Gaza War, Part 3

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Where are the hostages? It’s day 91.

And, where are the calls to release them?

Are you brain damaged? The calls to release the hostages have been coming from day one. But Hamas continues to play games. And one sad truth is that a significant number of the hostages are already dead yet Hamas continues to try and use them as bargaining chips, because they have nothing else.

My guess is that the hostages that a were released are the only ones left alive. Hamas didn’t release 1:1 hostages for prisoners because they didn’t have enough to give. Chances are most of them were killed within 48 hours. That’s the tragic statistic for kidnapping and murder in general, why wouldn’t it hold for this scenario? Children who are kidnapped and murdered are typically killed in the first few hours. Terribly sad but true.

Hostages are kidnapped to get something, not to kill them. If Hamas aimed to kill them, they could have easily done it on Oct 7. It would certainly be easier than dragging them across the border and then feed them, treat them and move them constantly so they don't get killed by Israeli bombs.

The bolded is essentially correct.

But one of the things that terrorists want to "get" is revenge. I hate to say it, but it's likely that some of the remaining hostages have been tortured or abused to such an extent that Hamas cannot release them for political reasons.

They'll simply disappear or Hamas will claim that they were "killed in an Israeli airstrike".

Others may be out of Hamas's direct control at this point--given the number of hostages, Hamas almost certainly had to outsource their captivity to affiliated groups and individuals.

Given the fog of war, I doubt Hamas even has the ability to track all of them down at this point.

+1000
It is so sad/infuriating to think of the fate of the remaining hostages, especially given the reports of abuse suffered by those who were released. How much worse must those remaining be treated for Hamas to decide it would be bad PR for them to let them go and tell their stories?

Exactly. The “keep smiling” videos showed the side of Hamas these poor kidnapped children saw. Sinister and cruel. They would absolutely kill as the “reward” for kidnapping Jews. After all, it’s in Hamas’ charter to do just that.

Why does it matter if it was in Hamas charter? The Quran and prophet literally call for jihad and the murder of nonbelievers.

To be fair, the Old Testament (Deuteronomy 13 and 17, for example) and the Talmud say much the same.

I must have missed the news about Christians committing unprovoked acts of holy war in the name of God.

So Jews can cop to their fairytales being no better when it comes to viciously brutal human rights abuses than Islamic fairytales because Crusades, Inquisition, etc.?

Weird logic, but par for the course, I guess.

I must have missed the news of thousands of Jewish terror attacks on civilians and children in the name of God over the past few decades.

All religions are fairy tales. Some more harmful than others.

Yes you missed land grab and army/settler attacks in the West Bank who feel entitled to the land bc sky daddy promise. And oh yeah, guns.

Sky daddy promise? No.
UN promise? Yes.

UN didn’t promise israel the West Bank, or Gaza.

Israel: U.N. is corrupt and we will never abide by their actions. Except that one time. We're really cool with that, actually. But everything else. No way.

We all know why Hamas chooses to terrorize the Israelis and not the UN who is actually responsible for the current borders.

The current borders— even the 67 borders— are not the UN borders.

It doesn’t matter. From the River to the Sea right? Any Israeli state will be attacked by Islamic Jihadists no matter the borders.

Yes. That's the problem. There is no solution that accommodates the existance of Israel, no matter what the borders are. 25 percent of Israel is Arab. There are lots of liberals, including most that were massacred on 10/7 - kibitzers and young people at a music festival.

Hamas and Islamic Jihad will always be genocidal.

That's the problem.

It was a poor choice electing Hamas in 2005. And it was a very bad choice to invade Israel.

Don't see a way out until the 30,000-40,000 Hamas militants are destroyed and Palestininns make better choices.

And I see neither of those things happening.

Gaza is wrecked. Stupid choices. Real consequences.

Whoever you are, do you have anything else to add to this thread then posting the above every single day? Any other thoughts? I literally have seen this posted a dozen or more times.

So what's your plan?

How do you see this resolving"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The moralest army in the world.
https://www.972mag.com/israel-torture-camp-gaza-detainees/

In early December, images circulated worldwide showing dozens of Palestinian men in the city of Beit Lahiya, in the northern Gaza Strip, who were stripped to their underwear, kneeling or sitting hunched over, then blindfolded and put into the back of Israeli military trucks like cattle. The vast majority of these detainees were civilians with no affiliation to Hamas, Israeli security officials later confirmed, and the men were taken away by the army without notifying their families of the detainees’ whereabouts. Some of them never returned.

+972 Magazine and Local Call spoke with four Palestinian civilians who appeared in these photos, or were arrested near the scene and taken to Israeli military detention centers, where they were held for several days or even weeks before being released back to Gaza. Their testimonies — along with 49 video testimonies published by various Arabic media outlets of Palestinians arrested in similar circumstances in recent weeks in the northern districts of Zeitoun, Jabalia, and Shuja’iya — indicate systematic abuse and torture by Israeli soldiers against all of the detainees, civilians and combatants alike.

According to these testimonies, Israeli soldiers subjected Palestinian detainees to electric shocks, burned their skin with lighters, spat in their mouths, and deprived them of sleep, food, and access to bathrooms until they defecated on themselves. Many were tied to a fence for hours, handcuffed, and blindfolded for most of the day. Some testified to having been beaten all over their bodies and having cigarettes extinguished on their necks or backs. Several people are known to have died as a result of being held in these conditions.
...

According to the testimonies, the Palestinian detainees from Beit Lahiya were loaded onto trucks and taken to a beach. They were left bound there for hours, and another photograph of them was taken and circulated on social media. Lubad recounted how one of the female Israeli soldiers asked several detainees to dance and then filmed them.

The detainees, still in their underwear, were then taken to another beach inside Israel, near the Zikim army base, where, according to their testimonies, soldiers interrogated them and severely beat them. According to media reports, members of IDF Unit 504, a military intelligence corps, carried out these initial interrogations.

Maher recounted his experience to +972 and Local Call: “A soldier asked me, ‘What’s your name?’ and started punching me in the stomach and kicking me. He said, ‘You’ve been in Hamas for two years, tell me how they recruited you.’ I told him I was a student. Two soldiers opened my legs and punched me there and punched me in the face. I started coughing and realized that I wasn’t breathing. I told them, ‘I’m a civilian, I’m a civilian.’

“I remember reaching my hand down my body and feeling something heavy,” Maher continued. “I didn’t realize it was my leg. I stopped feeling my body. I told the soldier that it hurt, and he stopped and asked where; I told him in the stomach, and then he hit me hard in the stomach. They told me to get up. I couldn’t feel my legs and couldn’t walk. Every time I fell, they beat me again. My mouth and nose were bleeding, and I fainted.”

..

Inside the military base, the Palestinians were held in clusters of around 100. According to the testimonies, they were handcuffed and blindfolded the whole time, and permitted to rest only between midnight and 5 a.m.

One of the detainees in each cluster, whom the soldiers chose because he knew Hebrew and was given the title “Shawish” (a slang term for a servant or subordinate), was the only one without a blindfold. The former detainees explained that the soldiers guarding them had green laser flashlights that they used to mark anyone who moved, changed position because of pain, or made a sound. The Shawish brought these detainees to soldiers standing on the other side of the barbed wire fence surrounding the facility, where they were punished.

According to testimonies, the most common punishment was being tied to a fence and having to raise their arms for several hours. Whoever lowered them was taken away by the soldiers and beaten.

The Israeli army confirmed to +972 and Local Call that detainees from Gaza died at the facility. “There are known cases of deaths of detainees held in the detention facility,” the IDF Spokesperson said.

In video testimonies, Palestinians who were released back to Gaza describe cases in which soldiers put out cigarettes on detainees’ bodies and even gave them electric shocks. “I was detained for 18 days,” a young man told Al Jazeera. “[The soldier] sees you falling asleep, takes a lighter, and burns your back. They put out cigarettes on my back a few times. One of the guys [who was blindfolded] said to [the soldier], ‘I want to drink water,’ and the soldier told him to open his mouth and then spat in it.”

Lubad was taken to Jerusalem for interrogation three days later. “The interrogator punched me in the face, and in the end they took me outside and blindfolded me,” he said. “I tried to take the blindfold off, because it hurt, and a soldier kneed me in the forehead, so I left it.

“Half an hour later, they brought another detainee, a university professor,” Lubad continued. “Apparently, he didn’t cooperate with them during the interrogation. They beat him really brutally next to me. They told him, ‘You’re defending Hamas, you’re not answering questions. Get down on your knees, raise your hands.’ I felt two people coming toward me. I thought it was my turn to be beaten and cramped my body to prepare. Someone whispered in my ear: ‘Say dog.’ I said I didn’t understand. He said to me, ‘Say, the day will come for every dog,’” implying death or punishment.

Lubad was then released back to the detention cell. According to him, conditions in Jerusalem were better than in the facility in the south. For the first time, he was not handcuffed or blindfolded. “I was in so much pain and so tired that I fell asleep, and that was it,” he said.

On Dec. 14, a week after he was taken from his home in Beit Lahiya, leaving behind his wife and three children, Lubad was put on a bus back to the Kerem Shalom Crossing between Israel and the Gaza Strip. He counted 14 buses, and hundreds of detainees. He and another witness told +972 and Local Call that soldiers told them to run and said that “whoever looks back, we’ll shoot him.”

Irredeemable animals. Honestly, I don't care to hear another word about the holocaust, 10/7, or students cowering in libraries while any of these atrocities are being defended by anyone.

Why so many barbaric acts in that region?

Fairytales bring out the worst in people.

Wow, what a smart, nuanced take!

Oh, you wanted a more direct explanation? How about this:

When you have a naturally unpleasant, cantankerous group of immigrants who have brainwashed themselves into believing that that they are special and entitled to the property of others, hostilities with those they steal from inevitably ensues.

Better ... ?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Protesters Should be Calling For Hamas to Lay Down Its Arms and Return the Hostages.

Do You Think Hamas Would Listen To Protesters?

No need to Mock My Style, please, to make your argument.

Whether Hamas listens or not is not the Full Point. The Full Point is that a call for Hamas to Lay Down Its Arms and Release the Hostages is the Morally Correct Stance to Take. Better, at lease than protesting as what is, in effect, one of Hamas’ Useful Idiots.

Then Go Get A Poster And Start Protesting.

Yes, engaging with Hamas’ Useful Idiots protesting world wide as to why the are not calling on Hamas to Surrender and Release the Hostages sounds like a prudent idea. I have debated Israel haters about this. Hamas’ Surrendering is the most straightforward and expeditious path to End the Conflict. Why Hamas? a Useful Idiot would respond. Because they were the aggressor.

It is a fundamental question that said Useful Idiots can never answer. Why can’t they? Who knows. Maybe because on some level they just want Hamas to win. Not the best side to take and history will judge them poorly.

People protest when they think it will have an impact on behavior.

The families of the hostages in Israel are protesting, not for Hamas to throw down their arms and release the hostages, but for their government to negotiate for the safe release of the hostages. Why do you think they’re not calling on Hamas? Because they’re useful idiots? Or because they’re correctly assessing they will have a greater impact on the behavior of their own government?

In the U.S. the protests have been largely effective in forcing elected leaders to confront Israel about their worst abuses. Why should they pivot to trying to change Hamas’ behavior when it’s hugely unlikely to be effective?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The moralest army in the world.
https://www.972mag.com/israel-torture-camp-gaza-detainees/

In early December, images circulated worldwide showing dozens of Palestinian men in the city of Beit Lahiya, in the northern Gaza Strip, who were stripped to their underwear, kneeling or sitting hunched over, then blindfolded and put into the back of Israeli military trucks like cattle. The vast majority of these detainees were civilians with no affiliation to Hamas, Israeli security officials later confirmed, and the men were taken away by the army without notifying their families of the detainees’ whereabouts. Some of them never returned.

+972 Magazine and Local Call spoke with four Palestinian civilians who appeared in these photos, or were arrested near the scene and taken to Israeli military detention centers, where they were held for several days or even weeks before being released back to Gaza. Their testimonies — along with 49 video testimonies published by various Arabic media outlets of Palestinians arrested in similar circumstances in recent weeks in the northern districts of Zeitoun, Jabalia, and Shuja’iya — indicate systematic abuse and torture by Israeli soldiers against all of the detainees, civilians and combatants alike.

According to these testimonies, Israeli soldiers subjected Palestinian detainees to electric shocks, burned their skin with lighters, spat in their mouths, and deprived them of sleep, food, and access to bathrooms until they defecated on themselves. Many were tied to a fence for hours, handcuffed, and blindfolded for most of the day. Some testified to having been beaten all over their bodies and having cigarettes extinguished on their necks or backs. Several people are known to have died as a result of being held in these conditions.
...

According to the testimonies, the Palestinian detainees from Beit Lahiya were loaded onto trucks and taken to a beach. They were left bound there for hours, and another photograph of them was taken and circulated on social media. Lubad recounted how one of the female Israeli soldiers asked several detainees to dance and then filmed them.

The detainees, still in their underwear, were then taken to another beach inside Israel, near the Zikim army base, where, according to their testimonies, soldiers interrogated them and severely beat them. According to media reports, members of IDF Unit 504, a military intelligence corps, carried out these initial interrogations.

Maher recounted his experience to +972 and Local Call: “A soldier asked me, ‘What’s your name?’ and started punching me in the stomach and kicking me. He said, ‘You’ve been in Hamas for two years, tell me how they recruited you.’ I told him I was a student. Two soldiers opened my legs and punched me there and punched me in the face. I started coughing and realized that I wasn’t breathing. I told them, ‘I’m a civilian, I’m a civilian.’

“I remember reaching my hand down my body and feeling something heavy,” Maher continued. “I didn’t realize it was my leg. I stopped feeling my body. I told the soldier that it hurt, and he stopped and asked where; I told him in the stomach, and then he hit me hard in the stomach. They told me to get up. I couldn’t feel my legs and couldn’t walk. Every time I fell, they beat me again. My mouth and nose were bleeding, and I fainted.”

..

Inside the military base, the Palestinians were held in clusters of around 100. According to the testimonies, they were handcuffed and blindfolded the whole time, and permitted to rest only between midnight and 5 a.m.

One of the detainees in each cluster, whom the soldiers chose because he knew Hebrew and was given the title “Shawish” (a slang term for a servant or subordinate), was the only one without a blindfold. The former detainees explained that the soldiers guarding them had green laser flashlights that they used to mark anyone who moved, changed position because of pain, or made a sound. The Shawish brought these detainees to soldiers standing on the other side of the barbed wire fence surrounding the facility, where they were punished.

According to testimonies, the most common punishment was being tied to a fence and having to raise their arms for several hours. Whoever lowered them was taken away by the soldiers and beaten.

The Israeli army confirmed to +972 and Local Call that detainees from Gaza died at the facility. “There are known cases of deaths of detainees held in the detention facility,” the IDF Spokesperson said.

In video testimonies, Palestinians who were released back to Gaza describe cases in which soldiers put out cigarettes on detainees’ bodies and even gave them electric shocks. “I was detained for 18 days,” a young man told Al Jazeera. “[The soldier] sees you falling asleep, takes a lighter, and burns your back. They put out cigarettes on my back a few times. One of the guys [who was blindfolded] said to [the soldier], ‘I want to drink water,’ and the soldier told him to open his mouth and then spat in it.”

Lubad was taken to Jerusalem for interrogation three days later. “The interrogator punched me in the face, and in the end they took me outside and blindfolded me,” he said. “I tried to take the blindfold off, because it hurt, and a soldier kneed me in the forehead, so I left it.

“Half an hour later, they brought another detainee, a university professor,” Lubad continued. “Apparently, he didn’t cooperate with them during the interrogation. They beat him really brutally next to me. They told him, ‘You’re defending Hamas, you’re not answering questions. Get down on your knees, raise your hands.’ I felt two people coming toward me. I thought it was my turn to be beaten and cramped my body to prepare. Someone whispered in my ear: ‘Say dog.’ I said I didn’t understand. He said to me, ‘Say, the day will come for every dog,’” implying death or punishment.

Lubad was then released back to the detention cell. According to him, conditions in Jerusalem were better than in the facility in the south. For the first time, he was not handcuffed or blindfolded. “I was in so much pain and so tired that I fell asleep, and that was it,” he said.

On Dec. 14, a week after he was taken from his home in Beit Lahiya, leaving behind his wife and three children, Lubad was put on a bus back to the Kerem Shalom Crossing between Israel and the Gaza Strip. He counted 14 buses, and hundreds of detainees. He and another witness told +972 and Local Call that soldiers told them to run and said that “whoever looks back, we’ll shoot him.”

Absolutely disgusting and is consistent with first-hand testimony from Palestinian poet, Mosab Abu Toha, who was abducted from Gaza by the IDF, blindfolded and stripped. He was severely beaten and kicked in the face. He was told he was a member of Hamas. He explained he was a teacher who had recently returned to Gaza from the United States and asked them to provide proof, such as a photograph. The IDF soldiers told him HE had to give THEM the proof. Clearly, Israel beats confessions out of its abductees. Thankfully for Mosab, the U.S. State Department intervened on his behalf, and he was returned to Gaza after two days. However, the IDF stole his passport, his wallet (with money and credit cards), and much of his own and his family's clothing. Israel is clearly violating the rules of war.

And for some reason, Twitter calls every image on his feed "potentially sensitive content". Even if it's a snapshot of his book cover.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Protesters Should be Calling For Hamas to Lay Down Its Arms and Return the Hostages.

Do You Think Hamas Would Listen To Protesters?

At least they would know their actions weren't being supported.

So then, why aren’t you out there protesting?

If you think the most important thing is to send Hamas the message that people want them to lay down their arms and release the hostages, and you think protests would help, get yourself to CVS and find some poster board.

Other People are allowed to think there are higher priorities for protest, such as calling for a ceasefire which might, incidentally, save the lives of those hostages.

But if you think protesting has an impact on Hamas, get going!!

I'm not a Palestinian.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Protesters Should be Calling For Hamas to Lay Down Its Arms and Return the Hostages.

Do You Think Hamas Would Listen To Protesters?

At least they would know their actions weren't being supported.

So then, why aren’t you out there protesting?

If you think the most important thing is to send Hamas the message that people want them to lay down their arms and release the hostages, and you think protests would help, get yourself to CVS and find some poster board.

Other People are allowed to think there are higher priorities for protest, such as calling for a ceasefire which might, incidentally, save the lives of those hostages.

But if you think protesting has an impact on Hamas, get going!!

I'm not a Palestinian.

So? If you’re in the U.S. I’m happy to report you have a first amendment right to get your cardboard and call on Hamas to do whatever you want.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Where are the hostages? It’s day 91.

And, where are the calls to release them?

Are you brain damaged? The calls to release the hostages have been coming from day one. But Hamas continues to play games. And one sad truth is that a significant number of the hostages are already dead yet Hamas continues to try and use them as bargaining chips, because they have nothing else.

My guess is that the hostages that a were released are the only ones left alive. Hamas didn’t release 1:1 hostages for prisoners because they didn’t have enough to give. Chances are most of them were killed within 48 hours. That’s the tragic statistic for kidnapping and murder in general, why wouldn’t it hold for this scenario? Children who are kidnapped and murdered are typically killed in the first few hours. Terribly sad but true.

Hostages are kidnapped to get something, not to kill them. If Hamas aimed to kill them, they could have easily done it on Oct 7. It would certainly be easier than dragging them across the border and then feed them, treat them and move them constantly so they don't get killed by Israeli bombs.

The bolded is essentially correct.

But one of the things that terrorists want to "get" is revenge. I hate to say it, but it's likely that some of the remaining hostages have been tortured or abused to such an extent that Hamas cannot release them for political reasons.

They'll simply disappear or Hamas will claim that they were "killed in an Israeli airstrike".

Others may be out of Hamas's direct control at this point--given the number of hostages, Hamas almost certainly had to outsource their captivity to affiliated groups and individuals.

Given the fog of war, I doubt Hamas even has the ability to track all of them down at this point.

+1000
It is so sad/infuriating to think of the fate of the remaining hostages, especially given the reports of abuse suffered by those who were released. How much worse must those remaining be treated for Hamas to decide it would be bad PR for them to let them go and tell their stories?

Exactly. The “keep smiling” videos showed the side of Hamas these poor kidnapped children saw. Sinister and cruel. They would absolutely kill as the “reward” for kidnapping Jews. After all, it’s in Hamas’ charter to do just that.

Why does it matter if it was in Hamas charter? The Quran and prophet literally call for jihad and the murder of nonbelievers.

To be fair, the Old Testament (Deuteronomy 13 and 17, for example) and the Talmud say much the same.

To be fair there are no Talmudists blowing up people globally.

Let's not forget the Haganah, the Irgun, or the Stern Gang. In 1945, Zionist terrorists in Palestine targeted oil refineries, colonial railways, and police boats. They also blew up the King David Hotel and perpetrated several massacres of Palestinian living in their villages, including at Balad al-Sheikh, Saasaa, Deir Yassin, Saliha, and Lydda. Survivors of Deir Yassin described Zionist terrorists raping women, cutting fetuses out of pregnant women, and executing scores of people.

Israel was built on terrorism. What it is doing in the West Bank and Gaza is state-sponsored terrorism.

The fact that this event is from 1945 is revealing. Could you share a similar write up of the 5000+ Islamic terror attacks that have occurred since then? Thanks chief.

Please cite the source of the 5,000+ attacks claim, and then explain why the past 20 years is a relevant range. Surely you're not arguing that genocidal grievances have an expiration date, right? By way of example, if someone murdered your family, everyone in your neighborhood, and everyone you know, and then set up shop in your house 21 years ago, I'm thinking you wouldn't be arguing that you have a case for trying to finally hold them accountable today - right?

Americans are very uneducated about global terror.

And of course genocidal grievances have an expiration date. What a ridiculous claim. Do you welcome an Algonquian descendant to take your property and murder your family?

https://www.fondapol.org/en/study/islamist-terrorist-attacks-in-the-world-1979-2021/

What is ridiculous is this analogy.

Arabs are not a stone age people. There is a good chance that you are accessing the Internet with an Apple product. Apple computers, the iPhone were conceived, developed and brought to world market dominance by an Arab: Steve Jandali ( AKA Steve Jobs )

There is also a fair chance that many people reading this have or will one day need open heart surgery, Grafting of blocked coronary arteries or a stent placement- all of which were conceived of, developed and made the standard of care saving millions of lives world wide by an Arab: Michael Debakey:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_DeBakey

Michael Debakey's village in South Lebanon has been regularly bombed by the Right wing Israeli zealot government . No doubt they have killed many who would have improved our world for the better- as a great many Palestinians would - if they were free from the cruel and tyrannical Israeli occupation and instead able to reach their full human potential.

The Israeli constant attack on Palestinian life for the past 80 years has cost the world generations of would be innovators, scientists, doctors, writers, poets.... it is an obscene crime

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Protesters Should be Calling For Hamas to Lay Down Its Arms and Return the Hostages.

Do You Think Hamas Would Listen To Protesters?

No need to Mock My Style, please, to make your argument.

Whether Hamas listens or not is not the Full Point. The Full Point is that a call for Hamas to Lay Down Its Arms and Release the Hostages is the Morally Correct Stance to Take. Better, at lease than protesting as what is, in effect, one of Hamas’ Useful Idiots.

Then Go Get A Poster And Start Protesting.

Yes, engaging with Hamas’ Useful Idiots protesting world wide as to why the are not calling on Hamas to Surrender and Release the Hostages sounds like a prudent idea. I have debated Israel haters about this. Hamas’ Surrendering is the most straightforward and expeditious path to End the Conflict. Why Hamas? a Useful Idiot would respond. Because they were the aggressor.

It is a fundamental question that said Useful Idiots can never answer. Why can’t they? Who knows. Maybe because on some level they just want Hamas to win. Not the best side to take and history will judge them poorly.

Apparently, everyone is naive and idiotic except those deep thinkers supporting an apartheid state that subsists on welfare. OK, then ...

Extremely weak sauce. There is a wrongdoer here snd it is called Hamas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Protesters Should be Calling For Hamas to Lay Down Its Arms and Return the Hostages.

Do You Think Hamas Would Listen To Protesters?

No need to Mock My Style, please, to make your argument.

Whether Hamas listens or not is not the Full Point. The Full Point is that a call for Hamas to Lay Down Its Arms and Release the Hostages is the Morally Correct Stance to Take. Better, at lease than protesting as what is, in effect, one of Hamas’ Useful Idiots.

Then Go Get A Poster And Start Protesting.

Yes, engaging with Hamas’ Useful Idiots protesting world wide as to why the are not calling on Hamas to Surrender and Release the Hostages sounds like a prudent idea. I have debated Israel haters about this. Hamas’ Surrendering is the most straightforward and expeditious path to End the Conflict. Why Hamas? a Useful Idiot would respond. Because they were the aggressor.

It is a fundamental question that said Useful Idiots can never answer. Why can’t they? Who knows. Maybe because on some level they just want Hamas to win. Not the best side to take and history will judge them poorly.

People protest when they think it will have an impact on behavior.

The families of the hostages in Israel are protesting, not for Hamas to throw down their arms and release the hostages, but for their government to negotiate for the safe release of the hostages. Why do you think they’re not calling on Hamas? Because they’re useful idiots? Or because they’re correctly assessing they will have a greater impact on the behavior of their own government?

In the U.S. the protests have been largely effective in forcing elected leaders to confront Israel about their worst abuses. Why should they pivot to trying to change Hamas’ behavior when it’s hugely unlikely to be effective?

Huh?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The moralest army in the world.
https://www.972mag.com/israel-torture-camp-gaza-detainees/

In early December, images circulated worldwide showing dozens of Palestinian men in the city of Beit Lahiya, in the northern Gaza Strip, who were stripped to their underwear, kneeling or sitting hunched over, then blindfolded and put into the back of Israeli military trucks like cattle. The vast majority of these detainees were civilians with no affiliation to Hamas, Israeli security officials later confirmed, and the men were taken away by the army without notifying their families of the detainees’ whereabouts. Some of them never returned.

+972 Magazine and Local Call spoke with four Palestinian civilians who appeared in these photos, or were arrested near the scene and taken to Israeli military detention centers, where they were held for several days or even weeks before being released back to Gaza. Their testimonies — along with 49 video testimonies published by various Arabic media outlets of Palestinians arrested in similar circumstances in recent weeks in the northern districts of Zeitoun, Jabalia, and Shuja’iya — indicate systematic abuse and torture by Israeli soldiers against all of the detainees, civilians and combatants alike.

According to these testimonies, Israeli soldiers subjected Palestinian detainees to electric shocks, burned their skin with lighters, spat in their mouths, and deprived them of sleep, food, and access to bathrooms until they defecated on themselves. Many were tied to a fence for hours, handcuffed, and blindfolded for most of the day. Some testified to having been beaten all over their bodies and having cigarettes extinguished on their necks or backs. Several people are known to have died as a result of being held in these conditions.
...

According to the testimonies, the Palestinian detainees from Beit Lahiya were loaded onto trucks and taken to a beach. They were left bound there for hours, and another photograph of them was taken and circulated on social media. Lubad recounted how one of the female Israeli soldiers asked several detainees to dance and then filmed them.

The detainees, still in their underwear, were then taken to another beach inside Israel, near the Zikim army base, where, according to their testimonies, soldiers interrogated them and severely beat them. According to media reports, members of IDF Unit 504, a military intelligence corps, carried out these initial interrogations.

Maher recounted his experience to +972 and Local Call: “A soldier asked me, ‘What’s your name?’ and started punching me in the stomach and kicking me. He said, ‘You’ve been in Hamas for two years, tell me how they recruited you.’ I told him I was a student. Two soldiers opened my legs and punched me there and punched me in the face. I started coughing and realized that I wasn’t breathing. I told them, ‘I’m a civilian, I’m a civilian.’

“I remember reaching my hand down my body and feeling something heavy,” Maher continued. “I didn’t realize it was my leg. I stopped feeling my body. I told the soldier that it hurt, and he stopped and asked where; I told him in the stomach, and then he hit me hard in the stomach. They told me to get up. I couldn’t feel my legs and couldn’t walk. Every time I fell, they beat me again. My mouth and nose were bleeding, and I fainted.”

..

Inside the military base, the Palestinians were held in clusters of around 100. According to the testimonies, they were handcuffed and blindfolded the whole time, and permitted to rest only between midnight and 5 a.m.

One of the detainees in each cluster, whom the soldiers chose because he knew Hebrew and was given the title “Shawish” (a slang term for a servant or subordinate), was the only one without a blindfold. The former detainees explained that the soldiers guarding them had green laser flashlights that they used to mark anyone who moved, changed position because of pain, or made a sound. The Shawish brought these detainees to soldiers standing on the other side of the barbed wire fence surrounding the facility, where they were punished.

According to testimonies, the most common punishment was being tied to a fence and having to raise their arms for several hours. Whoever lowered them was taken away by the soldiers and beaten.

The Israeli army confirmed to +972 and Local Call that detainees from Gaza died at the facility. “There are known cases of deaths of detainees held in the detention facility,” the IDF Spokesperson said.

In video testimonies, Palestinians who were released back to Gaza describe cases in which soldiers put out cigarettes on detainees’ bodies and even gave them electric shocks. “I was detained for 18 days,” a young man told Al Jazeera. “[The soldier] sees you falling asleep, takes a lighter, and burns your back. They put out cigarettes on my back a few times. One of the guys [who was blindfolded] said to [the soldier], ‘I want to drink water,’ and the soldier told him to open his mouth and then spat in it.”

Lubad was taken to Jerusalem for interrogation three days later. “The interrogator punched me in the face, and in the end they took me outside and blindfolded me,” he said. “I tried to take the blindfold off, because it hurt, and a soldier kneed me in the forehead, so I left it.

“Half an hour later, they brought another detainee, a university professor,” Lubad continued. “Apparently, he didn’t cooperate with them during the interrogation. They beat him really brutally next to me. They told him, ‘You’re defending Hamas, you’re not answering questions. Get down on your knees, raise your hands.’ I felt two people coming toward me. I thought it was my turn to be beaten and cramped my body to prepare. Someone whispered in my ear: ‘Say dog.’ I said I didn’t understand. He said to me, ‘Say, the day will come for every dog,’” implying death or punishment.

Lubad was then released back to the detention cell. According to him, conditions in Jerusalem were better than in the facility in the south. For the first time, he was not handcuffed or blindfolded. “I was in so much pain and so tired that I fell asleep, and that was it,” he said.

On Dec. 14, a week after he was taken from his home in Beit Lahiya, leaving behind his wife and three children, Lubad was put on a bus back to the Kerem Shalom Crossing between Israel and the Gaza Strip. He counted 14 buses, and hundreds of detainees. He and another witness told +972 and Local Call that soldiers told them to run and said that “whoever looks back, we’ll shoot him.”

Irredeemable animals. Honestly, I don't care to hear another word about the holocaust, 10/7, or students cowering in libraries while any of these atrocities are being defended by anyone.

Why so many barbaric acts in that region?

Fairytales bring out the worst in people.

Wow, what a smart, nuanced take!

Oh, you wanted a more direct explanation? How about this:

When you have a naturally unpleasant, cantankerous group of immigrants who have brainwashed themselves into believing that that they are special and entitled to the property of others, hostilities with those they steal from inevitably ensues.

Better ... ?

Nope. Just as stupid.

[Anonymous]

Those who argue that Jews do not a historical connection to Israel are wrong. They were there before their opponents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Those who argue that Jews do not a historical connection to Israel are wrong. They were there before their opponents.

Genetic testing says, uhhh bullshit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The moralest army in the world.
https://www.972mag.com/israel-torture-camp-gaza-detainees/

In early December, images circulated worldwide showing dozens of Palestinian men in the city of Beit Lahiya, in the northern Gaza Strip, who were stripped to their underwear, kneeling or sitting hunched over, then blindfolded and put into the back of Israeli military trucks like cattle. The vast majority of these detainees were civilians with no affiliation to Hamas, Israeli security officials later confirmed, and the men were taken away by the army without notifying their families of the detainees’ whereabouts. Some of them never returned.

+972 Magazine and Local Call spoke with four Palestinian civilians who appeared in these photos, or were arrested near the scene and taken to Israeli military detention centers, where they were held for several days or even weeks before being released back to Gaza. Their testimonies — along with 49 video testimonies published by various Arabic media outlets of Palestinians arrested in similar circumstances in recent weeks in the northern districts of Zeitoun, Jabalia, and Shuja’iya — indicate systematic abuse and torture by Israeli soldiers against all of the detainees, civilians and combatants alike.

According to these testimonies, Israeli soldiers subjected Palestinian detainees to electric shocks, burned their skin with lighters, spat in their mouths, and deprived them of sleep, food, and access to bathrooms until they defecated on themselves. Many were tied to a fence for hours, handcuffed, and blindfolded for most of the day. Some testified to having been beaten all over their bodies and having cigarettes extinguished on their necks or backs. Several people are known to have died as a result of being held in these conditions.
...

According to the testimonies, the Palestinian detainees from Beit Lahiya were loaded onto trucks and taken to a beach. They were left bound there for hours, and another photograph of them was taken and circulated on social media. Lubad recounted how one of the female Israeli soldiers asked several detainees to dance and then filmed them.

The detainees, still in their underwear, were then taken to another beach inside Israel, near the Zikim army base, where, according to their testimonies, soldiers interrogated them and severely beat them. According to media reports, members of IDF Unit 504, a military intelligence corps, carried out these initial interrogations.

Maher recounted his experience to +972 and Local Call: “A soldier asked me, ‘What’s your name?’ and started punching me in the stomach and kicking me. He said, ‘You’ve been in Hamas for two years, tell me how they recruited you.’ I told him I was a student. Two soldiers opened my legs and punched me there and punched me in the face. I started coughing and realized that I wasn’t breathing. I told them, ‘I’m a civilian, I’m a civilian.’

“I remember reaching my hand down my body and feeling something heavy,” Maher continued. “I didn’t realize it was my leg. I stopped feeling my body. I told the soldier that it hurt, and he stopped and asked where; I told him in the stomach, and then he hit me hard in the stomach. They told me to get up. I couldn’t feel my legs and couldn’t walk. Every time I fell, they beat me again. My mouth and nose were bleeding, and I fainted.”

..

Inside the military base, the Palestinians were held in clusters of around 100. According to the testimonies, they were handcuffed and blindfolded the whole time, and permitted to rest only between midnight and 5 a.m.

One of the detainees in each cluster, whom the soldiers chose because he knew Hebrew and was given the title “Shawish” (a slang term for a servant or subordinate), was the only one without a blindfold. The former detainees explained that the soldiers guarding them had green laser flashlights that they used to mark anyone who moved, changed position because of pain, or made a sound. The Shawish brought these detainees to soldiers standing on the other side of the barbed wire fence surrounding the facility, where they were punished.

According to testimonies, the most common punishment was being tied to a fence and having to raise their arms for several hours. Whoever lowered them was taken away by the soldiers and beaten.

The Israeli army confirmed to +972 and Local Call that detainees from Gaza died at the facility. “There are known cases of deaths of detainees held in the detention facility,” the IDF Spokesperson said.

In video testimonies, Palestinians who were released back to Gaza describe cases in which soldiers put out cigarettes on detainees’ bodies and even gave them electric shocks. “I was detained for 18 days,” a young man told Al Jazeera. “[The soldier] sees you falling asleep, takes a lighter, and burns your back. They put out cigarettes on my back a few times. One of the guys [who was blindfolded] said to [the soldier], ‘I want to drink water,’ and the soldier told him to open his mouth and then spat in it.”

Lubad was taken to Jerusalem for interrogation three days later. “The interrogator punched me in the face, and in the end they took me outside and blindfolded me,” he said. “I tried to take the blindfold off, because it hurt, and a soldier kneed me in the forehead, so I left it.

“Half an hour later, they brought another detainee, a university professor,” Lubad continued. “Apparently, he didn’t cooperate with them during the interrogation. They beat him really brutally next to me. They told him, ‘You’re defending Hamas, you’re not answering questions. Get down on your knees, raise your hands.’ I felt two people coming toward me. I thought it was my turn to be beaten and cramped my body to prepare. Someone whispered in my ear: ‘Say dog.’ I said I didn’t understand. He said to me, ‘Say, the day will come for every dog,’” implying death or punishment.

Lubad was then released back to the detention cell. According to him, conditions in Jerusalem were better than in the facility in the south. For the first time, he was not handcuffed or blindfolded. “I was in so much pain and so tired that I fell asleep, and that was it,” he said.

On Dec. 14, a week after he was taken from his home in Beit Lahiya, leaving behind his wife and three children, Lubad was put on a bus back to the Kerem Shalom Crossing between Israel and the Gaza Strip. He counted 14 buses, and hundreds of detainees. He and another witness told +972 and Local Call that soldiers told them to run and said that “whoever looks back, we’ll shoot him.”

Irredeemable animals. Honestly, I don't care to hear another word about the holocaust, 10/7, or students cowering in libraries while any of these atrocities are being defended by anyone.

Why so many barbaric acts in that region?

Fairytales bring out the worst in people.

Wow, what a smart, nuanced take!

Oh, you wanted a more direct explanation? How about this:

When you have a naturally unpleasant, cantankerous group of immigrants who have brainwashed themselves into believing that that they are special and entitled to the property of others, hostilities with those they steal from inevitably ensues.

Better ... ?

Nope. Just as stupid.

Of course, but who can possibly compete with your magnificent intellect?!

[Anonymous]

The worst impacts of war go beyond the intended result of the warring parties- neither of whom ever gets everything they wanted, btw. The negative impacts lie in the unintended, unanticipated consequences that the zealots who go to war never anticipated- or planned for.

For example, the outcome of the Versailles " peace treaty" was WW II and the outcome of WWII was the nuclear bomb and the real potential for mass extinction of life on Earth.

The outcome of Nixon's " war on Communism in SE Asia" was the rise of Pol Pot and the massacre of 2 million Cambodians and hundreds of thousands of Laos and Vietnamese, and the end of the " war on poverty" in the US

The outcome of arming the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan to fight the Russians was the rise of OBL and Al Qaida as well as the Taliban

The outcome of the US invasion of Iraq was the formation of ISIS.

And what has Israel's war on the Palestinian people, the Lebanese, the Jordanians, the Egyptians and the Iranians...essentially all of their neighbors lead to for the world: well, imagine a world that since 1960's had no plane hijackings, no suicide bombings, imagine no war in Lebanon from 1974-1995, imagine 9/11 never having had happened... imagine that Pegasus technology did not exist and that we all lived in a world where spyware wasn't being used to kill journalists, political leaders, health workers and blackmail politicians.

Imagine instead, a peaceful Middle East with a multi-ethnic state of Palestine in which Druze, Arabs or both Christian and Muslim backgrounds lived together with Jewish people like they had for thousands of years.

Take a deep breath and just think what the world could do with the trillions of dollars of wealth that would not have been wasted on murder, cruelty and exploitation and instead used for science, research, sustainable use and saving the environment.

That is a world without the R wing Likud zealots who have been waging war against the entire Middle East for the past 40 years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Protesters Should be Calling For Hamas to Lay Down Its Arms and Return the Hostages.

Do You Think Hamas Would Listen To Protesters?

No need to Mock My Style, please, to make your argument.

Whether Hamas listens or not is not the Full Point. The Full Point is that a call for Hamas to Lay Down Its Arms and Release the Hostages is the Morally Correct Stance to Take. Better, at lease than protesting as what is, in effect, one of Hamas’ Useful Idiots.

Then Go Get A Poster And Start Protesting.

Yes, engaging with Hamas’ Useful Idiots protesting world wide as to why the are not calling on Hamas to Surrender and Release the Hostages sounds like a prudent idea. I have debated Israel haters about this. Hamas’ Surrendering is the most straightforward and expeditious path to End the Conflict. Why Hamas? a Useful Idiot would respond. Because they were the aggressor.

It is a fundamental question that said Useful Idiots can never answer. Why can’t they? Who knows. Maybe because on some level they just want Hamas to win. Not the best side to take and history will judge them poorly.

People protest when they think it will have an impact on behavior.

The families of the hostages in Israel are protesting, not for Hamas to throw down their arms and release the hostages, but for their government to negotiate for the safe release of the hostages. Why do you think they’re not calling on Hamas? Because they’re useful idiots? Or because they’re correctly assessing they will have a greater impact on the behavior of their own government?

In the U.S. the protests have been largely effective in forcing elected leaders to confront Israel about their worst abuses. Why should they pivot to trying to change Hamas’ behavior when it’s hugely unlikely to be effective?

Huh?

Which bit confused you?