show on NPR? The host is an Ivy League grad. Country music is often featured in the programs.

Lots of highly educated folks, or at least people who crave a wide range of art experience, listen to a huge expanse of music including country. Maybe in part because they have been exposed to so much and find everything of interest. Country music is connected with folk music, to jazz, to blues, and more recently to pop.

Did you not watch Ken Burns's Country Music? The epitome of UMC television programming.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:upper middle class has more education (advanced degrees), more money and more refined tastes. if you meet all 3 criteria you are a good example/safely in that category. many people are borderline. like, a surgeon who makes a lot of money but listens to country music and eats at applebees vs. a low paying adjunct with a harvard phd etc.

What is upper middle class music?

Plenty of upper middle class people listen to country music. It’s the default music of a large swath of this country. Similarly, hip hop.

it is precisely the fact that a lot of Americans listen to country music that makes it not acceptable in the upper classes. so this does not show what you think it shows.

it is true that large numbers of umc people listen to mass music but this is only possible when they have other class markers. You can’t go to community college AND listen to country music AND work as a nurse AND drink soda. it’s like DSM - you need to meet a certain number of criteria to get a diagnosis but not everyone meets the same ones.

This is just bizarre.

Are you aware of the American Routes radio show on NPR? The host is an Ivy League grad. Country music is often featured in the programs.

Lots of highly educated folks, or at least people who crave a wide range of art experience, listen to a huge expanse of music including country. Maybe in part because they have been exposed to so much and find everything of interest. Country music is connected with folk music, to jazz, to blues, and more recently to pop.

Did you not watch Ken Burns's Country Music? The epitome of UMC television programming.

you think you are contradicting me but in fact that you are confirming that under highly curated, properly credentialed conditions, xyz (country music in this example) can in fact, counteractively, be understood as a signal of sophistication. i agree with that. i was speaking in broad terms - it would take a lifetime to spell out all the little, constantly changing sings. classical music, for example, while overall in high standing, is full of worn out pieces that are popular among the masses and are in fact negative rather than positive signals. it's complicated, but that's the point, because it keeps UPM exclusive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It used to be that lower middle class people were in the trades like plumber, electrician, nurse - ‘blue collar’ workers

And Upper middle class were college educated professional ‘white collar’ workers.

At some point, people stated only associating in with income. So, upper middle class is wherever you draw that line. I do think many on here confuse UMC with lower rich. For example, private school is mainly a rich people thing that many on DCUM think is UMC- same for nearly yearly vacations to foreign lands.

Lol you thought that nurses weren’t educated??

where did the pp say that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:upper middle class has more education (advanced degrees), more money and more refined tastes. if you meet all 3 criteria you are a good example/safely in that category. many people are borderline. like, a surgeon who makes a lot of money but listens to country music and eats at applebees vs. a low paying adjunct with a harvard phd etc.

What is upper middle class music?

In my experience: Bluegrass!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A number of baby boomers moved from UMC to lower upper class. This would be educated professional with a net worth of over $8M.

Interesting. They grew up UMC, then moved to lower upper class? Where did this move happen?

I've seen the reverse with some friends who are now adult children of baby boomers/Gen X parents. They grew up UMC/"low" rich, but professional choices/other extenuating circumstances preclude living like they did as kids through their mid-20s. A couple are subsidized by their parents though not all. I grew up working class and DH and I have ended up doing well. One of these friends has ended up rather bitter even though she will probably inherit 6 figures or more when her parents pass away.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A number of baby boomers moved from UMC to lower upper class. This would be educated professional with a net worth of over $8M.

Damn. I was targeting a net worth of $7.5 million, but guess I can't stop there. I'll just have to work another ... carry the two, etc., etc. ... 112 years.

exactly. 113 years for me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A number of baby boomers moved from UMC to lower upper class. This would be educated professional with a net worth of over $8M.

Interesting. They grew up UMC, then moved to lower upper class? Where did this move happen?

I've seen the reverse with some friends who are now adult children of baby boomers/Gen X parents. They grew up UMC/"low" rich, but professional choices/other extenuating circumstances preclude living like they did as kids through their mid-20s. A couple are subsidized by their parents though not all. I grew up working class and DH and I have ended up doing well. One of these friends has ended up rather bitter even though she will probably inherit 6 figures or more when her parents pass away.

My kids are growing up UMC, though my wife and I grew up solidly MMC. It’s going to be tough for our kids to maintain this level, or go higher. Everything would have to break the right way for them- schools, spouses, career etc. The ladder in the US seems to have gotten very slippery in the last couple of generations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:upper middle class has more education (advanced degrees), more money and more refined tastes. if you meet all 3 criteria you are a good example/safely in that category. many people are borderline. like, a surgeon who makes a lot of money but listens to country music and eats at applebees vs. a low paying adjunct with a harvard phd etc.

What is upper middle class music?

Plenty of upper middle class people listen to country music. It’s the default music of a large swath of this country. Similarly, hip hop.

it is precisely the fact that a lot of Americans listen to country music that makes it not acceptable in the upper classes. so this does not show what you think it shows.

it is true that large numbers of umc people listen to mass music but this is only possible when they have other class markers. You can’t go to community college AND listen to country music AND work as a nurse AND drink soda. it’s like DSM - you need to meet a certain number of criteria to get a diagnosis but not everyone meets the same ones.

This is just bizarre.

Are you aware of the American Routes radio show on NPR? The host is an Ivy League grad. Country music is often featured in the programs.

Lots of highly educated folks, or at least people who crave a wide range of art experience, listen to a huge expanse of music including country. Maybe in part because they have been exposed to so much and find everything of interest. Country music is connected with folk music, to jazz, to blues, and more recently to pop.

Did you not watch Ken Burns's Country Music? The epitome of UMC television programming.

you think you are contradicting me but in fact that you are confirming that under highly curated, properly credentialed conditions, xyz (country music in this example) can in fact, counteractively, be understood as a signal of sophistication. i agree with that. i was speaking in broad terms - it would take a lifetime to spell out all the little, constantly changing sings. classical music, for example, while overall in high standing, is full of worn out pieces that are popular among the masses and are in fact negative rather than positive signals. it's complicated, but that's the point, because it keeps UPM exclusive.

Credentialed performance of country music? Who is licensing these performances?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A number of baby boomers moved from UMC to lower upper class. This would be educated professional with a net worth of over $8M.

Interesting. They grew up UMC, then moved to lower upper class? Where did this move happen?

I've seen the reverse with some friends who are now adult children of baby boomers/Gen X parents. They grew up UMC/"low" rich, but professional choices/other extenuating circumstances preclude living like they did as kids through their mid-20s. A couple are subsidized by their parents though not all. I grew up working class and DH and I have ended up doing well. One of these friends has ended up rather bitter even though she will probably inherit 6 figures or more when her parents pass away.

My kids are growing up UMC, though my wife and I grew up solidly MMC. It’s going to be tough for our kids to maintain this level, or go higher. Everything would have to break the right way for them- schools, spouses, career etc. The ladder in the US seems to have gotten very slippery in the last couple of generations.

yes, agree. my one friend here who has gotten kind of bitter used to mock her parents' bougie ways, but I don't think really explored how she benefited from their largesse. Now that she is divorced, has student loans from grad school (her parents' wallet began to close at some point), and an interesting but not overly high paying job, she has really latched onto how I and a few others live. She wasn't interested when I counted my pennies in that first decade out of college, but she def has opinions now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:upper middle class has more education (advanced degrees), more money and more refined tastes. if you meet all 3 criteria you are a good example/safely in that category. many people are borderline. like, a surgeon who makes a lot of money but listens to country music and eats at applebees vs. a low paying adjunct with a harvard phd etc.

What is upper middle class music?

Plenty of upper middle class people listen to country music. It’s the default music of a large swath of this country. Similarly, hip hop.

it is precisely the fact that a lot of Americans listen to country music that makes it not acceptable in the upper classes. so this does not show what you think it shows.

it is true that large numbers of umc people listen to mass music but this is only possible when they have other class markers. You can’t go to community college AND listen to country music AND work as a nurse AND drink soda. it’s like DSM - you need to meet a certain number of criteria to get a diagnosis but not everyone meets the same ones.

This is just bizarre.

Are you aware of the American Routes radio show on NPR? The host is an Ivy League grad. Country music is often featured in the programs.

Lots of highly educated folks, or at least people who crave a wide range of art experience, listen to a huge expanse of music including country. Maybe in part because they have been exposed to so much and find everything of interest. Country music is connected with folk music, to jazz, to blues, and more recently to pop.

Did you not watch Ken Burns's Country Music? The epitome of UMC television programming.

you think you are contradicting me but in fact that you are confirming that under highly curated, properly credentialed conditions, xyz (country music in this example) can in fact, counteractively, be understood as a signal of sophistication. i agree with that. i was speaking in broad terms - it would take a lifetime to spell out all the little, constantly changing sings. classical music, for example, while overall in high standing, is full of worn out pieces that are popular among the masses and are in fact negative rather than positive signals. it's complicated, but that's the point, because it keeps UPM exclusive.

Credentialed performance of country music? Who is licensing these performances?

NPR, NYT and similar

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A number of baby boomers moved from UMC to lower upper class. This would be educated professional with a net worth of over $8M.

Interesting. They grew up UMC, then moved to lower upper class? Where did this move happen?

I've seen the reverse with some friends who are now adult children of baby boomers/Gen X parents. They grew up UMC/"low" rich, but professional choices/other extenuating circumstances preclude living like they did as kids through their mid-20s. A couple are subsidized by their parents though not all. I grew up working class and DH and I have ended up doing well. One of these friends has ended up rather bitter even though she will probably inherit 6 figures or more when her parents pass away.

My kids are growing up UMC, though my wife and I grew up solidly MMC. It’s going to be tough for our kids to maintain this level, or go higher. Everything would have to break the right way for them- schools, spouses, career etc. The ladder in the US seems to have gotten very slippery in the last couple of generations.

Everything DID break right especially for older professional baby boomers. Cheap education and housing followed by housing boom and rising stock market. But they are too busy traveling to post here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:upper middle class has more education (advanced degrees), more money and more refined tastes. if you meet all 3 criteria you are a good example/safely in that category. many people are borderline. like, a surgeon who makes a lot of money but listens to country music and eats at applebees vs. a low paying adjunct with a harvard phd etc.

What is upper middle class music?

In my experience: Bluegrass!

Absolutely. It's amazing to see how the places that used to draw working class crowd are now overrun by hipsters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:upper middle class has more education (advanced degrees), more money and more refined tastes. if you meet all 3 criteria you are a good example/safely in that category. many people are borderline. like, a surgeon who makes a lot of money but listens to country music and eats at applebees vs. a low paying adjunct with a harvard phd etc.

What is upper middle class music?

Plenty of upper middle class people listen to country music. It’s the default music of a large swath of this country. Similarly, hip hop.

it is precisely the fact that a lot of Americans listen to country music that makes it not acceptable in the upper classes. so this does not show what you think it shows.

it is true that large numbers of umc people listen to mass music but this is only possible when they have other class markers. You can’t go to community college AND listen to country music AND work as a nurse AND drink soda. it’s like DSM - you need to meet a certain number of criteria to get a diagnosis but not everyone meets the same ones.

I’ll bite here. I know exactly what you are talking about. I’m an educated professional who listens to country music. My major was an upper class one. A lot of the country music to the masses is like “AA” as in Alcoholic anonymous, and another about taking the girl to Wendy’s and Applebee’s. It’s such a gross song, I usually tune that one off. I don’t identify with it at all. I never take my kids to Wendy’s or Applebee’s. But for that MC person, I guess they do.

The UMC country songs are geared to the young UMC. There’s definitely a tier in country artists. This is exactly what the Paul Fidel book talk about and how you don’t escape your class. You can move up the ladder, make $8M but if you drink Diet Coke then it’s a part of you that’s still there. Fine if balanced, part of what people will find endearing.
This is just bizarre.

Are you aware of the American Routes radio show on NPR? The host is an Ivy League grad. Country music is often featured in the programs.

Lots of highly educated folks, or at least people who crave a wide range of art experience, listen to a huge expanse of music including country. Maybe in part because they have been exposed to so much and find everything of interest. Country music is connected with folk music, to jazz, to blues, and more recently to pop.

Did you not watch Ken Burns's Country Music? The epitome of UMC television programming.

you think you are contradicting me but in fact that you are confirming that under highly curated, properly credentialed conditions, xyz (country music in this example) can in fact, counteractively, be understood as a signal of sophistication. i agree with that. i was speaking in broad terms - it would take a lifetime to spell out all the little, constantly changing sings. classical music, for example, while overall in high standing, is full of worn out pieces that are popular among the masses and are in fact negative rather than positive signals. it's complicated, but that's the point, because it keeps UPM exclusive.