The Last of Us - HBO TV show (With game spoilers)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean, let’s get real. The Fireflies were completely inept from the beginning! They were always getting killed off en masse by infected or even the idiot battery thieves from the first episode. If I were Joel, I DEFINITELY would have done the same and saved Ellie and killed off whoever I needed to in order to GTFO. Shit, that doctor the Fireflies had was probably a podiatrist or whatever in the before times. And really, they were going to just kill Ellie on this risky as hell gambit? No trying other less lethal ideas first? I mean, what are the odds that even if that doctor wasn’t a podiatrist, that he was BOTH an extremely skilled neurosurgeon AND an accomplished epedemiologist with vaccine development expertise? And that all of the ancillary technology was also available? Yeah, I’m sure that “plan” had more than a 0.000000001% chance of working.

+1, it's horrifying to watch Joel murder all those people, but their plan is deranged and shows they are every bit as dangerous as FEDRA or the militant opposition group in St. Louis. Which means they are dangerous.

Just killing this girl you've raised since infancy on the premise that this ONE doctor thinks he can use cells from her body to develop a cure? I don't know a single scientist worth their salt who would consider that a viable plan, or in any way ethical, unless you'd done extensive testing, run experiments, looked for alternatives, etc.

The don't even have plans in place to manufacture this imaginary cure that they assume will be developed... when? Or distribute it. Since you are talking about killing someone here, how about you let them enjoy a little more life while you sort out some of these details?

Like the mere fact these people were ready to grab Ellie and kill her to harvest her cells without even saying hello tells you everything you need to know about them. Yes the scene is upsetting and it's also upsetting when he kills Marlene and it's upsetting when he lies to Ellie. It's not like he's 100% morally in the right. But the idea that I'm supposed to take it as a given that the Fireflies are making a moral, thought-out choice in killing Ellie, instead of a violent and rash decision that disregards human life for a crackpot plan that probably won't work? Nope. On balance, I think Joel made the right choice AND I think part of the beauty of his character is that he's probably one of the few people who would have been able to make that choice -- other guardians Ellie might have wound up with might have wanted to save her but lacked the skill or courage or, frankly, the cynicism to do so.

Tommy was once a fireflie and he quit. It's enough information.

[Anonymous]

Did you see the press today that season 2 takes place 5 years after the events of season 1?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Great finale and season. However, as someone who did not play the game, the moral dilemma aspect didn’t strike me so much as I watched the ending. The way I viewed everything, they were going to kill Ellie based on a doctor’s assertion that he could MAYBE create a vaccine. And then that vaccine MIGHT save lives but there’s no assurance that it would lead to the restoration of normal government, since things were already fubar worldwide. So in my mind yeah, it would be reasonable for Marlene and team to pump the brakes and look for a way to develop a vaccine without killing Ellie. They know how she became immune, and it did not require anyone’s brain to be removed, so it just does not logically follow that this was the only way to proceed. So in my viewing it felt like Joel was completely justified in his actions.

I get that I am making my own inferences here but I’m just explaining how I perceived it.

I completely agree. I didn't see any moral dilemma, other than saving Ellie from a death sentence that had a tiny possibility of creating a cure. I almost think he should have just been truthful with her. Surely she didn't want to *die*?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Great finale and season. However, as someone who did not play the game, the moral dilemma aspect didn’t strike me so much as I watched the ending. The way I viewed everything, they were going to kill Ellie based on a doctor’s assertion that he could MAYBE create a vaccine. And then that vaccine MIGHT save lives but there’s no assurance that it would lead to the restoration of normal government, since things were already fubar worldwide. So in my mind yeah, it would be reasonable for Marlene and team to pump the brakes and look for a way to develop a vaccine without killing Ellie. They know how she became immune, and it did not require anyone’s brain to be removed, so it just does not logically follow that this was the only way to proceed. So in my viewing it felt like Joel was completely justified in his actions.

I get that I am making my own inferences here but I’m just explaining how I perceived it.

I agree with this.

That’s how evolving science is, though. There is no way to tell and sometimes people need to be sacrificed for the greater good or possible greater good.

Or they just take blood samples and work with that.

Exactly! By killing Ellie, they would have effectively killed any further hope of working with her DNA. Seems incredibly drastic and rash to proceed with the surgery. Joel did the right thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The ending was perfect. Her ‘ok’ could mean so many things. He made the choice every parent would make - f mankind, I’m saving my kid. The whole hospital scene - music, 100% commitment to the goal, everything. The baring of their souls throughout the episode. Everything was a perfect culmination of their entire journey.

It was uplifting and kind of depressing at the same time. You have these great moments with the giraffes and the two of them traveling and talking, and then the realization that this lie is going to be massively destructive, and the beginning of the end of their relationship has started. I kind of winced when Joel talked about Sarah - and I felt like Ellie really understood something there too. And that she's kind of afraid of it.

Same reaction to Joel talking about Sarah. On one hand he hasn't talked about her for 20 years and it's healthy that he is finally doing that. But on the other hand it's a lot to put on Ellie. She's just a kid and is dealing with a lot of her own trauma. I'm worried that he's opened the floodgates and is going to make her feel like she's a replacement for Sarah. He's the adult and Ellie is the child- I don't want her to have to manage his emotions and play that role. I didn't play the game, but I have to imagine she will eventually learn what he did at the hospital and that she'll be furious that he took her "purpose" from her and saved her as a re do for what he couldn't do for Sarah. I don't agree that dying for a possible cure is Ellie's "purpose" but I think that's how she's going to feel when this conflict comes.

Also wow - the fact that her first question when she woke up in the car was "where are my clothes" really broke my heart. She has a long and hard road ahead of her to process and recover from what David did to her.

Wut?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The ending was perfect. Her ‘ok’ could mean so many things. He made the choice every parent would make - f mankind, I’m saving my kid. The whole hospital scene - music, 100% commitment to the goal, everything. The baring of their souls throughout the episode. Everything was a perfect culmination of their entire journey.

It was uplifting and kind of depressing at the same time. You have these great moments with the giraffes and the two of them traveling and talking, and then the realization that this lie is going to be massively destructive, and the beginning of the end of their relationship has started. I kind of winced when Joel talked about Sarah - and I felt like Ellie really understood something there too. And that she's kind of afraid of it.

Same reaction to Joel talking about Sarah. On one hand he hasn't talked about her for 20 years and it's healthy that he is finally doing that. But on the other hand it's a lot to put on Ellie. She's just a kid and is dealing with a lot of her own trauma. I'm worried that he's opened the floodgates and is going to make her feel like she's a replacement for Sarah. He's the adult and Ellie is the child- I don't want her to have to manage his emotions and play that role. I didn't play the game, but I have to imagine she will eventually learn what he did at the hospital and that she'll be furious that he took her "purpose" from her and saved her as a re do for what he couldn't do for Sarah. I don't agree that dying for a possible cure is Ellie's "purpose" but I think that's how she's going to feel when this conflict comes.

Also wow - the fact that her first question when she woke up in the car was "where are my clothes" really broke my heart. She has a long and hard road ahead of her to process and recover from what David did to her.

Wut?

DP I think that poster is over-reaching. She literally just wanted her clothes, it was a practical question.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The ending was perfect. Her ‘ok’ could mean so many things. He made the choice every parent would make - f mankind, I’m saving my kid. The whole hospital scene - music, 100% commitment to the goal, everything. The baring of their souls throughout the episode. Everything was a perfect culmination of their entire journey.

It was uplifting and kind of depressing at the same time. You have these great moments with the giraffes and the two of them traveling and talking, and then the realization that this lie is going to be massively destructive, and the beginning of the end of their relationship has started. I kind of winced when Joel talked about Sarah - and I felt like Ellie really understood something there too. And that she's kind of afraid of it.

Same reaction to Joel talking about Sarah. On one hand he hasn't talked about her for 20 years and it's healthy that he is finally doing that. But on the other hand it's a lot to put on Ellie. She's just a kid and is dealing with a lot of her own trauma. I'm worried that he's opened the floodgates and is going to make her feel like she's a replacement for Sarah. He's the adult and Ellie is the child- I don't want her to have to manage his emotions and play that role. I didn't play the game, but I have to imagine she will eventually learn what he did at the hospital and that she'll be furious that he took her "purpose" from her and saved her as a re do for what he couldn't do for Sarah. I don't agree that dying for a possible cure is Ellie's "purpose" but I think that's how she's going to feel when this conflict comes.

Also wow - the fact that her first question when she woke up in the car was "where are my clothes" really broke my heart. She has a long and hard road ahead of her to process and recover from what David did to her.

Wut?

DP I think that poster is over-reaching. She literally just wanted her clothes, it was a practical question.

Exactly! Such a weird, overly dramatic take.

[Anonymous]

Okay I might get the name wrong, Marlene? Ellie's mom's best friend...

Why is she telling Joel the plan to kill Ellie? It's unrealistic. "oh, we're killing Ellie, and off you go to the side of the road to find your way back to Boston, too-duh-loo!"

It reminded me of the 60s series Batman, where the Joker would tie Batman and Robin up and then tell them his whole diabolical plan...while Batman and Robin were cutting through the ropes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Okay I might get the name wrong, Marlene? Ellie's mom's best friend...

Why is she telling Joel the plan to kill Ellie? It's unrealistic. "oh, we're killing Ellie, and off you go to the side of the road to find your way back to Boston, too-duh-loo!"

It reminded me of the 60s series Batman, where the Joker would tie Batman and Robin up and then tell them his whole diabolical plan...while Batman and Robin were cutting through the ropes.

It has to be plain and clear in order to trigger the mass execution response that he has. It is a plot device.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Okay I might get the name wrong, Marlene? Ellie's mom's best friend...

Why is she telling Joel the plan to kill Ellie? It's unrealistic. "oh, we're killing Ellie, and off you go to the side of the road to find your way back to Boston, too-duh-loo!"

It reminded me of the 60s series Batman, where the Joker would tie Batman and Robin up and then tell them his whole diabolical plan...while Batman and Robin were cutting through the ropes.

It has to be plain and clear in order to trigger the mass execution response that he has. It is a plot device.

Exactly. From a scientific perspective it's really stupid- they don't need the fungus in her brain, they need whatever her body is producing in response that "fools" it. Instead of blood samples and biopsies, you take the ENTIRE LIVING SAMPLE, that isn't even the thing you need the sample of, and kill the only successful host? It's just straight up dumb. It ONLY makes sense as a plot device.

I didn't think it was much of a moral dilemma since it was such a bad plan. But I also didn't really think "doing the right thing" was the right frame, it's very consistent with Joel's character that his focus is taking care of his own. He's sympathetic but I don't think that means he's "good" or the show is trying to make that claim.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Okay I might get the name wrong, Marlene? Ellie's mom's best friend...

Why is she telling Joel the plan to kill Ellie? It's unrealistic. "oh, we're killing Ellie, and off you go to the side of the road to find your way back to Boston, too-duh-loo!"

It reminded me of the 60s series Batman, where the Joker would tie Batman and Robin up and then tell them his whole diabolical plan...while Batman and Robin were cutting through the ropes.

It has to be plain and clear in order to trigger the mass execution response that he has. It is a plot device.

Exactly. From a scientific perspective it's really stupid- they don't need the fungus in her brain, they need whatever her body is producing in response that "fools" it. Instead of blood samples and biopsies, you take the ENTIRE LIVING SAMPLE, that isn't even the thing you need the sample of, and kill the only successful host? It's just straight up dumb. It ONLY makes sense as a plot device.

I didn't think it was much of a moral dilemma since it was such a bad plan. But I also didn't really think "doing the right thing" was the right frame, it's very consistent with Joel's character that his focus is taking care of his own. He's sympathetic but I don't think that means he's "good" or the show is trying to make that claim.

I agree that it is a plot device. But how about, Joel wakes up from unconciousness and overhears the plan being discussed? I'm just saying, I thought this was sloppy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Okay I might get the name wrong, Marlene? Ellie's mom's best friend...

Why is she telling Joel the plan to kill Ellie? It's unrealistic. "oh, we're killing Ellie, and off you go to the side of the road to find your way back to Boston, too-duh-loo!"

It reminded me of the 60s series Batman, where the Joker would tie Batman and Robin up and then tell them his whole diabolical plan...while Batman and Robin were cutting through the ropes.

It has to be plain and clear in order to trigger the mass execution response that he has. It is a plot device.

Exactly. From a scientific perspective it's really stupid- they don't need the fungus in her brain, they need whatever her body is producing in response that "fools" it. Instead of blood samples and biopsies, you take the ENTIRE LIVING SAMPLE, that isn't even the thing you need the sample of, and kill the only successful host? It's just straight up dumb. It ONLY makes sense as a plot device.

I didn't think it was much of a moral dilemma since it was such a bad plan. But I also didn't really think "doing the right thing" was the right frame, it's very consistent with Joel's character that his focus is taking care of his own. He's sympathetic but I don't think that means he's "good" or the show is trying to make that claim.

I agree that it is a plot device. But how about, Joel wakes up from unconciousness and overhears the plan being discussed? I'm just saying, I thought this was sloppy.

I didn't

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Okay I might get the name wrong, Marlene? Ellie's mom's best friend...

Why is she telling Joel the plan to kill Ellie? It's unrealistic. "oh, we're killing Ellie, and off you go to the side of the road to find your way back to Boston, too-duh-loo!"

It reminded me of the 60s series Batman, where the Joker would tie Batman and Robin up and then tell them his whole diabolical plan...while Batman and Robin were cutting through the ropes.

It has to be plain and clear in order to trigger the mass execution response that he has. It is a plot device.

Exactly. From a scientific perspective it's really stupid- they don't need the fungus in her brain, they need whatever her body is producing in response that "fools" it. Instead of blood samples and biopsies, you take the ENTIRE LIVING SAMPLE, that isn't even the thing you need the sample of, and kill the only successful host? It's just straight up dumb. It ONLY makes sense as a plot device.

I didn't think it was much of a moral dilemma since it was such a bad plan. But I also didn't really think "doing the right thing" was the right frame, it's very consistent with Joel's character that his focus is taking care of his own. He's sympathetic but I don't think that means he's "good" or the show is trying to make that claim.

I agree that it is a plot device. But how about, Joel wakes up from unconciousness and overhears the plan being discussed? I'm just saying, I thought this was sloppy.

I didn't

+1. Seems clear to me that the Fireflies in general, and their leader in particular, are 1. crazy; 2. extremely self-righteous; and 3. don't have any idea what they are doing except for being violent. Marlene seems like exactly the kind of person who might disclose what is going on to Joel because she wants (and sort of expects) his buy-in, but also has a cruel streak and on some level wanted to hurt him. So it kind of rang reasonably true to me given the context; it wasn't like Auric Goldfinger wandering off while his attempted execution of James Bond was in progress. Yes, it was stupid of Marlene to tell him, but the Fireflies have been stupid and crazy from the beginning.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Okay I might get the name wrong, Marlene? Ellie's mom's best friend...

Why is she telling Joel the plan to kill Ellie? It's unrealistic. "oh, we're killing Ellie, and off you go to the side of the road to find your way back to Boston, too-duh-loo!"

It reminded me of the 60s series Batman, where the Joker would tie Batman and Robin up and then tell them his whole diabolical plan...while Batman and Robin were cutting through the ropes.

It has to be plain and clear in order to trigger the mass execution response that he has. It is a plot device.

Exactly. From a scientific perspective it's really stupid- they don't need the fungus in her brain, they need whatever her body is producing in response that "fools" it. Instead of blood samples and biopsies, you take the ENTIRE LIVING SAMPLE, that isn't even the thing you need the sample of, and kill the only successful host? It's just straight up dumb. It ONLY makes sense as a plot device.

I didn't think it was much of a moral dilemma since it was such a bad plan. But I also didn't really think "doing the right thing" was the right frame, it's very consistent with Joel's character that his focus is taking care of his own. He's sympathetic but I don't think that means he's "good" or the show is trying to make that claim.

I agree that it is a plot device. But how about, Joel wakes up from unconciousness and overhears the plan being discussed? I'm just saying, I thought this was sloppy.

I didn't

+1. Seems clear to me that the Fireflies in general, and their leader in particular, are 1. crazy; 2. extremely self-righteous; and 3. don't have any idea what they are doing except for being violent. Marlene seems like exactly the kind of person who might disclose what is going on to Joel because she wants (and sort of expects) his buy-in, but also has a cruel streak and on some level wanted to hurt him. So it kind of rang reasonably true to me given the context; it wasn't like Auric Goldfinger wandering off while his attempted execution of James Bond was in progress. Yes, it was stupid of Marlene to tell him, but the Fireflies have been stupid and crazy from the beginning.

Yes, and also quite simply she felt righteous. She thought they were saving the world, potentially. How would ANYONE argue with that? It's not nuanced, but it was clearly her stance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Good episode.

I'm readjusting my expectations a little bit. It's pretty slow and methodical storytelling. I wish we had gotten a bit more Joel and Tommy because that was interesting. Obviously a lot of love, affection, and loyalty, but more going on under the surface.

And great acting by Bella Ramsey. She really nailed it when opening up to Joel.

This is one of the most beautiful scenes in the game. Ashley Johnson nailed it. Side note: Ellie in the Game is voiced by Ashley Johnson who was the littlest sister on Growing Pains. Starts around 1:15.

Ok wait. I am old and uninformed but how is this a video game? This is not like pac man or wii fit. When you play what are you playing if there is a predetermined plot?