High schoolers can’t write

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Two different problems being discussed here.

1. Grammar and spelling. Assuming no learning disabilities, that can be refined by reading and by holding to standards. Spelling tests don't improve spelling, and neither does "studying" vocabulary if you don't study prefixes, suffixes, infixes, and roots. Having a kid read what they wrote out loud and summarize it, then fix it, also helps, but it has to be done repeatedly over a long time.

2. Argumentative writing, which is essentially what most academic writing is: using evidence to support theses and sub-points. That will not usually be picked up or refined by reading because most kids don't read that kind of writing outside of assignments. But argumentative writing can be taught as a series of formulas on which you improvise and create as you become more fluid at it, hence the 5P essay (which should, however, be a late-elementary into MS thing, not a HS one).

Reading does not convert into writing. Practice does.

Practice doesn’t help very much. Worksheets and feedback from teachers help a lot.

Who keeps telling folks the above?? It’s this pervasive thinking that does harm. Grammar should be explicitly taught. Affixes and Root words, punctuation purpose, and parts of speech. Students should also be taught the spelling rules. Yes there are rules. With this you can layer in vocabulary.

The above would be helpful for all kids including ELLs and provide them long term improvement in reading and writing.

Spelling rules? In English?

Like "i" before "e" except after "c" or sounding as in "weigh" or "neigh" or just plain "weird"? Such an easy rule! English makes so much sense. Rite, write, wright, um, right?

Or "ough": tough, though, thought, through. Easy peasy!

I'm crying Fowl! Piece out.

Exactly what point do you think you're proving with this post? Because what you've pointed out does not invalidate the PP's point that explicit instruction of grammar and spelling is valuable. The PP didn't say, "The English language has rules with no exceptions and inconsistencies." Furthermore, just because there are exceptions to rules doesn't mean that the rules don't exist or hold value.

[Anonymous]

OP, I hear you. Kid is at Whitman. I just hope she learns to write in college. I’m an editor. I do what I can to help, but it’s shocking how remedial her skills are. She’s a reader and loves to write, but I’ve had to teach her when to use a comma. I and me? It’s and its? They’re and their and there? When did schools stop teaching kids how to diagram sentences?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:You should have been working with them at home OP. Everyone knows that.

Parents shouldn’t be the primary instructor for foundational skills like writing.

Yes they should. If you refuse to stop complaining. It’s part of parenting.

Are you a trained educator? What are you specifically doing with your kids at home to teach them to write properly?

You don’t need to be an educator to teach your kid the basics.

The problem is that this refrain comes up for everything- phonics, spelling, writing, history, math, etc. "You should have been working with your child at home." WTF are they doing all day at school if we're expected to do this much supplementing at night in addition to their assigned homework? If they're not even getting "the basics" at school than what is the point.

Exactly! I'm a prosecutor. I'm protecting you all from criminals committing crimes in your neighborhoods. Then I should also teach all school subjects when I get home? Do the teachers prosecute crimes when they get off of work? GTFOH.

I think you should be a parent and part of being a parent is education. It is your job to help educate your kids and ensure they get what they mean. If you are too busy to spend even 15 minutes a day you have no business having kids.

DP but if you think you can teach your kids all their subjects in even 15 minutes a day you have no business in this conversation.

As a PP said, if parents are expected to provide the education, WTF is the point of sending the kids to school all day?

In preschool and Es we heavily supplemented. If your kids are not strong in a subject and you will not help, stop complaining. We still help out older kids and proof read their papers.

I'm sorry if this is a dumb question- but if your child is receiving mostly As and the teacher says they're doing great, how do you know what they aren't strong at? We supplemented our older DC with phonics before MCPS introduced RGR because the 3-cueing method wasn't working for him. But that was an obvious hole. As he gets older it is less clear to me what he needs- everyone says the curriculum is bad. I don't want to get to high school and find they can't write, but if they are already meeting MCPS grade-level benchmarks what benchmarks should I be using instead to identify the deficiencies?

Again, I'm really sorry if this is a dumb question. I did not grow up in an American educational system, where I went to school teachers were highly respected and did the teaching. My parents were not expected to do all this extra teaching at home....

The new ELA curriculum being implemented this year is very good. It was the one they retired at the end of last year that was bad.

I have a friend who is an MCPS teacher in lower elementary. She hates the new ELA curriculum. She told me the way they’re now forced to teach phonics makes no sense.

Can you briefly explain what it is/how it’s bad? We were planning to transfer to MCPS next year.

She told me that the way the curriculum presents groups of phonics concepts is haphazard and includes little explanation about why various digraphs and blends, for example, operate the way they do in English. She said the kids are expected to just spit out phonetic patterns without really understanding the concepts.

She said the accompanying texts the kids are supposed to read for the lesson include phonics concepts the kids haven’t learned yet, so they aren’t equipped to be able to read the text.

This is for 2nd grade, so they’re very much still in the process of learning to read.

That's because they are starting it for the first time this year. In 2 years the 2nd graders will have had K and 1st with the curriculum and will be in much better shape.

This curriculum is much, much more challenging than the one they used previously. It's going to be a rough transition for kids/teachers used to the slow pace and simpler content from before. But younger kids in particular are really going to benefit in that they will have many years with the new curriculum.

Why can’t they just find a curriculum and stick with it?

It is better to look for something new than to stick with something that all evaluators said was sub-par. Core Knowledge will work. Now they need to stick with this...

[Anonymous]

Does Core Knowledge have a writing piece? I thought it was just a knowledge building curriculum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I hear you. Kid is at Whitman. I just hope she learns to write in college. I’m an editor. I do what I can to help, but it’s shocking how remedial her skills are. She’s a reader and loves to write, but I’ve had to teach her when to use a comma. I and me? It’s and its? They’re and their and there? When did schools stop teaching kids how to diagram sentences?

Don't wait till college for your kid to learn; just hope they will learn. You are an editor, how on earth can't you teach your kid to write? I'm shocked at parents like you who can and will not.

They stopped all that years ago. How did you not notice that in elementary school?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:You should have been working with them at home OP. Everyone knows that.

Parents shouldn’t be the primary instructor for foundational skills like writing.

Yes they should. If you refuse to stop complaining. It’s part of parenting.

Are you a trained educator? What are you specifically doing with your kids at home to teach them to write properly?

You don’t need to be an educator to teach your kid the basics.

The problem is that this refrain comes up for everything- phonics, spelling, writing, history, math, etc. "You should have been working with your child at home." WTF are they doing all day at school if we're expected to do this much supplementing at night in addition to their assigned homework? If they're not even getting "the basics" at school than what is the point.

Exactly! I'm a prosecutor. I'm protecting you all from criminals committing crimes in your neighborhoods. Then I should also teach all school subjects when I get home? Do the teachers prosecute crimes when they get off of work? GTFOH.

I think you should be a parent and part of being a parent is education. It is your job to help educate your kids and ensure they get what they mean. If you are too busy to spend even 15 minutes a day you have no business having kids.

DP but if you think you can teach your kids all their subjects in even 15 minutes a day you have no business in this conversation.

As a PP said, if parents are expected to provide the education, WTF is the point of sending the kids to school all day?

In preschool and Es we heavily supplemented. If your kids are not strong in a subject and you will not help, stop complaining. We still help out older kids and proof read their papers.

Ahh yes. All of those Spanish speaking immigrant mothers should be responsible for proof reading their kids’ English papers.

Again, what exactly do you think the role of the *school* should be in terms of educating children?

Kids can go to teachers and others for extra help. You speak English so stop using them as a talking point NOT to help your kid. Just because they don't speak English doesn't make them bad or uninvolved parents. They can help in other ways.

It’s a simple question that you either can’t or won’t answer:

What do you think the role of the *school* should be in educating children?

NP. I think school should easily be able to teach the 3 R’s to any child who is NT and above average intelligence.

It is shocking that I have to pay $45k to get a school who does this, and allows me to be a parent instead of an academic tutor, but it is what it is.

But yet private schools go through an entire selection process and limit the class sizes to something really small and with very few variables to be able ti accomplish this easy goal of teaching the 3R’s. To boot they charge you 45K and often make families pay for supplies and expect a donation.

We’ve never had to pay a cent for supplies. Donations can be nominal. It’s about participation rate.

You do in the 45K you pay in tuition. For many privates that also doesn’t include the price of transportation, lunch, uniforms(if required), technology fee, etc.

And yes donations can be nominal but most folks aren’t donating only $25.

Of course the supplies are part of what we pay tuition for. I was correcting the PP who said private schools often make people pay for supplies on top of tuition.

At the end of the day, the $40K we pay is well worth it.

Yea you, why are you on the MCPS board?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You should have been working with them at home OP. Everyone knows that.

Parents shouldn’t be the primary instructor for foundational skills like writing.

Yes they should. If you refuse to stop complaining. It’s part of parenting.

Are you a trained educator? What are you specifically doing with your kids at home to teach them to write properly?

You don’t need to be an educator to teach your kid the basics.

The problem is that this refrain comes up for everything- phonics, spelling, writing, history, math, etc. "You should have been working with your child at home." WTF are they doing all day at school if we're expected to do this much supplementing at night in addition to their assigned homework? If they're not even getting "the basics" at school than what is the point.

Exactly! I'm a prosecutor. I'm protecting you all from criminals committing crimes in your neighborhoods. Then I should also teach all school subjects when I get home? Do the teachers prosecute crimes when they get off of work? GTFOH.

I think you should be a parent and part of being a parent is education. It is your job to help educate your kids and ensure they get what they mean. If you are too busy to spend even 15 minutes a day you have no business having kids.

DP but if you think you can teach your kids all their subjects in even 15 minutes a day you have no business in this conversation.

As a PP said, if parents are expected to provide the education, WTF is the point of sending the kids to school all day?

In preschool and Es we heavily supplemented. If your kids are not strong in a subject and you will not help, stop complaining. We still help out older kids and proof read their papers.

Ahh yes. All of those Spanish speaking immigrant mothers should be responsible for proof reading their kids’ English papers.

Again, what exactly do you think the role of the *school* should be in terms of educating children?

Kids can go to teachers and others for extra help. You speak English so stop using them as a talking point NOT to help your kid. Just because they don't speak English doesn't make them bad or uninvolved parents. They can help in other ways.

It’s a simple question that you either can’t or won’t answer:

What do you think the role of the *school* should be in educating children?

NP. I think school should easily be able to teach the 3 R’s to any child who is NT and above average intelligence.

It is shocking that I have to pay $45k to get a school who does this, and allows me to be a parent instead of an academic tutor, but it is what it is.

But yet private schools go through an entire selection process and limit the class sizes to something really small and with very few variables to be able ti accomplish this easy goal of teaching the 3R’s. To boot they charge you 45K and often make families pay for supplies and expect a donation.

We’ve never had to pay a cent for supplies. Donations can be nominal. It’s about participation rate.

You do in the 45K you pay in tuition. For many privates that also doesn’t include the price of transportation, lunch, uniforms(if required), technology fee, etc.

And yes donations can be nominal but most folks aren’t donating only $25.

Of course the supplies are part of what we pay tuition for. I was correcting the PP who said private schools often make people pay for supplies on top of tuition.

At the end of the day, the $40K we pay is well worth it.

Yea you, why are you on the MCPS board?

This is such a tired response.

We all pay property taxes. Our kids should all be able to get a good public education. I send my kid to private school because MCPS is horrible.

But that doesn’t mean I don’t have a reason to care about what happens to MCPS — a system I help pay for and which my kid should be able to use.

So rather than repeating that ad nauseam, maybe engage with the problems this system has.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Does Core Knowledge have a writing piece? I thought it was just a knowledge building curriculum.

It is a comprehensive curriculum, including writing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kids go to Whitman. They are native English speakers. They get all As. Their writing is awful. Poor grammar and punctuation. Circular sentences, pointless paragraphs. In an essay, they don’t know how to build an argument. And they read more than most other kids. I am in shock. How can this be? Anyone else notice this issue with their kids?

Didn't you know, writing is racist. Insisting on proper grammar and writing skills hurts black and brown kids so it is not focused on in MCPS. Oh well, at least they know how to do ice breakers and study circles.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My friends who are high school English teachers and college writing professors have been talking for several years now about the complete decline of basic writing ability they are seeing in students. They say it is abysmal.

Nobody needs this anymore. We have ChatGPT. Better use of time would be to teach prompt writing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You should have been working with them at home OP. Everyone knows that.

Parents shouldn’t be the primary instructor for foundational skills like writing.

Yes they should. If you refuse to stop complaining. It’s part of parenting.

Are you a trained educator? What are you specifically doing with your kids at home to teach them to write properly?

You don’t need to be an educator to teach your kid the basics.

The problem is that this refrain comes up for everything- phonics, spelling, writing, history, math, etc. "You should have been working with your child at home." WTF are they doing all day at school if we're expected to do this much supplementing at night in addition to their assigned homework? If they're not even getting "the basics" at school than what is the point.

Exactly! I'm a prosecutor. I'm protecting you all from criminals committing crimes in your neighborhoods. Then I should also teach all school subjects when I get home? Do the teachers prosecute crimes when they get off of work? GTFOH.

I think you should be a parent and part of being a parent is education. It is your job to help educate your kids and ensure they get what they mean. If you are too busy to spend even 15 minutes a day you have no business having kids.

DP but if you think you can teach your kids all their subjects in even 15 minutes a day you have no business in this conversation.

As a PP said, if parents are expected to provide the education, WTF is the point of sending the kids to school all day?

In preschool and Es we heavily supplemented. If your kids are not strong in a subject and you will not help, stop complaining. We still help out older kids and proof read their papers.

Ahh yes. All of those Spanish speaking immigrant mothers should be responsible for proof reading their kids’ English papers.

Again, what exactly do you think the role of the *school* should be in terms of educating children?

Kids can go to teachers and others for extra help. You speak English so stop using them as a talking point NOT to help your kid. Just because they don't speak English doesn't make them bad or uninvolved parents. They can help in other ways.

It’s a simple question that you either can’t or won’t answer:

What do you think the role of the *school* should be in educating children?

NP. I think school should easily be able to teach the 3 R’s to any child who is NT and above average intelligence.

It is shocking that I have to pay $45k to get a school who does this, and allows me to be a parent instead of an academic tutor, but it is what it is.

But yet private schools go through an entire selection process and limit the class sizes to something really small and with very few variables to be able ti accomplish this easy goal of teaching the 3R’s. To boot they charge you 45K and often make families pay for supplies and expect a donation.

We’ve never had to pay a cent for supplies. Donations can be nominal. It’s about participation rate.

You do in the 45K you pay in tuition. For many privates that also doesn’t include the price of transportation, lunch, uniforms(if required), technology fee, etc.

And yes donations can be nominal but most folks aren’t donating only $25.

Of course the supplies are part of what we pay tuition for. I was correcting the PP who said private schools often make people pay for supplies on top of tuition.

At the end of the day, the $40K we pay is well worth it.

Yea you, why are you on the MCPS board?

This is such a tired response.

We all pay property taxes. Our kids should all be able to get a good public education. I send my kid to private school because MCPS is horrible.

But that doesn’t mean I don’t have a reason to care about what happens to MCPS — a system I help pay for and which my kid should be able to use.

So rather than repeating that ad nauseam, maybe engage with the problems this system has.

Now why would they want to do that? Then they might actually have to acknowledge the system’s failings and do real work!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My friends who are high school English teachers and college writing professors have been talking for several years now about the complete decline of basic writing ability they are seeing in students. They say it is abysmal.

Nobody needs this anymore. We have ChatGPT. Better use of time would be to teach prompt writing.

If that’s what you believe, then you have very limited understanding of the role writing has on brain development and how LLMs, which ChatGPT is, actually work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My friends who are high school English teachers and college writing professors have been talking for several years now about the complete decline of basic writing ability they are seeing in students. They say it is abysmal.

Nobody needs this anymore. We have ChatGPT. Better use of time would be to teach prompt writing.

If that’s what you believe, then you have very limited understanding of the role writing has on brain development and how LLMs, which ChatGPT is, actually work.

Ignore the PP you responded to. She's obviously a troll.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I hear you. Kid is at Whitman. I just hope she learns to write in college. I’m an editor. I do what I can to help, but it’s shocking how remedial her skills are. She’s a reader and loves to write, but I’ve had to teach her when to use a comma. I and me? It’s and its? They’re and their and there? When did schools stop teaching kids how to diagram sentences?

My kid (not McMS) never learned to diagram. Shameful. They have no clue what’s going on structurally in a sentence

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I hear you. Kid is at Whitman. I just hope she learns to write in college. I’m an editor. I do what I can to help, but it’s shocking how remedial her skills are. She’s a reader and loves to write, but I’ve had to teach her when to use a comma. I and me? It’s and its? They’re and their and there? When did schools stop teaching kids how to diagram sentences?

My kid (not McMS) never learned to diagram. Shameful. They have no clue what’s going on structurally in a sentence

Diagramming sentences started to fall out of favor in the 1980s.