Anonymous wrote:We haven’t had a cycle of admissions without the APs yet, so not sure how it will impact that aspect. But kids are already planning to self study for the APs while taking the high rigor non-AP curriculum. To me this is a level up in the college arms race, and is the worst of all worlds. Other than for the teachers who get to design their own non AP curriculum.
+1
This is already happening at my kid’s school. It’d be better just to have the AP classes.
Right. This approach is just an extra stressor in students and families who now have to plan for that instead of it being baked into the curriculum and school day. It's also going to have the opposite of the intended effect (equity) because as always the more resourced families will find a way for their child to take the APs or go beyond the standard curriculum in some way, and other families won't.
Anonymous wrote:^ if they are identical between the local
Public and Sidwell (and that is generous) then what is the academic benefit of doing the AP? And I challenge you to find anyone who graduated HYP early because they took AP. Do you work for the college board or something? Otherwise I’m not sure why you are so defensive of AP.
The classes are identical meaning they have the same content and standards, they don’t teach different math in privates. But there are other advantages, ie students have a preselected socioeconomic and academic profile, (maybe) better teachers, smaller teacher to student ratio. These are factors that can contribute to the students being successful in the class and matter a lot for writing as an example.
That’s why people pay for privates, not because their calculus also covers multivariable.
These are all also present when the private offers an AP course, so these are not advantages to a private no longer offering AP courses.
Anonymous wrote:^ if they are identical between the local
Public and Sidwell (and that is generous) then what is the academic benefit of doing the AP? And I challenge you to find anyone who graduated HYP early because they took AP. Do you work for the college board or something? Otherwise I’m not sure why you are so defensive of AP.
The classes are identical meaning they have the same content and standards, they don’t teach different math in privates. But there are other advantages, ie students have a preselected socioeconomic and academic profile, (maybe) better teachers, smaller teacher to student ratio. These are factors that can contribute to the students being successful in the class and matter a lot for writing as an example.
That’s why people pay for privates, not because their calculus also covers multivariable.
These are all also present when the private offers an AP course, so these are not advantages to a private no longer offering AP courses.
Privates no longer offering APs is just theatrical move. The classes are the same just not called AP anymore, so the only thing changed is having to find a place to take the exam instead of the home school. To me it just shows a lack of integrity from the administration.
Anonymous wrote:AP classes are like a McDonalds happy meal. They even throw in a little toy, college credit. However, if you really care you can do much better for your kids.
I’ll give you the fact that AP classes have shortcomings, but let’s be honest here, it’s not like private classes are that much better.
Lower division major classes are a commodity, Calculus 1 for example is pretty much the same at many universities, they’ll use the same textbooks.
In what way is private school calculus better than the AP or community college version? It’s not, if anything the community college class is the most rigorous among them.
There are other legitimate reasons to go to a private school, but rigor of classes over AP is not one of them.
College credit and placement is definitely nice to have.
Rigor of coursework is one of the top reasons to choose private schools.
The grade inflation at public schools has rendered their grades meaningless and an unweighted 4.0 GPA is the norm.
Being graded beyond multiple choice exams, such as meaningful regular feedback on writing, or complex mathematics problem solving, is a good example of what a huge difference there is.
The reason for multiple choices are testing a large number of concepts going through the entire curriculum . It’s done not only for AP but also professional testing, MCAT, LSAT, GRE. It’s not like the five teachers at the math department at some high school figured out how to design a test better than the staff at a billion dollar company.
Let’s be real with complex mathematics problem solving. Give some specifics if you have. AP
Exams are well thought out.
AP exams are a joke. You can get a 5 and still be completely unprepared for the college class it was supposed to overlap with.
AP wants to sell their program to the largest audience possible, to maximize profits. Their standards are extremely low.
Comparing it to MCAT or LSAT makes no sense. Those have much harder grading that actually separates students, like the SAT.
AP results are good enough for MIT and Stanford, but nope, not good enough for you and some private school. C’mon now, let’s not exaggerate.
Curious how you think Calculus at private is that much better than AP Calculus BC. From the syllabus bits I’ve seen on the internet it’s not what you make it seem. Be specific if you can instead of generalities.
Challenging students to go far beyond the AP curriculum, mirroring what an T30 college would provide, and offering multiple math classes beyond multi variable calculus, is the expectation at a decent private.
The multivariable and beyond at privates are nowhere close to what’s taught at top 30. That’s not why students go to privates. It’s great the advance classes exists, but there won’t be any college credit earned. That’s assuming these classes are offered, not always the case.
If you’re really after credit go through community college or 4 year universities for dual enrollment. Usually publics have agreements, while privates don’t, but that’s not a problem, the additional cost is not prohibitive.
Plus many of them don’t even offer beyond multivariable, because they view acceleration negatively.
These people will repeat any talking point they hear from their schools.
Some of these talking points are legitimate so dismissing it by calling it just a talking point is lazy.
The arguments for removing APs were just that, talking points. Privates don’t necessarily view acceleration negatively, but it depends on the size of the school, the students attending to have a critical mass for the classes.
The privates are doing just fine without AP classes. Kids can take AP tests if they want. Who really cares?
Yes they can but it’s a huge PIA as it requires prep that would not be required if they just taught the damn AP class…not a fan. Our school switched when we were already 7 years in- too late to change course. But I would have likely chosen different school if the no AP thing had been on the table before my kids got to high school. For us it’s too late.
I agree. Removing the AP classes was just a marketing ploy, so the AP participation and scores would not be easily compared across public and private schools. Most people would not have cared and send the kids to private for different reasons. Now, for any advanced class the student needs to study on their own to prepare for the test format and topics that may be missing. Although some privates explicitly state the class will prepare the student for the AP exam, they are not AP classes so that’s a head scratcher.
I disagree. AP classes are the marketing ploy, and many schools are wisely realizing that the material they cover isn’t very good.
Sure AP classes are a marketing ploy with the tangible benefit of getting college credit.
Pick Calculus or whatever class, what part being covered isn’t very good? At least in math and sciences, the overlap between not very good AP classes and the new “improved”classes is 100%.
You’re just repeating talking points.
I will rephrase "not very good". How about "not as useful as an Honors classes at a strong private"? I don't seem the benefit in AP when you can take a better class, get the same GPA boost from honors, and still gain acceptance to a Top 25 college. Also, most elite schools don't allow graduation credit for AP any longer, and you will get the same placement benefit from an Honors course. The talking point is that AP allows you to get credit and graduate sooner when in actuality that is rarely true. n Happy to be debated on that if you have any proof of the opposite.....but I seriously doubt it.
Maybe bother to check the college policies with respect to AP coursework before having a strong opinion on the topic. Among HYPSM “elite” colleges Yale, Princeton, Stanford, and MIT give some credit for AP exams, so there goes your theory.
What’s so special about those honor classes at strong privates? You might get a better teacher, more individual support, but that has nothing to do with the curriculum and exam. It’s not like privates will invent new calculus and Physics to teach.
Read the calculus course description at “strong private” Sidwell and the one at college board. They are identical.
+1. And this is true for most of the subjects. Probably the only ones where there can easily be clear variation are English lit and the history ones (not the other social sciences). But even then it mostly comes down to teaching.
AP History courses lean heavily on memorizing the terms in every chapter, maybe 150-200 in a whole course. If you are good at flash cards and memorization plus some OK writing, passing isn't hard. But it's just baby steps in terms of historical analysis, and the teacher will coach you in the formats (DBQ, short answer, long answer).
A non-AP course covers the same main topics but doesn't have to pound away on every flash card term. That time can go into deeper study and more complex analysis and projects.
A bright kid can take that better course and learn more about what they will need in college. Then they can get the AP cram book and use the flash cards to make up the rest.
Those who say an AP course can do all of that in the allotted time in one year have not planned and taught one.
You obviously have no idea what is actually on the AP US History exam. Of course some memorization is necessary because you can't understand or write about history if you haven't memorized anything. Every single unit has a variety of primary sources that is listed for a teacher to use and the goal is not to memorize facts but to be able to understand and then analyze. It is a survey course of American History not only to learn what you need in college but to understand the history of our country. You can't spend too much time on deeper study and projects on one topic because there is a lot to cover to have a solid foundation in US History.
Period 6: 1865-1898
The transformation of the United States from an agricultural to an increasingly industrialized and urbanized society brought about significant economic, political, diplomatic, social, environmental, and cultural changes. Topics may include:
The Settlement of the West
The "New South"
The Rise of Industrial Capitalism
Immigration and Migration
Reform Movements
Debates about the Role of Government
Here are a few specific Learning Goals for this Period that is supposed to last around 18 school days. They include:
6.2 Explain the causes and effects of the settlement of the West from 1877 to 1898.
6.4 Explain how various factors contributed to continuity and change in the “New South” from 1877 to 1898.
6.6 Explain the socioeconomic continuities and changes associated with the growth of industrial capitalism from 1865 to 1898.
6.8 Immigration and Migration in the Gilded Age Explain how did cultural and economic factors affected migration patterns over time.
6.11 Explain how different reform movements responded to the rise of industrial capitalism in the Gilded Age.
6.12 Controversies over the role of government in the Gilded Age - Explain continuities and changes in the role of the government in the U.S. economy with a focus on a) the argument that some supported laissez-faire policies and competition promoted economic growth in the long run, and they opposed government intervention during economic downturns. And b) Foreign policymakers increasingly looked outside US borders in an effort to gain greater influence and control over markets and natural resources in the Pacific Rim, Asia, and Latin America.
6.14 Explain the extent to which industrialization brought change from 1865 to 1898.
![[Post New]](/jforum/templates/default/images/icon_minipost_new.gif){kind=icon}