Why is there a teacher shortage?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But remember that 52 hours per week is only over 42 weeks of the year, as teachers get 10 weeks off in the summers.

Assuming 55 hours per week for 42 weeks, that's 2310 hours of work. For those that work 52 weeks per year, that compares to about 44.5 hours work per week. So you aren't working more total hours, but you have a compressed schedule where you have a much more concentrated schedule for 42 weeks, but have 10 weeks off each year.

Teacher here -- I want to say that I somewhat agree with you. I do feel I would be underpaid if I worked 52 hours a week as some of my colleagues do. But the summers off do make up for it somewhat.

However, right now with a MA and 15 years' teaching experience my salary is around $80,000. Even if I were to accept an 11 month or 12 month position, it would only rise to $89,000 or $97,000. That's a good salary for the teaching field, but it isn't what a lot of my similarly educated friends are making now with 15 years' experience.

Define “similarly educated.” $90-100k is pretty good for someone with a liberal arts degree. It’s not like you have an MS in a STEM field.

Regardless, schools reduce class load on teachers. I think spending more money on hiring more teachers, so they can add another hour of prep time each day, would be a better move than paying teachers more. A $10-20k bump wouldn't address burnout.

DP. Hard disagree. There are a lot of teachers who are very good at their jobs and don't feel as stressed as their coworkers BECAUSE we have spouses or partners who make enough to cover the $10-$20k additional that we should be getting paid. Ask me how I know. Having that extra amount in the family budget allows me to send my kids to camps when I have to go back to work the week before they're in school or pay a college kid to take one of them to sports practice if I have to work late and DH is taking the others to practice, pays for a house cleaning service and landscaping, and allows us to Door Dash dinner or do takeout if I get tied up with paperwork or meetings and don't have time to cook. I'm also able to "treat" myself to getting my hair done and a pedicure or a new outfit or whatever without worrying about whether it's going to mess up our finances. Oh, and I can actually set aside a decent amount for retirement. I feel a lot less burnt out than a lot of the people I work with. I might be doing work at night or on weekends sometimes but I'm also not trying to do that on top of 10 hours of house/ yard work with nothing in the budget for self care and the nagging worry that my car is going to need $2,000 in repairs that I can definitely not afford.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But remember that 52 hours per week is only over 42 weeks of the year, as teachers get 10 weeks off in the summers.

Assuming 55 hours per week for 42 weeks, that's 2310 hours of work. For those that work 52 weeks per year, that compares to about 44.5 hours work per week. So you aren't working more total hours, but you have a compressed schedule where you have a much more concentrated schedule for 42 weeks, but have 10 weeks off each year.

Teacher here -- I want to say that I somewhat agree with you. I do feel I would be underpaid if I worked 52 hours a week as some of my colleagues do. But the summers off do make up for it somewhat.

However, right now with a MA and 15 years' teaching experience my salary is around $80,000. Even if I were to accept an 11 month or 12 month position, it would only rise to $89,000 or $97,000. That's a good salary for the teaching field, but it isn't what a lot of my similarly educated friends are making now with 15 years' experience.

Define “similarly educated.” $90-100k is pretty good for someone with a liberal arts degree. It’s not like you have an MS in a STEM field.

Regardless, schools reduce class load on teachers. I think spending more money on hiring more teachers, so they can add another hour of prep time each day, would be a better move than paying teachers more. A $10-20k bump wouldn't address burnout.

It's called the teacher pay penalty.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2022/08/22/teacher-pay-penalty-hits-new-high/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The problem is it takes 3-4 hours of work to prepare for that 7 hours, especially if you are a newer teacher. You don’t actually get time AT work to complete your work. I get 42 minutes to myself each day to plan all my lessons, grade all my assignments, contact my parents, respond to emails, complete required trainings, plan for committee meetings, meet with committees, etc. The remaining 6 hours of my day are directly in front of students. I may get to sit at my desk for 2-3 minutes at a time, but that is rare and I can’t actually complete any of my tasks when students are in the room with me. That 42 minutes needs to actually be 3-4 hours. Since it isn’t, I get a tremendous backlog of work. That’s why I work 6 days a week, with Saturday being my “catch-up” day from home. Usually it’s 10-12 hours, so I spend almost every Saturday in my home office completing what I didn’t have time to do during the work day. I often can’t do it after school because I have an obligation to run one club, help with parking duty, and run tutoring. When I do get home, usually 2 hours after my contracted time, I have to check in on my own family.

This is why I am dissatisfied. I think many teachers would feel better if our time in front of students was scaled back to give us more time for the other 50% of our job.

- Signing off to start working. I attended 6 hours of meetings today, so received no time to prepare for the school year

Friend -

You HAVE to .... HAVE to ... HAVE to! figure out ways to automate and get most of your work done while you are "in front" of the students.

Things finally got manageable for me when I started working like a doctor. You know how they sit in the room with you but are spending the whole time typing on the computer? You need to assess and grade, and organize, and clean up, WHILE the students are in the room with you.

You need to reduce the amount of grading and planning you are doing ahead of time. If it can't get done at school, it isn't going to be done at all. Automate, automate automate. Grade for completion and participation. Computer score multiple choice tests. Parent contact via automated systems if at all possible instead of lengthy phone calls. Plan adequate lessons, not fancy lessons. Have handouts or slides that are decent, good enough. Use whatever your school district provides; don't reinvent the wheel.

Spending Saturdays, all day, at home doing schoolwork is completely unsustainable.

We aren't paid enough for that. Sure, it's an amazing way to be a teacher. But to teach the way you are doing, you should teach 3 hours and have 3 hours for reflection and planning and grading. But, they won't give you those three hours without students. So you need to skimp on the thoughtful reflection, use whatever they will give you instead of creating your own, and take back your life.

Check out the 40 hour work week if you haven't already:

https://join.40htw.com

A quote from that website: The average teacher joining our program works 62 hours per week. Upon completion, the average member works just 52 hours in a typical week.

52 hours is still too much.

That is less than most professionals. I don’t know anyone that works 9-5 exclusively and never takes work home or works outside of those hours. Most professional jobs require “extra” hours of work or preparation for various things that can’t be done during the work day. Plus most jobs don’t have the summers off and extended holiday breaks for every major holiday.

I dont know anyone working 52 hours per week making less than 6 figures. High 6 figures. I could go to teaching- for the same pay that I am making now- and would literally be working 2-2.5x more than I do.

Seriously? Are you talking about $800k+? What do they do?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
High school teacher? I'm just guessing you teach at a secondary level because an elementary classroom teacher is not going to be able to be that automated. There is no way to get all of that done when you are running a morning meeting, facilitating a sense making session, meeting with small math groups while monitoring stations during Math Workshop, meeting with students during Writing Workshop, meeting with groups during an intervention block, preparing materials from the science kit, meeting with reading groups, etc.

Nope! I teach elementary school too.

You HAVE to figure out ways to do it. Do less. Grade less. Provide less feedback.

For elementary school "automated" means checklists and stamps and universal rubrics and basically just lowering your standards.

I've seen young teachers writing detailed responses every week into student journals. Takes hours. Then, the leave after 3 years "because soooooo much is expected of us".

The school district will squeeze every inch of work out of you if you let them. "It's for the kids!!"

Ideas:

https://www.weareteachers.com/save-time-grading

Batch scoring Homework Grades 3-5 Rubric

https://www.teacherspayteachers.com/Product/Assignment-Rubric-Elementary-1469587


Universal Rubric:
https://truthforteachers.com/streamline-standards-based-grading-best-practices/

Are you meeting with reading groups? Math groups? Intervention groups? When do you find the time to find the texts for reading groups and figure out math stations? Does your district not expect you to do these things? Are all of your students on task?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But remember that 52 hours per week is only over 42 weeks of the year, as teachers get 10 weeks off in the summers.

Assuming 55 hours per week for 42 weeks, that's 2310 hours of work. For those that work 52 weeks per year, that compares to about 44.5 hours work per week. So you aren't working more total hours, but you have a compressed schedule where you have a much more concentrated schedule for 42 weeks, but have 10 weeks off each year.

Teacher here -- I want to say that I somewhat agree with you. I do feel I would be underpaid if I worked 52 hours a week as some of my colleagues do. But the summers off do make up for it somewhat.

However, right now with a MA and 15 years' teaching experience my salary is around $80,000. Even if I were to accept an 11 month or 12 month position, it would only rise to $89,000 or $97,000. That's a good salary for the teaching field, but it isn't what a lot of my similarly educated friends are making now with 15 years' experience.

Define “similarly educated.” $90-100k is pretty good for someone with a liberal arts degree. It’s not like you have an MS in a STEM field.

Regardless, schools reduce class load on teachers. I think spending more money on hiring more teachers, so they can add another hour of prep time each day, would be a better move than paying teachers more. A $10-20k bump wouldn't address burnout.

Got it so not just government workers are chumps anyone with a BA is less than because only STEM degrees are real
Degrees. How shortsighted for our society!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But remember that 52 hours per week is only over 42 weeks of the year, as teachers get 10 weeks off in the summers.

Assuming 55 hours per week for 42 weeks, that's 2310 hours of work. For those that work 52 weeks per year, that compares to about 44.5 hours work per week. So you aren't working more total hours, but you have a compressed schedule where you have a much more concentrated schedule for 42 weeks, but have 10 weeks off each year.

Teacher here -- I want to say that I somewhat agree with you. I do feel I would be underpaid if I worked 52 hours a week as some of my colleagues do. But the summers off do make up for it somewhat.

However, right now with a MA and 15 years' teaching experience my salary is around $80,000. Even if I were to accept an 11 month or 12 month position, it would only rise to $89,000 or $97,000. That's a good salary for the teaching field, but it isn't what a lot of my similarly educated friends are making now with 15 years' experience.

Define “similarly educated.” $90-100k is pretty good for someone with a liberal arts degree. It’s not like you have an MS in a STEM field.

Regardless, schools reduce class load on teachers. I think spending more money on hiring more teachers, so they can add another hour of prep time each day, would be a better move than paying teachers more. A $10-20k bump wouldn't address burnout.

Got it so not just government workers are chumps anyone with a BA is less than because only STEM degrees are real
Degrees. How shortsighted for our society!

No, but there is a significant difference in pay between fields. And that’s something that a lot of people seem to ignore when comparing teacher pay to private sector pay. There isn’t much of a pay gap for teachers when you compare them to people with liberal arts degrees and jobs, include total compensation rather than just salary, and adjust for 10 versus 12 months.

[Anonymous]

One of my friends who teaches runs a catering business on the side. She makes more money doing this than teaching

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
High school teacher? I'm just guessing you teach at a secondary level because an elementary classroom teacher is not going to be able to be that automated. There is no way to get all of that done when you are running a morning meeting, facilitating a sense making session, meeting with small math groups while monitoring stations during Math Workshop, meeting with students during Writing Workshop, meeting with groups during an intervention block, preparing materials from the science kit, meeting with reading groups, etc.

Nope! I teach elementary school too.

You HAVE to figure out ways to do it. Do less. Grade less. Provide less feedback.

For elementary school "automated" means checklists and stamps and universal rubrics and basically just lowering your standards.

I've seen young teachers writing detailed responses every week into student journals. Takes hours. Then, the leave after 3 years "because soooooo much is expected of us".

The school district will squeeze every inch of work out of you if you let them. "It's for the kids!!"

Ideas:

https://www.weareteachers.com/save-time-grading

Batch scoring Homework Grades 3-5 Rubric

https://www.teacherspayteachers.com/Product/Assignment-Rubric-Elementary-1469587


Universal Rubric:
https://truthforteachers.com/streamline-standards-based-grading-best-practices/

Are you meeting with reading groups? Math groups? Intervention groups? When do you find the time to find the texts for reading groups and figure out math stations? Does your district not expect you to do these things? Are all of your students on task?

Yes. Planning these things does take time, but you have to try to streamline it and go for "good enough" and not "amazing". Of course if you repeat grade levels a few times it helps and takes up less time as you develop your activities and plans.

Keep it simple. Less is more. Use what your school district gives you.. If they expect you to run Math centers or stations during small group time, what resources do they have available? Don't reinvent the wheel.

https://jillianstarrteaching.com/math-group-time-saving-tips

I'm not sure what you mean about needing planning time to find texts for your reading groups. Does your school not have a book room? Do you have online access to texts?

https://jenniferfindley.com/guided-reading-texts/

The biggest thing though is at least to keep assessment and grading to during the school day. Build in multiple opportunities where the students are quiet and occupied when you can do so. Stop taking journals and workbooks and worksheets home for sure.

Two of my best grading times for young elementary:

1. handwriting practice linked to spelling list (print or cursive, kids choose) I let them use special pens. They sell assess using a student friendly rubric. If finished early they draw a picture of three of the words. This is 5 minutes+ of quiet time where I can finish some scoring.

2. playdoh letter formation of vowel digraphs (aw, er, ou etc). I do this after each spelling test. I have worksheets with picture cues for the vowel teams and small things of playdoh just for this activity. They roll out the playdo into snakes and decorate the pictures. One worksheet takes about 5 minutes on average. I sit at the back table and call kids up one by one. I have my grade book open on my laptop; I enter the grades from the spelling tests while I call the kids back to me to tell me the sound of their vowel team and a word it is used in (meanwhile I'm just entering spelling grades into the computer.). The kids have numbers they use as well as their names so it is easy to put their papers in order and I just flip through and enter the score.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But remember that 52 hours per week is only over 42 weeks of the year, as teachers get 10 weeks off in the summers.

Assuming 55 hours per week for 42 weeks, that's 2310 hours of work. For those that work 52 weeks per year, that compares to about 44.5 hours work per week. So you aren't working more total hours, but you have a compressed schedule where you have a much more concentrated schedule for 42 weeks, but have 10 weeks off each year.

Teacher here -- I want to say that I somewhat agree with you. I do feel I would be underpaid if I worked 52 hours a week as some of my colleagues do. But the summers off do make up for it somewhat.

However, right now with a MA and 15 years' teaching experience my salary is around $80,000. Even if I were to accept an 11 month or 12 month position, it would only rise to $89,000 or $97,000. That's a good salary for the teaching field, but it isn't what a lot of my similarly educated friends are making now with 15 years' experience.

Define “similarly educated.” $90-100k is pretty good for someone with a liberal arts degree. It’s not like you have an MS in a STEM field.

Regardless, schools reduce class load on teachers. I think spending more money on hiring more teachers, so they can add another hour of prep time each day, would be a better move than paying teachers more. A $10-20k bump wouldn't address burnout.

Got it so not just government workers are chumps anyone with a BA is less than because only STEM degrees are real
Degrees. How shortsighted for our society!

No, but there is a significant difference in pay between fields. And that’s something that a lot of people seem to ignore when comparing teacher pay to private sector pay. There isn’t much of a pay gap for teachers when you compare them to people with liberal arts degrees and jobs, include total compensation rather than just salary, and adjust for 10 versus 12 months.

Disagree with you here. (You also fail to realize that plenty of teachers have STEM degrees, especially in high school teaching. Many teachers have content-specific Masters degrees in addition to an Education BA. We are required to keep taking classes / earning degrees as part of our certification.)

I know plenty of people with BAs who make a ton more than I do. I know people without college degrees who make far more than I do. One works for an insurance company. He’s in his 4th or 5th year and makes twice my salary.

It’s far too simplistic to justify low teacher pay based on the fact that most teachers have liberal arts degrees. Again: not true and not an accurate reflection of the pay disparity between teaching and other fields. I would say the pay discrepancy is related to the fact that we expect teachers to martyr their pay, saying they are paid in some other form (“the impact you get to have on kids,” etc.).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No respect, and parents. They are often harder to deal with than the kids.

Amen. Teachers are being asked to parent as well as educate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But remember that 52 hours per week is only over 42 weeks of the year, as teachers get 10 weeks off in the summers.

Assuming 55 hours per week for 42 weeks, that's 2310 hours of work. For those that work 52 weeks per year, that compares to about 44.5 hours work per week. So you aren't working more total hours, but you have a compressed schedule where you have a much more concentrated schedule for 42 weeks, but have 10 weeks off each year.

Teacher here -- I want to say that I somewhat agree with you. I do feel I would be underpaid if I worked 52 hours a week as some of my colleagues do. But the summers off do make up for it somewhat.

However, right now with a MA and 15 years' teaching experience my salary is around $80,000. Even if I were to accept an 11 month or 12 month position, it would only rise to $89,000 or $97,000. That's a good salary for the teaching field, but it isn't what a lot of my similarly educated friends are making now with 15 years' experience.

Define “similarly educated.” $90-100k is pretty good for someone with a liberal arts degree. It’s not like you have an MS in a STEM field.

Regardless, schools reduce class load on teachers. I think spending more money on hiring more teachers, so they can add another hour of prep time each day, would be a better move than paying teachers more. A $10-20k bump wouldn't address burnout.

Got it so not just government workers are chumps anyone with a BA is less than because only STEM degrees are real
Degrees. How shortsighted for our society!

No, but there is a significant difference in pay between fields. And that’s something that a lot of people seem to ignore when comparing teacher pay to private sector pay. There isn’t much of a pay gap for teachers when you compare them to people with liberal arts degrees and jobs, include total compensation rather than just salary, and adjust for 10 versus 12 months.

Disagree with you here. (You also fail to realize that plenty of teachers have STEM degrees, especially in high school teaching. Many teachers have content-specific Masters degrees in addition to an Education BA. We are required to keep taking classes / earning degrees as part of our certification.)

I know plenty of people with BAs who make a ton more than I do. I know people without college degrees who make far more than I do. One works for an insurance company. He’s in his 4th or 5th year and makes twice my salary.

It’s far too simplistic to justify low teacher pay based on the fact that most teachers have liberal arts degrees. Again: not true and not an accurate reflection of the pay disparity between teaching and other fields. I would say the pay discrepancy is related to the fact that we expect teachers to martyr their pay, saying they are paid in some other form (“the impact you get to have on kids,” etc.).

Some teaching areas are unpaid compared to other workers with similar education. As you suggested, the STEM fields are probably the best example of that. But you’re grouping them together with the liberal arts and education majors, who generally wouldn’t be expected to make significantly more, particularly when factoring in the schedule and benefits. Similarly, you don’t seem to be distinguishing someone that has a Master of Science postgraduate degree on a STEM field from someone with a Master of Education degree.

Pay isn't the problem-- the hours are. Though pay is more of a problem for STEM and SPED positions, where recruiting is particularly hard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But remember that 52 hours per week is only over 42 weeks of the year, as teachers get 10 weeks off in the summers.

Assuming 55 hours per week for 42 weeks, that's 2310 hours of work. For those that work 52 weeks per year, that compares to about 44.5 hours work per week. So you aren't working more total hours, but you have a compressed schedule where you have a much more concentrated schedule for 42 weeks, but have 10 weeks off each year.

Teacher here -- I want to say that I somewhat agree with you. I do feel I would be underpaid if I worked 52 hours a week as some of my colleagues do. But the summers off do make up for it somewhat.

However, right now with a MA and 15 years' teaching experience my salary is around $80,000. Even if I were to accept an 11 month or 12 month position, it would only rise to $89,000 or $97,000. That's a good salary for the teaching field, but it isn't what a lot of my similarly educated friends are making now with 15 years' experience.

Define “similarly educated.” $90-100k is pretty good for someone with a liberal arts degree. It’s not like you have an MS in a STEM field.

Regardless, schools reduce class load on teachers. I think spending more money on hiring more teachers, so they can add another hour of prep time each day, would be a better move than paying teachers more. A $10-20k bump wouldn't address burnout.

Got it so not just government workers are chumps anyone with a BA is less than because only STEM degrees are real
Degrees. How shortsighted for our society!

No, but there is a significant difference in pay between fields. And that’s something that a lot of people seem to ignore when comparing teacher pay to private sector pay. There isn’t much of a pay gap for teachers when you compare them to people with liberal arts degrees and jobs, include total compensation rather than just salary, and adjust for 10 versus 12 months.

Disagree with you here. (You also fail to realize that plenty of teachers have STEM degrees, especially in high school teaching. Many teachers have content-specific Masters degrees in addition to an Education BA. We are required to keep taking classes / earning degrees as part of our certification.)

I know plenty of people with BAs who make a ton more than I do. I know people without college degrees who make far more than I do. One works for an insurance company. He’s in his 4th or 5th year and makes twice my salary.

It’s far too simplistic to justify low teacher pay based on the fact that most teachers have liberal arts degrees. Again: not true and not an accurate reflection of the pay disparity between teaching and other fields. I would say the pay discrepancy is related to the fact that we expect teachers to martyr their pay, saying they are paid in some other form (“the impact you get to have on kids,” etc.).

Some teaching areas are unpaid compared to other workers with similar education. As you suggested, the STEM fields are probably the best example of that. But you’re grouping them together with the liberal arts and education majors, who generally wouldn’t be expected to make significantly more, particularly when factoring in the schedule and benefits. Similarly, you don’t seem to be distinguishing someone that has a Master of Science postgraduate degree on a STEM field from someone with a Master of Education degree.

Pay isn't the problem-- the hours are. Though pay is more of a problem for STEM and SPED positions, where recruiting is particularly hard.

I’m not grouping them together. Teaching pay scales do that. The Science teacher at my school with a PhD makes the same pay as the rest of us.

The idea of STEM and SPED being harder to recruit, and therefore needing higher pay to attract, is an outdated argument. We struggled to find Social Studies and English teachers this year. We know why. Teachers, even with these degrees you undervalue above, are finding more lucrative opportunities elsewhere. A former coworker of mine, with a “mere” English BA and a teaching certification, just got hired by a major defense firm to do editing for a lot more pay.

[Anonymous]

Historically School systems have always counted on majority female staff who were married to a higher paying spouse. Obviously that specific scenario is a lot less common now. The pay has never been enough. When education was expanded in the US women were allowed to teach specifically because they were cheaper than men. A lot of our current colleges and universities started as teaching colleges to train women to be teaches and except low pay since there were few opportunities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But remember that 52 hours per week is only over 42 weeks of the year, as teachers get 10 weeks off in the summers.

Assuming 55 hours per week for 42 weeks, that's 2310 hours of work. For those that work 52 weeks per year, that compares to about 44.5 hours work per week. So you aren't working more total hours, but you have a compressed schedule where you have a much more concentrated schedule for 42 weeks, but have 10 weeks off each year.

Teacher here -- I want to say that I somewhat agree with you. I do feel I would be underpaid if I worked 52 hours a week as some of my colleagues do. But the summers off do make up for it somewhat.

However, right now with a MA and 15 years' teaching experience my salary is around $80,000. Even if I were to accept an 11 month or 12 month position, it would only rise to $89,000 or $97,000. That's a good salary for the teaching field, but it isn't what a lot of my similarly educated friends are making now with 15 years' experience.

Define “similarly educated.” $90-100k is pretty good for someone with a liberal arts degree. It’s not like you have an MS in a STEM field.

Regardless, schools reduce class load on teachers. I think spending more money on hiring more teachers, so they can add another hour of prep time each day, would be a better move than paying teachers more. A $10-20k bump wouldn't address burnout.

Got it so not just government workers are chumps anyone with a BA is less than because only STEM degrees are real
Degrees. How shortsighted for our society!

No, but there is a significant difference in pay between fields. And that’s something that a lot of people seem to ignore when comparing teacher pay to private sector pay. There isn’t much of a pay gap for teachers when you compare them to people with liberal arts degrees and jobs, include total compensation rather than just salary, and adjust for 10 versus 12 months.

Disagree with you here. (You also fail to realize that plenty of teachers have STEM degrees, especially in high school teaching. Many teachers have content-specific Masters degrees in addition to an Education BA. We are required to keep taking classes / earning degrees as part of our certification.)

I know plenty of people with BAs who make a ton more than I do. I know people without college degrees who make far more than I do. One works for an insurance company. He’s in his 4th or 5th year and makes twice my salary.

It’s far too simplistic to justify low teacher pay based on the fact that most teachers have liberal arts degrees. Again: not true and not an accurate reflection of the pay disparity between teaching and other fields. I would say the pay discrepancy is related to the fact that we expect teachers to martyr their pay, saying they are paid in some other form (“the impact you get to have on kids,” etc.).

Some teaching areas are unpaid compared to other workers with similar education. As you suggested, the STEM fields are probably the best example of that. But you’re grouping them together with the liberal arts and education majors, who generally wouldn’t be expected to make significantly more, particularly when factoring in the schedule and benefits. Similarly, you don’t seem to be distinguishing someone that has a Master of Science postgraduate degree on a STEM field from someone with a Master of Education degree.

Pay isn't the problem-- the hours are. Though pay is more of a problem for STEM and SPED positions, where recruiting is particularly hard.

I’m not grouping them together. Teaching pay scales do that. The Science teacher at my school with a PhD makes the same pay as the rest of us.

The idea of STEM and SPED being harder to recruit, and therefore needing higher pay to attract, is an outdated argument. We struggled to find Social Studies and English teachers this year. We know why. Teachers, even with these degrees you undervalue above, are finding more lucrative opportunities elsewhere. A former coworker of mine, with a “mere” English BA and a teaching certification, just got hired by a major defense firm to do editing for a lot more pay.

It’s not an outdated argument given that those positions remain the hardest positions to fill based on state and national surveys of school districts. The longer that teachers in other fields attempt to hide or distract from that fact the longer it will take to address the problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But remember that 52 hours per week is only over 42 weeks of the year, as teachers get 10 weeks off in the summers.

Assuming 55 hours per week for 42 weeks, that's 2310 hours of work. For those that work 52 weeks per year, that compares to about 44.5 hours work per week. So you aren't working more total hours, but you have a compressed schedule where you have a much more concentrated schedule for 42 weeks, but have 10 weeks off each year.

Teacher here -- I want to say that I somewhat agree with you. I do feel I would be underpaid if I worked 52 hours a week as some of my colleagues do. But the summers off do make up for it somewhat.

However, right now with a MA and 15 years' teaching experience my salary is around $80,000. Even if I were to accept an 11 month or 12 month position, it would only rise to $89,000 or $97,000. That's a good salary for the teaching field, but it isn't what a lot of my similarly educated friends are making now with 15 years' experience.

Define “similarly educated.” $90-100k is pretty good for someone with a liberal arts degree. It’s not like you have an MS in a STEM field.

Regardless, schools reduce class load on teachers. I think spending more money on hiring more teachers, so they can add another hour of prep time each day, would be a better move than paying teachers more. A $10-20k bump wouldn't address burnout.

Got it so not just government workers are chumps anyone with a BA is less than because only STEM degrees are real
Degrees. How shortsighted for our society!

No, but there is a significant difference in pay between fields. And that’s something that a lot of people seem to ignore when comparing teacher pay to private sector pay. There isn’t much of a pay gap for teachers when you compare them to people with liberal arts degrees and jobs, include total compensation rather than just salary, and adjust for 10 versus 12 months.

Disagree with you here. (You also fail to realize that plenty of teachers have STEM degrees, especially in high school teaching. Many teachers have content-specific Masters degrees in addition to an Education BA. We are required to keep taking classes / earning degrees as part of our certification.)

I know plenty of people with BAs who make a ton more than I do. I know people without college degrees who make far more than I do. One works for an insurance company. He’s in his 4th or 5th year and makes twice my salary.

It’s far too simplistic to justify low teacher pay based on the fact that most teachers have liberal arts degrees. Again: not true and not an accurate reflection of the pay disparity between teaching and other fields. I would say the pay discrepancy is related to the fact that we expect teachers to martyr their pay, saying they are paid in some other form (“the impact you get to have on kids,” etc.).

Some teaching areas are unpaid compared to other workers with similar education. As you suggested, the STEM fields are probably the best example of that. But you’re grouping them together with the liberal arts and education majors, who generally wouldn’t be expected to make significantly more, particularly when factoring in the schedule and benefits. Similarly, you don’t seem to be distinguishing someone that has a Master of Science postgraduate degree on a STEM field from someone with a Master of Education degree.

Pay isn't the problem-- the hours are. Though pay is more of a problem for STEM and SPED positions, where recruiting is particularly hard.

I’m not grouping them together. Teaching pay scales do that. The Science teacher at my school with a PhD makes the same pay as the rest of us.

The idea of STEM and SPED being harder to recruit, and therefore needing higher pay to attract, is an outdated argument. We struggled to find Social Studies and English teachers this year. We know why. Teachers, even with these degrees you undervalue above, are finding more lucrative opportunities elsewhere. A former coworker of mine, with a “mere” English BA and a teaching certification, just got hired by a major defense firm to do editing for a lot more pay.

It’s not an outdated argument given that those positions remain the hardest positions to fill based on state and national surveys of school districts. The longer that teachers in other fields attempt to hide or distract from that fact the longer it will take to address the problem.

MOST positions are hard to fill right now. That’s the point of this particular thread.

You are suggesting that there is an army of teachers attempting to keep their science and math counterparts underpaid. I have never, in 20 years of teaching, heard that argument at the school or district level. That being said, I value my discipline (English) and I am aware of its value to society. Writing is a critical skill and strong writers/communicators are hard to find. If another teacher gets a higher salary than me simply because of their discipline, I will find another district. I am aware that this teacher shortage is giving me a tremendous amount of job security. There are openings everywhere, even in English, and it would not be hard to transfer to a place that would value me more. I can also follow the example of former colleagues and transfer out of education. I have 2 degrees (neither are Education) and 20 successful years of managing people and data. I’ll be fine.

Another option, and the one that would support our students, would be to raise salaries and reduce workloads across the board. We need to do both to reduce teacher burnout and to improve teacher morale.