Middle and high school on Capitol Hill

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eastern's IBD pass rate average points totals have been a little lower than Banneker's to date, but they're only about to graduate their third class of IBD students, with a dozen students in a cohort.

Enough of this PC silliness. Controlling for race and class alone doesn't get you a high-performing school. In an urban center, bona fide selective admissions combined with decent facilities, strong teaching and leadership,and a diverse student body (with many high SES families of all races involved) gets you a high-performing school.

Yes, DCI will be offering International Baccalaureate Diploma studies, but only IBD lite. IBD studies won't be required at DCI, so they won't have a critical mass of students to offer many Higher Level (1-2 years past AP) classes. Reading the tea leaves, I predict that their pass total will be in the high 20s for the first five years or so they graduate students. If you're shooting for the stars in college admissions (Ivies, Little Ivies, Georgetown, Stanford, military academies, Duke etc.) and you're white or Asian, you're going to need a points total of 40+.

I'm the PP who's years away. Thank you for posting and explaining the stats. I'm familiar with the AP system from my own education but am learning about IB and watching closely what happens with the various local programs.

The other thing to consider is that Eastern and Banneker offer both AP and IB courses.

DCI, on the other hand, will only offer IB.

[Anonymous]

I really don't understand all of the people who think that DC couldn't have a TJ because of economies of scale and/or that posters are overestimating their own children's likely performance on test-in exams... My kid's private pre-preschool (on the Hill) probably has 1.75 Ivy league degrees per parental couple on average. Yes, some of these kids won't end up as high achieving as their parents; but most/many will. Yes, many of these people will flee the city; but they wouldn't if there was a TJ. I just don't believe for a second that a test-in program couldn't succeed here. There is *such* brain attraction. You don't need the numbers you would if you were talking about some random state with a random assortment of jobs.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I've been interviewing Banneker students for my Ivy for 15 years. The odd student gets in. I speak to the school's IB Diploma coordinator from time to time, mainly to ask how students are scoring. To my knowledge, 6s and 7s on IBP exams are really rare at Banneker. Their IBD pass points total hovers in the mid 20s (on a pass scale of 24-45 points) and a good third of the kids who pursue the IBD fail to pass. Their model is clearly to provide a springboard for low SES AA and Latino students to reach top colleges.

No, Banneker does not teach Cal BC, or, for that matter, Physics 2 (called Physics BC until 2014), Physics C: Electronics and Magnetism, or Physics C: Mechanics. Moreover, they haven't produced a National Merit Scholarship Semifinalist in a decade. If you're high SES and your student is white or Asian, top Banneker STEM scores are really unlikely to fly at top colleges. Perhaps you could supplement to bridge the gap.

why would you assume your "stem kid" would do so much differently at Banneker than Wilson (leaving aside the course offerings?) I feel like people are constantly moving the goal posts. "My sweet, book hungry kid can't possibly go to class with all those kids at Jefferson who have 20% proficiency rates and come from the projects!!"

"what about banneker which is full of bright hard working kids with great results?"

"they never had a national merit finalist!!"

just say it.

My low income, predominantly African American high school in California offered AP Calculus BC and AP Chemistry 30 years ago. If you are from a college educated home, top colleges expect 5s on those tests or scores of 6/7 on the analogous IB exams.

We have the word of one person that interviews some Banneker kids. Nobody really knows what these kids are scoring. We do know they are killing PARCC and going to top colleges. What else is there to want to know? In every measure, it's a better school than Latin, yet there are fewer than 5 white kids that want to go there.

Actually, the International Baccalaureate Program in Geneva keeps stats on average points totals by certified HS. You can contact them and dig in their on-line archives to find the data. Banneker's IBD points totals are in the mid 20s, sort of a C-. Meanwhile, Richard Montgomery HS in Rockville, and other Metro area programs, posts point totals in the high 30s, an A-. The HS PARCC is just testing 8th and 9th grade math, and few low SES families opt out of state standardized tests (while many high SES kids have been blowing off the PARCC), helping explain why the Banneker students are "killing it." Many Banneker kids go to top colleges partly because low SES AA students with decent SAT scores (600s) are in huge demand at such colleges. They don't need to score in the 700s like whites and Asians who aren't recruited athletes to access the same colleges. I'm not saying that Banneker's a bad school, but whites seldom attend historically black high schools or colleges for obvious reasons. To attract whites, Banneker will need to change and do outreach.

Thanks for those IB stats. We're years away and I'm just learning. Do you have any idea what the scores are for the Eastern HS IB program? And sorry this is off track, but are there other IB HSes in DC?

DCI is planning to offer the IB high school program. They only have 9th graders at this point, and their program hasn't yet been approved by the IBO.

I think that comparing the IBD scores of Banneker and Richard Montgomery is meaningless unless you control for race and SES. Same as for the PARCC, SAT scores and AP passing rates.

The question we should be asking is how the Banneker scores on all of the above compare to similar students at SWW, Wilson, Latin, BASIS and all the rest.

I don't think that's the question really, except in a thread about how to objectively rank DC high schools. There's no question that Banneker is a high school with a TON going for it. So the issue is why, in a city with a perceived lack of options for "advanced" students, Banneker is never in the mix. At that point people will try to downplay Banneker and the question morphs from "where can a student get a rigorous education?" to "MY CHILD CANNOT THRIVE OUTSIDE OF A SCHOOL THAT ALREADY HAS A CLASS FULL OF 5s IN CALC BC". Basically they won't be happy unless there's something that is tailor made for them from the outset.

I guess I'm not getting your point. I think what folks want for their kids is a school with a good set of equally strong(er) peers - I want my kid to be challenged by classmates, not the big fish in a small pond (b/c when s/he gets to college it would be much bigger shock to the system). And if Banneker kids' SATs are (seemingly) pretty low, that appears to be evidence that the peer group is not (very) strong enough.

Right, you're moving the goal posts. At first the discussion is about having "a strong cohort" as the reason Jefferson will never work. Next, the definition of "strong cohort" gets changed to "super duper advanced students." OK fine, so if the only school that will work for you in DC is a school where there are THEE BEST students, then you should probably go private or to VA and try for TJ. This is a discussion about how to create reasonable options for kids in DC, but somehow the options that involve a majority of black students always get discounted. Also I'm guessing that the Banneker kids strengths and eventual success has a LOT more to it than their SAT scores. There are many more personal & moral characteristics that probably animate the school than that.

This isn't moving the goalposts. A set of 5s on rigorous APs has been the standard for top colleges for decades. Most schools in Fairfax, Arlington, MCPS etc offers these classes and have students that can meet these standards with the teaching on offer. Wilson and Walls do as well. I don't know that Latin can meet these standards, so I don't consider it to be a viable option.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I really don't understand all of the people who think that DC couldn't have a TJ because of economies of scale and/or that posters are overestimating their own children's likely performance on test-in exams... My kid's private pre-preschool (on the Hill) probably has 1.75 Ivy league degrees per parental couple on average. Yes, some of these kids won't end up as high achieving as their parents; but most/many will. Yes, many of these people will flee the city; but they wouldn't if there was a TJ. I just don't believe for a second that a test-in program couldn't succeed here. There is *such* brain attraction. You don't need the numbers you would if you were talking about some random state with a random assortment of jobs.

I'm the person who responded about economies of scale.

Maybe I was being more literal than you. A big part of TJ's strength is the regional base for funding and applicants as well as its size -- 1800 students (roughly the same size as Wilson, all interested in pursuing science, math and technology). That's how it has great facilities, many extra-curricular offerings, sports and a strong faculty.

Finally, admissions to TJ isn't just about the admissions test. Teacher recommendations, grades and an essay are also part of the process.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been interviewing Banneker students for my Ivy for 15 years. The odd student gets in. I speak to the school's IB Diploma coordinator from time to time, mainly to ask how students are scoring. To my knowledge, 6s and 7s on IBP exams are really rare at Banneker. Their IBD pass points total hovers in the mid 20s (on a pass scale of 24-45 points) and a good third of the kids who pursue the IBD fail to pass. Their model is clearly to provide a springboard for low SES AA and Latino students to reach top colleges.

No, Banneker does not teach Cal BC, or, for that matter, Physics 2 (called Physics BC until 2014), Physics C: Electronics and Magnetism, or Physics C: Mechanics. Moreover, they haven't produced a National Merit Scholarship Semifinalist in a decade. If you're high SES and your student is white or Asian, top Banneker STEM scores are really unlikely to fly at top colleges. Perhaps you could supplement to bridge the gap.

why would you assume your "stem kid" would do so much differently at Banneker than Wilson (leaving aside the course offerings?) I feel like people are constantly moving the goal posts. "My sweet, book hungry kid can't possibly go to class with all those kids at Jefferson who have 20% proficiency rates and come from the projects!!"

"what about banneker which is full of bright hard working kids with great results?"

"they never had a national merit finalist!!"

just say it.

My low income, predominantly African American high school in California offered AP Calculus BC and AP Chemistry 30 years ago. If you are from a college educated home, top colleges expect 5s on those tests or scores of 6/7 on the analogous IB exams.

We have the word of one person that interviews some Banneker kids. Nobody really knows what these kids are scoring. We do know they are killing PARCC and going to top colleges. What else is there to want to know? In every measure, it's a better school than Latin, yet there are fewer than 5 white kids that want to go there.

Actually, the International Baccalaureate Program in Geneva keeps stats on average points totals by certified HS. You can contact them and dig in their on-line archives to find the data. Banneker's IBD points totals are in the mid 20s, sort of a C-. Meanwhile, Richard Montgomery HS in Rockville, and other Metro area programs, posts point totals in the high 30s, an A-. The HS PARCC is just testing 8th and 9th grade math, and few low SES families opt out of state standardized tests (while many high SES kids have been blowing off the PARCC), helping explain why the Banneker students are "killing it." Many Banneker kids go to top colleges partly because low SES AA students with decent SAT scores (600s) are in huge demand at such colleges. They don't need to score in the 700s like whites and Asians who aren't recruited athletes to access the same colleges. I'm not saying that Banneker's a bad school, but whites seldom attend historically black high schools or colleges for obvious reasons. To attract whites, Banneker will need to change and do outreach.

Thanks for those IB stats. We're years away and I'm just learning. Do you have any idea what the scores are for the Eastern HS IB program? And sorry this is off track, but are there other IB HSes in DC?

DCI is planning to offer the IB high school program. They only have 9th graders at this point, and their program hasn't yet been approved by the IBO.

I think that comparing the IBD scores of Banneker and Richard Montgomery is meaningless unless you control for race and SES. Same as for the PARCC, SAT scores and AP passing rates.

The question we should be asking is how the Banneker scores on all of the above compare to similar students at SWW, Wilson, Latin, BASIS and all the rest.

I don't think that's the question really, except in a thread about how to objectively rank DC high schools. There's no question that Banneker is a high school with a TON going for it. So the issue is why, in a city with a perceived lack of options for "advanced" students, Banneker is never in the mix. At that point people will try to downplay Banneker and the question morphs from "where can a student get a rigorous education?" to "MY CHILD CANNOT THRIVE OUTSIDE OF A SCHOOL THAT ALREADY HAS A CLASS FULL OF 5s IN CALC BC". Basically they won't be happy unless there's something that is tailor made for them from the outset.

I guess I'm not getting your point. I think what folks want for their kids is a school with a good set of equally strong(er) peers - I want my kid to be challenged by classmates, not the big fish in a small pond (b/c when s/he gets to college it would be much bigger shock to the system). And if Banneker kids' SATs are (seemingly) pretty low, that appears to be evidence that the peer group is not (very) strong enough.

Right, you're moving the goal posts. At first the discussion is about having "a strong cohort" as the reason Jefferson will never work. Next, the definition of "strong cohort" gets changed to "super duper advanced students." OK fine, so if the only school that will work for you in DC is a school where there are THEE BEST students, then you should probably go private or to VA and try for TJ. This is a discussion about how to create reasonable options for kids in DC, but somehow the options that involve a majority of black students always get discounted. Also I'm guessing that the Banneker kids strengths and eventual success has a LOT more to it than their SAT scores. There are many more personal & moral characteristics that probably animate the school than that.

This isn't moving the goalposts. A set of 5s on rigorous APs has been the standard for top colleges for decades. Most schools in Fairfax, Arlington, MCPS etc offers these classes and have students that can meet these standards with the teaching on offer. Wilson and Walls do as well. I don't know that Latin can meet these standards, so I don't consider it to be a viable option.

Yes, it is moving the goalposts for this discussion. The premise of this discussion was not: where does my child need to go to school to get all 5s on the AP exam? It was: how can we add to the decent middle an dhigh school options for Hill families? With average Hill families considering Basis, Latin, SH (some), Walls, and Deal as viable options, it's utterly ridiculous to say "Oh NO, not Banneker, how ever would my child get all 5s on the AP exam there?" And there's mission-creep when describing what would theoretically be desired for a Jefferson to work: first it's "a solid cohort of Brent students and a responsive administration that will allow a gifted/accelerated curriculim" which somehow becomes "must be test-in like TJ or it's totally unusable!"

[Anonymous]

Maybe Banneker could start doing some outreach to increase interest. Might help to increase diversity of school so that it better reflects the current demographics of DC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eastern's IBD pass rate average points totals have been a little lower than Banneker's to date, but they're only about to graduate their third class of IBD students, with a dozen students in a cohort.

Enough of this PC silliness. Controlling for race and class alone doesn't get you a high-performing school. In an urban center, bona fide selective admissions combined with decent facilities, strong teaching and leadership,and a diverse student body (with many high SES families of all races involved) gets you a high-performing school.

Yes, DCI will be offering International Baccalaureate Diploma studies, but only IBD lite. IBD studies won't be required at DCI, so they won't have a critical mass of students to offer many Higher Level (1-2 years past AP) classes. Reading the tea leaves, I predict that their pass total will be in the high 20s for the first five years or so they graduate students. If you're shooting for the stars in college admissions (Ivies, Little Ivies, Georgetown, Stanford, military academies, Duke etc.) and you're white or Asian, you're going to need a points total of 40+.

I'm the PP who's years away. Thank you for posting and explaining the stats. I'm familiar with the AP system from my own education but am learning about IB and watching closely what happens with the various local programs.

The other thing to consider is that Eastern and Banneker offer both AP and IB courses.

DCI, on the other hand, will only offer IB.

The IB program will amply prepare you for the AP exam. But the IB diploma programme is far, far superior to AP offerings.

[Anonymous]

Re IB vs AP -- that is true. But it depends on what colleges the student is applying to. Not all colleges give credit to IB. There may well be strong students at Banneker who aren't taking IB exams for personal, strategic reasons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Re IB vs AP -- that is true. But it depends on what colleges the student is applying to. Not all colleges give credit to IB. There may well be strong students at Banneker who aren't taking IB exams for personal, strategic reasons.

Please list which colleges don't give credit to IB.

I know of no college that gives weight to AP and not IB.

[Anonymous]

I worked in the admissions office of my highly-selective college for four years. They want students who can handle the academics, but, honestly, those kids are a dime a dozen. Having interesting life experiences and learning from them (including writing about them in a compelling manner) counted for a tremendous amount and was what made admission officers remember your application. They did not just tally the number of AP classes you took. Maybe things have changed and maybe this college is atypical, but the obsession with APs and IB may be unproductive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I worked in the admissions office of my highly-selective college for four years. They want students who can handle the academics, but, honestly, those kids are a dime a dozen. Having interesting life experiences and learning from them (including writing about them in a compelling manner) counted for a tremendous amount and was what made admission officers remember your application. They did not just tally the number of AP classes you took. Maybe things have changed and maybe this college is atypical, but the obsession with APs and IB may be unproductive.

I also worked in the admissions office of my alma mater, an Ivy, just a few years ago. What I observed is that admissions officers work off an unofficial baseline for academics, and the rest, as you point out, was what made them remember you application. The baseline for high SES whites and Asians seemed to be half a dozen (or more) AP tests with scores of 4s and 5s, an IBD points total of at least 40, SATs in the 700s (regular SAT and two subject tests), and a high GPA (but not necessarily sky high for one's high school - valedictorians didn't necessarily fare better than other applicants in the top 15% of their class). If applicants didn't meet the baseline, their application essays and alumni interview reports were not read. Their applications were promptly tossed into a digital "first round rejection" pile. Only applicants who'd met the baseline advanced to the "second read" stage, where essays were in fact read.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eastern's IBD pass rate average points totals have been a little lower than Banneker's to date, but they're only about to graduate their third class of IBD students, with a dozen students in a cohort.

Enough of this PC silliness. Controlling for race and class alone doesn't get you a high-performing school. In an urban center, bona fide selective admissions combined with decent facilities, strong teaching and leadership,and a diverse student body (with many high SES families of all races involved) gets you a high-performing school.

Yes, DCI will be offering International Baccalaureate Diploma studies, but only IBD lite. IBD studies won't be required at DCI, so they won't have a critical mass of students to offer many Higher Level (1-2 years past AP) classes. Reading the tea leaves, I predict that their pass total will be in the high 20s for the first five years or so they graduate students. If you're shooting for the stars in college admissions (Ivies, Little Ivies, Georgetown, Stanford, military academies, Duke etc.) and you're white or Asian, you're going to need a points total of 40+.

I'm the PP who's years away. Thank you for posting and explaining the stats. I'm familiar with the AP system from my own education but am learning about IB and watching closely what happens with the various local programs.

The other thing to consider is that Eastern and Banneker offer both AP and IB courses.

DCI, on the other hand, will only offer IB.

The IB program will amply prepare you for the AP exam. But the IB diploma programme is far, far superior to AP offerings.

This is true; many IBD students take both the relevant AP and the IBD exams. An IBD student can only take up to 3 (of 6) IB subject exams in June of junior year, but can take as many AP exams as they want (and colleges like to see standardized test scores). IBD is superior to AP offerings in the sense that it's more modern and comprehensive, with the Extended Essay, Community Action and Service requirement, and the Theory of Knowledge class giving students the opportunity to pursue inter-disciplinary work and explore cross-cutting themes in fields of inquiry at the HS level. This is great prep for college work in the humanities and/or sciences. But a weak IDP program, like those in DC public schools, isn't a good as a strong AP program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eastern's IBD pass rate average points totals have been a little lower than Banneker's to date, but they're only about to graduate their third class of IBD students, with a dozen students in a cohort.

Enough of this PC silliness. Controlling for race and class alone doesn't get you a high-performing school. In an urban center, bona fide selective admissions combined with decent facilities, strong teaching and leadership,and a diverse student body (with many high SES families of all races involved) gets you a high-performing school.

Yes, DCI will be offering International Baccalaureate Diploma studies, but only IBD lite. IBD studies won't be required at DCI, so they won't have a critical mass of students to offer many Higher Level (1-2 years past AP) classes. Reading the tea leaves, I predict that their pass total will be in the high 20s for the first five years or so they graduate students. If you're shooting for the stars in college admissions (Ivies, Little Ivies, Georgetown, Stanford, military academies, Duke etc.) and you're white or Asian, you're going to need a points total of 40+.

I'm the PP who's years away. Thank you for posting and explaining the stats. I'm familiar with the AP system from my own education but am learning about IB and watching closely what happens with the various local programs.

The other thing to consider is that Eastern and Banneker offer both AP and IB courses.

DCI, on the other hand, will only offer IB.

The problem definitely isn't that DCI will only offer IB courses, it's that their IB courses are unlikely to be terribly rigorous (because so many of their students aren't really "full" IBD material). If a Hill kid can score 6s and 7s on IBD exams at either the Standard or Higher Levels, 4s and 5s on corresponding APs come easily. Go visit one of the MoCo of Fairfax IBD programs and chat with their in-house IB Coordinator if you want to learn more. These programs run IBD open houses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Maybe Banneker could start doing some outreach to increase interest. Might help to increase diversity of school so that it better reflects the current demographics of DC.

Yeah, Banneker should do outreach like SWW and Latin to get white people to to apply. Oh wait....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eastern's IBD pass rate average points totals have been a little lower than Banneker's to date, but they're only about to graduate their third class of IBD students, with a dozen students in a cohort.

Enough of this PC silliness. Controlling for race and class alone doesn't get you a high-performing school. In an urban center, bona fide selective admissions combined with decent facilities, strong teaching and leadership,and a diverse student body (with many high SES families of all races involved) gets you a high-performing school.

Yes, DCI will be offering International Baccalaureate Diploma studies, but only IBD lite. IBD studies won't be required at DCI, so they won't have a critical mass of students to offer many Higher Level (1-2 years past AP) classes. Reading the tea leaves, I predict that their pass total will be in the high 20s for the first five years or so they graduate students. If you're shooting for the stars in college admissions (Ivies, Little Ivies, Georgetown, Stanford, military academies, Duke etc.) and you're white or Asian, you're going to need a points total of 40+.

I'm the PP who's years away. Thank you for posting and explaining the stats. I'm familiar with the AP system from my own education but am learning about IB and watching closely what happens with the various local programs.

The other thing to consider is that Eastern and Banneker offer both AP and IB courses.

DCI, on the other hand, will only offer IB.

The problem definitely isn't that DCI will only offer IB courses, it's that their IB courses are unlikely to be terribly rigorous (because so many of their students aren't really "full" IBD material). If a Hill kid can score 6s and 7s on IBD exams at either the Standard or Higher Levels, 4s and 5s on corresponding APs come easily. Go visit one of the MoCo of Fairfax IBD programs and chat with their in-house IB Coordinator if you want to learn more. These programs run IBD open houses.

Just curious- are they not really "full IBD Material" because they're Hispanic? Or are you disgusted by the fact that DCI has black kids?

I am absolutely for a Hill middle school and a rigorous test-in high school, but your statement is flat out racist. The DCI feeders are very strong (stronger than many Hill schools in fact), and since you dismissed most of them as "not IDB material" based on nothing... You're really just a revolting racist.

- Hispanic IB diploma holder who probably would have been dismissed by racist trash like PP, but actually scored only 6s and 7s.