My beheading thread

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

You are a member of a religion institution and it is laudable that you worked internally to address problems within that institution. But, Islam is not structured like the Catholic Church. The vast majority of American Muslims see IS as different from them as you see Westboro Baptist Church from you.

The Catholic Church was influenced by public opinion from non-Catholics as well as Catholics. No central authority organized the non-Catholic public opinion, it just happened.

Why can't ISIS be influenced by public opinion from other non-Wahhabi Muslims? If ISIS wants power, it has to listen to ordinary Muslims. Why are you arguing that ordinary Muslims, unless they are Wahhabis, are impotent to organize?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

You are a member of a religion institution and it is laudable that you worked internally to address problems within that institution. But, Islam is not structured like the Catholic Church. The vast majority of American Muslims see IS as different from them as you see Westboro Baptist Church from you.

The Catholic Church was influenced by public opinion from non-Catholics as well as Catholics. No central authority organized the non-Catholic public opinion, it just happened.

Why can't ISIS be influenced by public opinion from other non-Wahhabi Muslims? If ISIS wants power, it has to listen to ordinary Muslims. Why are you arguing that ordinary Muslims, unless they are Wahhabis, are impotent to organize?

That is true.

If it were just left up to the bishops and the hierarchy the problem would still be swept under the rug. But public outrage from all walks of life made a huge difference.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:
And many Christians of all faiths, including every single Baptist I know, speak out against the Westboro Baptist Church. Many act very proactively to fight their appearances at funerals for example, and do so in the name of faith.

I know my kid's Pakistani classmates mom is not of a faith that advocates beheading. I didn't want the question dismissed with "oh, it is just the Saudi version of Islam and not real Islam" If you are a person of faith (Islam) how is this affecting you on a personal/parish (mosque) level, even if you are obviously a different kind of Islamic faith? How are you dealing with it? Because I can't imagine that they are just sitting there going "oh it is just the Saudi crazies" when it is happening to this magnitude and with such brutality. That is why I posted in the religion forum, and not the political forum. I didn't want a discussion about oil and politics, but faith and faith action.

There is a faith issue, and there is a political/social/religion issue. Two different things.

Of course Muslims speak out against the beheadings. As I pointed out, even one of the most radical Muslim leaders around -- a guy who is in jail because of how radical he is -- spoke out against them. Just Google it.

If you want to know the truth, the mother of the Pakistani child's biggest concern regarding the beheadings is that people like you will think she supports such vile acts.

Thousands of Muslims have been killed in the CAR and you just washed your hands. Yet, three journalists is a huge "magnitude" in your words and requires soul-searching by people who have nothing to do with it.

I'm not going to debate this all night. Your original post was insulting and displayed a considerable lack of knowledge. That's why I locked the thread. You can argue all you want in this thread, but it will not change that fact. If you want to know how American Muslims are dealing with the beheadings, figure out a non-insulting way to ask the question.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:
Why can't ISIS be influenced by public opinion from other non-Wahhabi Muslims? If ISIS wants power, it has to listen to ordinary Muslims. Why are you arguing that ordinary Muslims, unless they are Wahhabis, are impotent to organize?

IS considers non-Wahhabi Muslims to be heretics who themselves should be killed. Why would it pay any attention to them whatsoever? I am arguing that American Muslims are no more able than American Jews or American Christians to influence IS and shouldn't be treated any differently from members of those religions.

[Anonymous]

I just feel the need to point out the problem in the OP's analogy. She is talking about the priest sex abuse scandal and comparing it to the IS/ mainstream American Muslim relationship. This is not the same situation. Catholic priests were abusing children within their communities. They were employees of the Catholic Church and that is why the Catholic Church bears responsibility.

The "relationship" between IS and other Muslims is more like a cult (David Koresh, Jim jones, etc) and Methodists or any other Christian faith. Maybe they both say they are/ were Christian but that in no way made Methodists responsible for the actions of crazy nuts.

So OP do you see why it is offensive to expect the Methodists to do something about crazy cults? Kind of like expecting American Muslims to do something because of crazy murderers abroad.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
And many Christians of all faiths, including every single Baptist I know, speak out against the Westboro Baptist Church. Many act very proactively to fight their appearances at funerals for example, and do so in the name of faith.

I know my kid's Pakistani classmates mom is not of a faith that advocates beheading. I didn't want the question dismissed with "oh, it is just the Saudi version of Islam and not real Islam" If you are a person of faith (Islam) how is this affecting you on a personal/parish (mosque) level, even if you are obviously a different kind of Islamic faith? How are you dealing with it? Because I can't imagine that they are just sitting there going "oh it is just the Saudi crazies" when it is happening to this magnitude and with such brutality. That is why I posted in the religion forum, and not the political forum. I didn't want a discussion about oil and politics, but faith and faith action.

There is a faith issue, and there is a political/social/religion issue. Two different things.

Of course Muslims speak out against the beheadings. As I pointed out, even one of the most radical Muslim leaders around -- a guy who is in jail because of how radical he is -- spoke out against them. Just Google it.

If you want to know the truth, the mother of the Pakistani child's biggest concern regarding the beheadings is that people like you will think she supports such vile acts.

Thousands of Muslims have been killed in the CAR and you just washed your hands. Yet, three journalists is a huge "magnitude" in your words and requires soul-searching by people who have nothing to do with it.

I'm not going to debate this all night. Your original post was insulting and displayed a considerable lack of knowledge. That's why I locked the thread. You can argue all you want in this thread, but it will not change that fact. If you want to know how American Muslims are dealing with the beheadings, figure out a non-insulting way to ask the question.

Nobody is washing their hands of Muslims in CAR. Please. That's like asking why you didn't instead mention Buddhists in communist countries--are you washing your hands of them?

Obviously the issue here is "events done in the name of my religion that have shattered its image." CAR, while absolutely horrible, doesn't rise to that level. So she was trying to bond, maybe naively, over pedophelia and ISIS.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
And many Christians of all faiths, including every single Baptist I know, speak out against the Westboro Baptist Church. Many act very proactively to fight their appearances at funerals for example, and do so in the name of faith.

I know my kid's Pakistani classmates mom is not of a faith that advocates beheading. I didn't want the question dismissed with "oh, it is just the Saudi version of Islam and not real Islam" If you are a person of faith (Islam) how is this affecting you on a personal/parish (mosque) level, even if you are obviously a different kind of Islamic faith? How are you dealing with it? Because I can't imagine that they are just sitting there going "oh it is just the Saudi crazies" when it is happening to this magnitude and with such brutality. That is why I posted in the religion forum, and not the political forum. I didn't want a discussion about oil and politics, but faith and faith action.

There is a faith issue, and there is a political/social/religion issue. Two different things.

Of course Muslims speak out against the beheadings. As I pointed out, even one of the most radical Muslim leaders around -- a guy who is in jail because of how radical he is -- spoke out against them. Just Google it.

If you want to know the truth, the mother of the Pakistani child's biggest concern regarding the beheadings is that people like you will think she supports such vile acts.

Thousands of Muslims have been killed in the CAR and you just washed your hands. Yet, three journalists is a huge "magnitude" in your words and requires soul-searching by people who have nothing to do with it.

I'm not going to debate this all night. Your original post was insulting and displayed a considerable lack of knowledge. That's why I locked the thread. You can argue all you want in this thread, but it will not change that fact. If you want to know how American Muslims are dealing with the beheadings, figure out a non-insulting way to ask the question.

Okay. I appreciate you taking the time to express your reasoning.

Please delete the thread in its entirety.

Enjoy the rest of your evening.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Why can't ISIS be influenced by public opinion from other non-Wahhabi Muslims? If ISIS wants power, it has to listen to ordinary Muslims. Why are you arguing that ordinary Muslims, unless they are Wahhabis, are impotent to organize?

IS considers non-Wahhabi Muslims to be heretics who themselves should be killed. Why would it pay any attention to them whatsoever? I am arguing that American Muslims are no more able than American Jews or American Christians to influence IS and shouldn't be treated any differently from members of those religions.

I posted about the NPR story that said yes, fundies like ISIS are influenced by public opinion.

At the extreme, ISIS only cares about other Wahhabis. In this scenario, ISIS needs to win the Wahhabi base--unless you're arguing that virtually all Wahhabis will support ISIS no matter what it does.

More realistically, ISIS needs at least tacit support from the many non-Wahhabi Sunnis in the region.

If Bin Laden started caring about the Sunni on the street and his opinion of al Qaeda violence, then ISIS might too. It might take years for ISIS to get there, but if Bin Laden eventually did. I don't see why mobilizing Muslim public opinion is so fruitless in your eyes.

[Anonymous]

I thank Jeff for locking the thread. It was ignorant. There have been so many threads already asking what Muslims are doing about Isis. They are doing lots and decrying it a un-Islamic. The post was phrased in an inflammatory and offensive way.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Why can't ISIS be influenced by public opinion from other non-Wahhabi Muslims? If ISIS wants power, it has to listen to ordinary Muslims. Why are you arguing that ordinary Muslims, unless they are Wahhabis, are impotent to organize?

IS considers non-Wahhabi Muslims to be heretics who themselves should be killed. Why would it pay any attention to them whatsoever? I am arguing that American Muslims are no more able than American Jews or American Christians to influence IS and shouldn't be treated any differently from members of those religions.

I posted about the NPR story that said yes, fundies like ISIS are influenced by public opinion.

At the extreme, ISIS only cares about other Wahhabis. In this scenario, ISIS needs to win the Wahhabi base--unless you're arguing that virtually all Wahhabis will support ISIS no matter what it does.

More realistically, ISIS needs at least tacit support from the many non-Wahhabi Sunnis in the region.

If Bin Laden started caring about the Sunni on the street and his opinion of al Qaeda violence, then ISIS might too. It might take years for ISIS to get there, but if Bin Laden eventually did. I don't see why mobilizing Muslim public opinion is so fruitless in your eyes.

I assume that you realize that what you are saying really has nothing to do with American Muslims. IS may want support from Wahhabis in the region, but it cares less about Muslims in this country.

Here is a longer answer. I don't know if the NPR story was wrong or if you misunderstood it. But, the way you describe things is not completely accurate. Al-Qaida justified the killing of Muslims when they were more or less collateral damage or if they were actively supporting those Al-Qaida considered to be Islam's enemies. Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who led Al-Qaida in Iraq, on the other hand, actively attacked Muslims that were considered heretics. Zarqawi originally led an independent organization which he then allied with bin Laden. However, the large scale killings conducted by Zarqawi eventually led to a split with bin Laden's al-Qaida because of the bad publicity caused by those killings. Al-Qaida in Iraq became ISIS, ISIL, and then IS.

There is an important difference between IS and al-Qaida. Al-Qaida focused on spectacular attacks aimed at gaining support from Muslims around the world. "Al-Qaida" means "The Base" and bin Laden saw his organization as simply the base, and the success of Islam would come from those outside the base who were inspired by al-Qaida's actions. IS, on the other hand, has concentrated on seizing and ruling territory. As such, al-Qaida, whose strategy depended on support from Muslims all over the world cared about it's image all over the world. IS, on the other hand, only cares about dominating the land it rules. IS may be susceptible to pressures from communities within the land it governs, but not from those well outside those lands. Al-Qaida attempted to use terror to inspire and demonstrate victories for Islam. IS uses terror to demoralize and scare its enemies in order to easier control the area it occupies. This is a very important distinction.

[Anonymous]

Right, nobody thinks IS wants anybody else's approval. IS' success does depend on ordinary Sunnis, though. http://www.npr.org/2014/08/27/343758257/sunni-moderates-may-be-key-to-turning-back-isis-extremists

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Why can't ISIS be influenced by public opinion from other non-Wahhabi Muslims? If ISIS wants power, it has to listen to ordinary Muslims. Why are you arguing that ordinary Muslims, unless they are Wahhabis, are impotent to organize?

IS considers non-Wahhabi Muslims to be heretics who themselves should be killed. Why would it pay any attention to them whatsoever? I am arguing that American Muslims are no more able than American Jews or American Christians to influence IS and shouldn't be treated any differently from members of those religions.

I posted about the NPR story that said yes, fundies like ISIS are influenced by public opinion.

At the extreme, ISIS only cares about other Wahhabis. In this scenario, ISIS needs to win the Wahhabi base--unless you're arguing that virtually all Wahhabis will support ISIS no matter what it does.

More realistically, ISIS needs at least tacit support from the many non-Wahhabi Sunnis in the region.

If Bin Laden started caring about the Sunni on the street and his opinion of al Qaeda violence, then ISIS might too. It might take years for ISIS to get there, but if Bin Laden eventually did. I don't see why mobilizing Muslim public opinion is so fruitless in your eyes.

I assume that you realize that what you are saying really has nothing to do with American Muslims. IS may want support from Wahhabis in the region, but it cares less about Muslims in this country.

Here is a longer answer. I don't know if the NPR story was wrong or if you misunderstood it. But, the way you describe things is not completely accurate. Al-Qaida justified the killing of Muslims when they were more or less collateral damage or if they were actively supporting those Al-Qaida considered to be Islam's enemies. Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who led Al-Qaida in Iraq, on the other hand, actively attacked Muslims that were considered heretics. Zarqawi originally led an independent organization which he then allied with bin Laden. However, the large scale killings conducted by Zarqawi eventually led to a split with bin Laden's al-Qaida because of the bad publicity caused by those killings. Al-Qaida in Iraq became ISIS, ISIL, and then IS.

There is an important difference between IS and al-Qaida. Al-Qaida focused on spectacular attacks aimed at gaining support from Muslims around the world. "Al-Qaida" means "The Base" and bin Laden saw his organization as simply the base, and the success of Islam would come from those outside the base who were inspired by al-Qaida's actions. IS, on the other hand, has concentrated on seizing and ruling territory. As such, al-Qaida, whose strategy depended on support from Muslims all over the world cared about it's image all over the world. IS, on the other hand, only cares about dominating the land it rules. IS may be susceptible to pressures from communities within the land it governs, but not from those well outside those lands. Al-Qaida attempted to use terror to inspire and demonstrate victories for Islam. IS uses terror to demoralize and scare its enemies in order to easier control the area it occupies. This is a very important distinction.

Why couldn't all of this just have been explained on the other thread? I didn't even read it, but if being insulting or ignorant is against the rules on DCUM, there should be a lot of threads locked.

I don't think it's fair to cut people off for having negative opinions about Islam. It would be much more helpful if you could just dispute each claim, as you are doing in THIS thread. I'd also like to hear from the actual Muslims on whose behalf you keep speaking. There must be plenty of Muslims on DCUM, or I'm guessing there are anyway. It would be nice to have THEM speak up (rather than the one or two who seem to be doing all the posting). It would be much more meaningful to hear from regular people who feel the way you say they do, IMO.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:
Why couldn't all of this just have been explained on the other thread? I didn't even read it, but if being insulting or ignorant is against the rules on DCUM, there should be a lot of threads locked.

I don't think it's fair to cut people off for having negative opinions about Islam. It would be much more helpful if you could just dispute each claim, as you are doing in THIS thread. I'd also like to hear from the actual Muslims on whose behalf you keep speaking. There must be plenty of Muslims on DCUM, or I'm guessing there are anyway. It would be nice to have THEM speak up (rather than the one or two who seem to be doing all the posting). It would be much more meaningful to hear from regular people who feel the way you say they do, IMO.

I really didn't intend for this thread to go on so long (didn't really expect for it to start in the first place, for that matter). There are plenty of threads in the religion forum about Islam, most of which have plenty of negative opinions. Strange that you want to hear from Muslims, but not the "one or two" Muslims who have been posting. I could have left the original thread alone and those "one or two" would have responded and you still would not have been happy.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Why couldn't all of this just have been explained on the other thread? I didn't even read it, but if being insulting or ignorant is against the rules on DCUM, there should be a lot of threads locked.

I don't think it's fair to cut people off for having negative opinions about Islam. It would be much more helpful if you could just dispute each claim, as you are doing in THIS thread. I'd also like to hear from the actual Muslims on whose behalf you keep speaking. There must be plenty of Muslims on DCUM, or I'm guessing there are anyway. It would be nice to have THEM speak up (rather than the one or two who seem to be doing all the posting). It would be much more meaningful to hear from regular people who feel the way you say they do, IMO.

I really didn't intend for this thread to go on so long (didn't really expect for it to start in the first place, for that matter). There are plenty of threads in the religion forum about Islam, most of which have plenty of negative opinions. Strange that you want to hear from Muslims, but not the "one or two" Muslims who have been posting. I could have left the original thread alone and those "one or two" would have responded and you still would not have been happy.

I agree with PP. Sorry you're surprised about this thread going on for so long, but I think she has a point. I don't personally find the "one or two" Muslims on that forum very knowledgeable about their own religion outside of how they practice it themselves. But they're still better than you shutting down threads started by non-Muslims and trying to speak for all Muslims here in the feedback forum; why notpost your opinions on those threads and let our resident Muslims speak for themselves.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Why couldn't all of this just have been explained on the other thread? I didn't even read it, but if being insulting or ignorant is against the rules on DCUM, there should be a lot of threads locked.

I don't think it's fair to cut people off for having negative opinions about Islam. It would be much more helpful if you could just dispute each claim, as you are doing in THIS thread. I'd also like to hear from the actual Muslims on whose behalf you keep speaking. There must be plenty of Muslims on DCUM, or I'm guessing there are anyway. It would be nice to have THEM speak up (rather than the one or two who seem to be doing all the posting). It would be much more meaningful to hear from regular people who feel the way you say they do, IMO.

I really didn't intend for this thread to go on so long (didn't really expect for it to start in the first place, for that matter). There are plenty of threads in the religion forum about Islam, most of which have plenty of negative opinions. Strange that you want to hear from Muslims, but not the "one or two" Muslims who have been posting. I could have left the original thread alone and those "one or two" would have responded and you still would not have been happy.

I'm not happy with their responses because I'm not feeling any understanding of how they can live with Islam from what they write. I believe that people are more the same than they are different, and I"m looking for that common ground in their posts and not finding it. I have a feeling there are Muslims going about their business, living normal lives like I am and practicing Islam for a reason they can calmly explain. That's what I'm waiting for.