My beheading thread

[Anonymous]

"I am going to lock this thread because it clearly displays a lack of knowledge which unintentionally results in a very insulting post. As I have posted here many times, there is no formal structure to "Islam" as there is within Catholicism. Most of you questions should be answered by the fact that Muslims are not merely forming committees and talking to their children about IS and the beheadings, but actively fighting and dying in the struggle to stop the organization.

Again, as I have written repeatedly, IS does not reflect "Islam" but rather Wahhabi Islam which is also the "official" Islam of Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia has beheaded far more people via official executions that IS had dreamed of doing. If you are concerned about beheadings, I suggest that you spend less time with accusatory posts such as this are more time urging your own government to reconsider its close alliance with and reliance own Saudi Arabia. Of course, you may need to reconsider some of your own choices in energy consumption, so you may want to form a committee instead. "

You don't think it is a spiritual thing?

I do.

You don't think it is heartbreaking for those who are Islamic?

I am not asking about the government or the politics, I am wondering about how their faith community deals with this on a personal and spiritual level.

Why is that not a valid question to ask on a religious forum, how they are dealing with this within their faith community?

My post was not ignorant, or mean or inflammatory. It is a valid question to ask.

Posts about Catholics and child molestation occur regularly and with much vitrol and inflammatory language on dcum all the time, and you never lock those forums.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:"
Posts about Catholics and child molestation occur regularly and with much vitrol and inflammatory language on dcum all the time, and you never lock those forums.

As long as you suggest that this is a valid analogy, you continue to display your lack of understanding. Nobody suggests that child molestation is a "spiritual" part of Catholicism. Rather, the criticism is that the officials who hold positions within the Catholic Church have not done enough to prevent or address the problem.

American Muslims have no more ability to stop beheadings by extremists than you do. The primary problem they face is not telling their children that beheadings are wrong, but explaining to their children why they are being blamed for something they find horrifying.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"
Posts about Catholics and child molestation occur regularly and with much vitrol and inflammatory language on dcum all the time, and you never lock those forums.

As long as you suggest that this is a valid analogy, you continue to display your lack of understanding. Nobody suggests that child molestation is a "spiritual" part of Catholicism. Rather, the criticism is that the officials who hold positions within the Catholic Church have not done enough to prevent or address the problem.

American Muslims have no more ability to stop beheadings by extremists than you do. The primary problem they face is not telling their children that beheadings are wrong, but explaining to their children why they are being blamed for something they find horrifying.

Are you a person of faith, or are you an atheist?

I never said beheading is a "spiritual" part of Islam, just as priests messing around with children is not a "spiritual" part of Catholicism.

But you would have to have no understanding of faith if you think that this does not affect either of these topics does not affect people of faith on a very spiritual level.

As a Catholic, and for every other Catholic I know, the scandals of molestation affected them on a very spiritual level, even though the actions had nothing to do with our faith, it had everything to do with our faith. Many questioned their beliefs. Many left their faith.

I don't care what branch of Islam these crazies is or is not. You can't tell me it does not affect others of this faith on a personal level. Does it make them struggle with their faith? Does it make them stronger in their faith? Are their mosques talking about it? How do they deal with their children because their non-muslim classmates are talking about it? How is their formal structure/hierarchy addressing this?

You can't tell me that their mosques aren't talking about it, but maybe they aren't?

For me, some of the formal steps that the church took helped me deal with our tragedy. Some of what helped was hearing them talk about it.

I am talking about their churches/mosques as an instrument of faith.

If I wanted to inflame people politically (which I didn't) I would have posted in the political forum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"I am going to lock this thread because it clearly displays a lack of knowledge which unintentionally results in a very insulting post. As I have posted here many times, there is no formal structure to "Islam" as there is within Catholicism. Most of you questions should be answered by the fact that Muslims are not merely forming committees and talking to their children about IS and the beheadings, but actively fighting and dying in the struggle to stop the organization.

Again, as I have written repeatedly, IS does not reflect "Islam" but rather Wahhabi Islam which is also the "official" Islam of Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia has beheaded far more people via official executions that IS had dreamed of doing. If you are concerned about beheadings, I suggest that you spend less time with accusatory posts such as this are more time urging your own government to reconsider its close alliance with and reliance own Saudi Arabia. Of course, you may need to reconsider some of your own choices in energy consumption, so you may want to form a committee instead. "

You don't think it is a spiritual thing?

I do.

You don't think it is heartbreaking for those who are Islamic?

I am not asking about the government or the politics, I am wondering about how their faith community deals with this on a personal and spiritual level.

Why is that not a valid question to ask on a religious forum, how they are dealing with this within their faith community?

My post was not ignorant, or mean or inflammatory. It is a valid question to ask.

Posts about Catholics and child molestation occur regularly and with much vitrol and inflammatory language on dcum all the time, and you never lock those forums.

Oh, and I don't buy Saudi oil.

I buy my gas from Sunoco, even if other gas stations are cheaper, unless I am driving out of state in areas where there are not Sunocos.

[jsteele]

I'm having a hard time reconciling this:

Anonymous wrote:You don't think it is a spiritual thing?

With this:

Anonymous wrote:I never said beheading is a "spiritual" part of Islam

In my response to your original post, I described your post as "unintentionally" insulting.

In that post, you ask:

Anonymous wrote:what is being done by your community to stop this vile behavior?

If you were a bit more concerned about the different tendencies with Islam, you might have learned that the vast majority of American Muslims do not share a belief in beheadings with IS. No less than Abu Qatada, a Muslim leader so extreme that he was expelled from the UK and now sits in a cell in Jordan has said the beheadings are against the teaching of Islam.

Suggesting that these beheadings have something to do with the American Muslim community is insulting. It is alien to their community and to their faith. If you want to know how American Muslims are dealing with the situation, why not ask how the community deals with the vast number of Americans who don't understand that simple fact.

[Anonymous]

I thought that was a very good thread. How is the community responding to these acts done in the name of the community?
Christianity is decentralized and has numerous authorities and I would consider it quite legitimate for the issue to be aired under any similar circumstances.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:I thought that was a very good thread. How is the community responding to these acts done in the name of the community?
Christianity is decentralized and has numerous authorities and I would consider it quite legitimate for the issue to be aired under any similar circumstances.

Muslims are being killed by Christians in the Central African Republic. What is your community doing to stop that? Have you talked about it with your children? Did you form a committee to address it?

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:I'm having a hard time reconciling this:

Anonymous wrote:You don't think it is a spiritual thing?

With this:

Anonymous wrote:I never said beheading is a "spiritual" part of Islam

In my response to your original post, I described your post as "unintentionally" insulting.

In that post, you ask:

Anonymous wrote:what is being done by your community to stop this vile behavior?

If you were a bit more concerned about the different tendencies with Islam, you might have learned that the vast majority of American Muslims do not share a belief in beheadings with IS. No less than Abu Qatada, a Muslim leader so extreme that he was expelled from the UK and now sits in a cell in Jordan has said the beheadings are against the teaching of Islam.

Suggesting that these beheadings have something to do with the American Muslim community is insulting. It is alien to their community and to their faith. If you want to know how American Muslims are dealing with the situation, why not ask how the community deals with the vast number of Americans who don't understand that simple fact.

Beheading is not a spiritual thing.

Beheading must affect them spiritually

You don't see the difference?

On the other quote:

"what is being done by your community to stop this vile behavior"

I apologize for stating this question in an inarticulate matter, but I do wonder how they are speaking out, how are they mobilizing? Is it just through prayer? Through outreach?

Churches can enact a positive change towards very vile circumstances. They do have power. They have a voice. They can right great wrongs. (they meaning churches and people of faith)

You could substitute "Islamic people of faith" to "mainstream protestant people of faith" to whatever people of faith. If a large group of a particular religion were doing such horrific acts in the name of that religion, I would wonder the exact same thing. What are they doing as a faith community to combat such evil done in the name of their faith and how is this impacting them if they are people of faith?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I thought that was a very good thread. How is the community responding to these acts done in the name of the community?
Christianity is decentralized and has numerous authorities and I would consider it quite legitimate for the issue to be aired under any similar circumstances.

Thank you.

[Anonymous]

As long as you suggest that this is a valid analogy, you continue to display your lack of understanding. Nobody suggests that child molestation is a "spiritual" part of Catholicism. Rather, the criticism is that the officials who hold positions within the Catholic Church have not done enough to prevent or address the problem.

American Muslims have no more ability to stop beheadings by extremists than you do. The primary problem they face is not telling their children that beheadings are wrong, but explaining to their children why they are being blamed for something they find horrifying.


Are you a person of faith, or are you an atheist?

I never said beheading is a "spiritual" part of Islam, just as priests messing around with children is not a "spiritual" part of Catholicism.

But you would have to have no understanding of faith if you think that this does not affect either of these topics does not affect people of faith on a very spiritual level.

As a Catholic, and for every other Catholic I know, the scandals of molestation affected them on a very spiritual level, even though the actions had nothing to do with our faith, it had everything to do with our faith. Many questioned their beliefs. Many left their faith.

I don't care what branch of Islam these crazies is or is not. You can't tell me it does not affect others of this faith on a personal level. Does it make them struggle with their faith? Does it make them stronger in their faith? Are their mosques talking about it? How do they deal with their children because their non-muslim classmates are talking about it? How is their formal structure/hierarchy addressing this?

You can't tell me that their mosques aren't talking about it, but maybe they aren't?

For me, some of the formal steps that the church took helped me deal with our tragedy. Some of what helped was hearing them talk about it.

I am talking about their churches/mosques as an instrument of faith.

If I wanted to inflame people politically (which I didn't) I would have posted in the political forum.

I know many people of faith who ignorant about religion and atheist who can discuss the tenants of many religions.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought that was a very good thread. How is the community responding to these acts done in the name of the community?
Christianity is decentralized and has numerous authorities and I would consider it quite legitimate for the issue to be aired under any similar circumstances.

Muslims are being killed by Christians in the Central African Republic. What is your community doing to stop that? Have you talked about it with your children? Did you form a committee to address it?

Well, I talked about my faith's major issue (priests molesting children) in an age appropriate way with my kids.

My community put into place safeguards such as not allowing any non-related adults to be alone with non-related children in the church facilities without another adult present.

I did not join a committee at my church, but there were committees at my church addressing this tragedy.

The catechism of the Catholic church does not support such atrocities, but the actions of these priests, using faith to silence and abuse victims (most of the victims were from families of great faith and the priest used that faith and Catholic doctrine/obedience to access, manipulate and abuse those children) makes most people not of the Catholic faith associate Catholicism with child molestation.

The Catholic church is not killing muslims in the Central African Republic (as far as I know), nor are the Christians doing the killing doing it in the name of Catholicism (as far as I know). If they were, I would hope that my Catholic church hierarchy, from the smallest local parish all the way to Pope Francis would speak out loudly, publically, emphatically, and often, and also take action against such atrocity. I would hope to see the local parish do things like organize a rosary for peace in that part of the world, for example.

[Anonymous]

Jeff, you write as though Muslins can't influence other Muslims. The Wahabbis are who they are, and unless maybe SA does something about it, there's nothing other Muslins can do.

NPR had a piece last week about competition between fundies and moderates, and how this heats up when the U.S. Leaves the region for a bit (while we're there, everybody is united against us). When we absent ourselves, attention turns to whether the fundies are brutal, and competition for Muslim hearts and minds may actually be reigning in the really bad actors. Sorry, I tried to find a link but couldn't. Similarly, some say Bin Laden was concerned, near the end, that al Qaeda's violence had diminished support.

So there may be no central Muslim authority. But the opinion of millions of Muslins is important to any group that's trying to extend its power base. Maybe that's what the poster is intending, in fact she refers to "your community".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

As long as you suggest that this is a valid analogy, you continue to display your lack of understanding. Nobody suggests that child molestation is a "spiritual" part of Catholicism. Rather, the criticism is that the officials who hold positions within the Catholic Church have not done enough to prevent or address the problem.

American Muslims have no more ability to stop beheadings by extremists than you do. The primary problem they face is not telling their children that beheadings are wrong, but explaining to their children why they are being blamed for something they find horrifying.


Are you a person of faith, or are you an atheist?

I never said beheading is a "spiritual" part of Islam, just as priests messing around with children is not a "spiritual" part of Catholicism.

But you would have to have no understanding of faith if you think that this does not affect either of these topics does not affect people of faith on a very spiritual level.

As a Catholic, and for every other Catholic I know, the scandals of molestation affected them on a very spiritual level, even though the actions had nothing to do with our faith, it had everything to do with our faith. Many questioned their beliefs. Many left their faith.

I don't care what branch of Islam these crazies is or is not. You can't tell me it does not affect others of this faith on a personal level. Does it make them struggle with their faith? Does it make them stronger in their faith? Are their mosques talking about it? How do they deal with their children because their non-muslim classmates are talking about it? How is their formal structure/hierarchy addressing this?

You can't tell me that their mosques aren't talking about it, but maybe they aren't?

For me, some of the formal steps that the church took helped me deal with our tragedy. Some of what helped was hearing them talk about it.

I am talking about their churches/mosques as an instrument of faith.

If I wanted to inflame people politically (which I didn't) I would have posted in the political forum.

I know many people of faith who ignorant about religion and atheist who can discuss the tenants of many religions.

I agree. There is one very knowledgeable one going back and forth on the various Islam threads right now. I could be wrong, but I bet that person has made an appearance on other Catholic threads as well. That person is very respectful even when being contrary and is interesting to read.

I asked that Jeff because not because I was questioning his knowledge (I wasn't as he is clearly more knowledgeable about this as a topic than I am) but because I wonder if he understands how this type of thing affects someone on a faith level. You can't be a person of faith and have something like this happening in the name of your faith (however twisted that might be) and not have it affect you on a faith level.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:
The Catholic church is not killing muslims in the Central African Republic (as far as I know), nor are the Christians doing the killing doing it in the name of Catholicism (as far as I know). If they were, I would hope that my Catholic church hierarchy, from the smallest local parish all the way to Pope Francis would speak out loudly, publically, emphatically, and often, and also take action against such atrocity. I would hope to see the local parish do things like organize a rosary for peace in that part of the world, for example.

Here is you earlier:

Anonymous wrote:I don't care what branch of Islam these crazies is or is not.

Why should we care if the Christians in the CAR are Catholics or not?

Again, I don't think you intentionally meant your post to be insulting. Nevertheless, that's what it was.

You are a member of a religion institution and it is laudable that you worked internally to address problems within that institution. But, Islam is not structured like the Catholic Church. The vast majority of American Muslims see IS as different from them as you see Westboro Baptist Church from you.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The Catholic church is not killing muslims in the Central African Republic (as far as I know), nor are the Christians doing the killing doing it in the name of Catholicism (as far as I know). If they were, I would hope that my Catholic church hierarchy, from the smallest local parish all the way to Pope Francis would speak out loudly, publically, emphatically, and often, and also take action against such atrocity. I would hope to see the local parish do things like organize a rosary for peace in that part of the world, for example.

Here is you earlier:

Anonymous wrote:I don't care what branch of Islam these crazies is or is not.

Why should we care if the Christians in the CAR are Catholics or not?

Again, I don't think you intentionally meant your post to be insulting. Nevertheless, that's what it was.

You are a member of a religion institution and it is laudable that you worked internally to address problems within that institution. But, Islam is not structured like the Catholic Church. The vast majority of American Muslims see IS as different from them as you see Westboro Baptist Church from you.

And many Christians of all faiths, including every single Baptist I know, speak out against the Westboro Baptist Church. Many act very proactively to fight their appearances at funerals for example, and do so in the name of faith.

I know my kid's Pakistani classmates mom is not of a faith that advocates beheading. I didn't want the question dismissed with "oh, it is just the Saudi version of Islam and not real Islam" If you are a person of faith (Islam) how is this affecting you on a personal/parish (mosque) level, even if you are obviously a different kind of Islamic faith? How are you dealing with it? Because I can't imagine that they are just sitting there going "oh it is just the Saudi crazies" when it is happening to this magnitude and with such brutality. That is why I posted in the religion forum, and not the political forum. I didn't want a discussion about oil and politics, but faith and faith action.

There is a faith issue, and there is a political/social/religion issue. Two different things.