another take on AP classes

[Anonymous]

I was at a party this weekend with nearly a dozen parents of high school and college-aged kids (my kids are still in diapers) and I was interested to hear their thoughts on high school classes and college admissions (one parent actually works at a high school in MCPS doing guidance counseling and college application prep). Pretty much all the parents cautioned me about AP classes. One couple talked about how their kid took an AP class in 10th grade and aced it – but that it was really time consuming and draining. She told her parents she didn’t want to take another AP class and instead took all honors classes for the rest of her HS career. The principal and other MCPS administrators contacted the parents relentlessly to try to convince them to push their kid back onto the AP track – b/c apparently the school benefits from the # of kids enrolled in such programs. The parents let their kid take regular honors classes and she ended up with a full-ride for college. Curious to hear what other parents have heard about this.

[Anonymous]

I have preference for I.B. over AP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have preference for I.B. over AP.

Why, PP?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was at a party this weekend with nearly a dozen parents of high school and college-aged kids (my kids are still in diapers) and I was interested to hear their thoughts on high school classes and college admissions (one parent actually works at a high school in MCPS doing guidance counseling and college application prep). Pretty much all the parents cautioned me about AP classes. One couple talked about how their kid took an AP class in 10th grade and aced it – but that it was really time consuming and draining. She told her parents she didn’t want to take another AP class and instead took all honors classes for the rest of her HS career. The principal and other MCPS administrators contacted the parents relentlessly to try to convince them to push their kid back onto the AP track – b/c apparently the school benefits from the # of kids enrolled in such programs. The parents let their kid take regular honors classes and she ended up with a full-ride for college. Curious to hear what other parents have heard about this.

This is true. The rankings that are regularly provided in the Post, etc. are based on # of AP or IB exams given at a school. They don't take into account how many of the students actually got a score high enough for college credit, but just the # of exams given. So of course schools are going to push them because the more they give, the "better" it makes their school look. As for AP and IB, I work at an IB school and the classes are just as rigorous as AP classes. So, don't think that if your student takes IB, their life will be any easier. The other downside to IB is that not all colleges give credit for IB classes. So while students may be well prepared for college by taking IB classes, they may not get any sort of college credit for them. There is something about this in the Post today....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was at a party this weekend with nearly a dozen parents of high school and college-aged kids (my kids are still in diapers) and I was interested to hear their thoughts on high school classes and college admissions (one parent actually works at a high school in MCPS doing guidance counseling and college application prep). Pretty much all the parents cautioned me about AP classes. One couple talked about how their kid took an AP class in 10th grade and aced it – but that it was really time consuming and draining. She told her parents she didn’t want to take another AP class and instead took all honors classes for the rest of her HS career. The principal and other MCPS administrators contacted the parents relentlessly to try to convince them to push their kid back onto the AP track – b/c apparently the school benefits from the # of kids enrolled in such programs. The parents let their kid take regular honors classes and she ended up with a full-ride for college. Curious to hear what other parents have heard about this.

It is true that percent of kids taking AP classes pumps up a schools ranking. This is why MCPS is slowly eliminating honors classes in order to force kids to choose between regular classes and AP.

I think much of this push toward AP is driven by the ranking system and Jay Matthews education writing at the WaPo. He promotes the idea that the school and everyone benefits when kids take AP, even if they don't score well enough on the AP exam to get college credit for the class. There should be public data eleased by school so that parents and others can see how many kids are taking AP classes at which school and what their scores are, broken down by race and SES. The end goal should be getting as many kids as possible to take AP, and also score well enough to get college credit (meaning 4 or 5 at a minimum).

Also the fees surrounding AP exams are ridiculous. Schools make money charging for AP, especially late registration fees, and this extra money is basically not supervised.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was at a party this weekend with nearly a dozen parents of high school and college-aged kids (my kids are still in diapers) and I was interested to hear their thoughts on high school classes and college admissions (one parent actually works at a high school in MCPS doing guidance counseling and college application prep). Pretty much all the parents cautioned me about AP classes. One couple talked about how their kid took an AP class in 10th grade and aced it – but that it was really time consuming and draining. She told her parents she didn’t want to take another AP class and instead took all honors classes for the rest of her HS career. The principal and other MCPS administrators contacted the parents relentlessly to try to convince them to push their kid back onto the AP track – b/c apparently the school benefits from the # of kids enrolled in such programs. The parents let their kid take regular honors classes and she ended up with a full-ride for college. Curious to hear what other parents have heard about this.

It is true that percent of kids taking AP classes pumps up a schools ranking. This is why MCPS is slowly eliminating honors classes in order to force kids to choose between regular classes and AP.

I think much of this push toward AP is driven by the ranking system and Jay Matthews education writing at the WaPo. He promotes the idea that the school and everyone benefits when kids take AP, even if they don't score well enough on the AP exam to get college credit for the class. There should be public data eleased by school so that parents and others can see how many kids are taking AP classes at which school and what their scores are, broken down by race and SES. The end goal should be getting as many kids as possible to take AP, and also score well enough to get college credit (meaning 4 or 5 at a minimum).

Also the fees surrounding AP exams are ridiculous. Schools make money charging for AP, especially late registration fees, and this extra money is basically not supervised.

It is public data that is usually included in the school improvement plan. Ask your principal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have preference for I.B. over AP.

Why, PP?

Because I have a sense of AP classes being more about a notch in the student's (or the school's) belt than an intellectual endeavor that goes in any way above and beyond an "honors" class. Whereas, the IB curriculum is exactly that - a full academic curriculum, which is designed to prepare the student for collegiate level work and the study habits to succeed. I've been given to understand that admissions directors actually prefer seeing IB applicants over AP, but it isn't yet as well-known and hasn't filtered down to the (secondary) schools as well. There's a lot of money involved in AP exams, and I think the economics behind it explains its popularity more than actual intellectual achievement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was at a party this weekend with nearly a dozen parents of high school and college-aged kids (my kids are still in diapers) and I was interested to hear their thoughts on high school classes and college admissions (one parent actually works at a high school in MCPS doing guidance counseling and college application prep). Pretty much all the parents cautioned me about AP classes. One couple talked about how their kid took an AP class in 10th grade and aced it – but that it was really time consuming and draining. She told her parents she didn’t want to take another AP class and instead took all honors classes for the rest of her HS career. The principal and other MCPS administrators contacted the parents relentlessly to try to convince them to push their kid back onto the AP track – b/c apparently the school benefits from the # of kids enrolled in such programs. The parents let their kid take regular honors classes and she ended up with a full-ride for college. Curious to hear what other parents have heard about this.

This is true. The rankings that are regularly provided in the Post, etc. are based on # of AP or IB exams given at a school. They don't take into account how many of the students actually got a score high enough for college credit, but just the # of exams given. So of course schools are going to push them because the more they give, the "better" it makes their school look. As for AP and IB, I work at an IB school and the classes are just as rigorous as AP classes. So, don't think that if your student takes IB, their life will be any easier. The other downside to IB is that not all colleges give credit for IB classes. So while students may be well prepared for college by taking IB classes, they may not get any sort of college credit for them. There is something about this in the Post today....

Most of the elite, competitive, "big name" schools don't give credit for either one. They are just ways for the students to distinguish themselves in the application process. Don't think that high school AP bio is going to let you test out of your science requirement at Harvard, Yale, Duke, or Stanford! Having said that, the student with the IB degree from HS probably has a more interesting story to tell about his/her academic background upon entering college. Furthermore, the student is arguably better prepared to succeed at the college level. But neither one should really suffer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have preference for I.B. over AP.

Why, PP?

Because I have a sense of AP classes being more about a notch in the student's (or the school's) belt than an intellectual endeavor that goes in any way above and beyond an "honors" class. Whereas, the IB curriculum is exactly that - a full academic curriculum, which is designed to prepare the student for collegiate level work and the study habits to succeed. I've been given to understand that admissions directors actually prefer seeing IB applicants over AP, but it isn't yet as well-known and hasn't filtered down to the (secondary) schools as well. There's a lot of money involved in AP exams, and I think the economics behind it explains its popularity more than actual intellectual achievement.

You make some interesting points, PP. The IB program is indeed a curriculum - internationally based. It was, I believe, created for the children of diplomats with gaps in their knowledge base due to constantly being uprooted. AP courses, on the other hand, are much more technical in nature, and those taking the courses are also able to fit electives into their schedules. Most students who prefer AP over IB desire a bit more freedom in their course selection.

Both offer students training in in-depth analysis of a subject. IB, however, provides a liberal arts education which is interdisciplinary in its approach. Unfortunately, most colleges are slow in accepting credits for IB courses. However, with the increase in programs across the board (from elementary - PYP - through high school -MYP and IB), it's becoming more mainstream.

From a teacher's perspective (at least mine), I admit to having a preference for AP courses b/c of their technical nature. But that's a personal choice. I am always amazed, however, at our IB students who receive 5s on AP tests w/o ever taking one course.

[Anonymous]

It might depend on the student and subject.

My DD didn't have too much of a problem being "drained" (as you say OP) from AP Spanish, but my son with AP Biology had a much tougher time - probably because the exams were different in format (and preparation). My son and daughter both have different approaches to learning and study differently. They are also not 10th graders (maybe a sophmore is too "young" for such a caliber??). Not to mention that Spanish and Biology are two very different subjects.

Any hint as to what particular AP class was discussed at the party, OP?

[Anonymous]

The end goal should be getting as many kids as possible to take AP, and also score well enough to get college credit (meaning 4 or 5 at a minimum).

I'm confused -- why do you think the goal should be to get as many kids as possible to take AP classes? The rest of your post doesn't necessarily comport (or maybe it does and I'm not reading it correctly).

[Anonymous]

OP Here: I think the parent said it was AP government (or some sort of social science). To clarify the spirit of my initial post: I was prompted to post this after reading a post on the DCUM listserv from a parent contemplating a French immersion program for her 5 or 6 year old and worrying how it would impact future AP classes. Posts like that illustrate that perhaps some of us are setting unrealistic goals for our little ones and creating stress and pressure that really isn't necessary. The point of my initial post was to illustrate that a kid who took only one AP class and a smattering of honors courses did well enough in high school to get a full scholarship to college (where she made dean's list for her first semester). Isn't that good enough? We all want what is best for our children, but maybe some of us need to tone it down a notch.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The end goal should be getting as many kids as possible to take AP, and also score well enough to get college credit (meaning 4 or 5 at a minimum).

I'm confused -- why do you think the goal should be to get as many kids as possible to take AP classes? The rest of your post doesn't necessarily comport (or maybe it does and I'm not reading it correctly).

It is the goal of most school systems to increase participation in these classes?

Why?

Studies show that even if kids don't do well in the AP courses, they are better prepared for college. At least that's what the AP coordinator at our school said. Furthermore, there's a need for open enrollment in order to close the achievement gap (white participation versus minority participation). Finally, it does make the schools look good, especially when they're ranked by participation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The end goal should be getting as many kids as possible to take AP, and also score well enough to get college credit (meaning 4 or 5 at a minimum).

I'm confused -- why do you think the goal should be to get as many kids as possible to take AP classes? The rest of your post doesn't necessarily comport (or maybe it does and I'm not reading it correctly).

It is the goal of most school systems to increase participation in these classes?

Why?

Studies show that even if kids don't do well in the AP courses, they are better prepared for college. At least that's what the AP coordinator at our school said. Furthermore, there's a need for open enrollment in order to close the achievement gap (white participation versus minority participation). Finally, it does make the schools look good, especially when they're ranked by participation.

I agree with what you are saying and think that everyone who is qualified should be encouraged to take AP classes. However, there have been articles written by some AP teachers who say that the curriculum is being "dumbed down" because students are being put in AP classes who are not prepared to take them. That leaves them at a disadvantage because they are not prepared and struggle in the class and it also doesn't help students who are qualified because they are not being taught as well as they could be. I teach at an IB school and I notice something else happening at our school. Pretty much any student who shows the least bit of academic motivation is encouraged to take pre-IB or IB classes. This leads to somewhat of a tracking system because the students who are left are generally those students who are not as academically motivated for various reasons and they tend to be together in all the same "regular" classes. These classes are somewhat looked down upon by other students and even some teachers because the students are maybe not as well behaved or motivated. Consequently, many teachers don't want to teach them and they are left for inexperienced teachers who are new. This doesn't make sense to me because these students the ones who need the most help and should have the best teachers! But it doesn't happen this way. So, while I am all for students getting a variety of classes and taking classes that are challenging to them, I do think it creates a divide within the school for those who are seen as "qualified" to take advanced classes and those who are not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The end goal should be getting as many kids as possible to take AP, and also score well enough to get college credit (meaning 4 or 5 at a minimum).

I'm confused -- why do you think the goal should be to get as many kids as possible to take AP classes? The rest of your post doesn't necessarily comport (or maybe it does and I'm not reading it correctly).

Sorry, I'm not too clear. I don't like the push to just get as many kids to take AP as possible. I think the goal should be to increase the number of kids who are getting scores high enough to place out of college courses. I think the "everyone for AP" approach is actually a disservice to minority students -- administrators only care if they take the class, not if they score high enough on the exam to place out, which could be a huge financial boon to low SES students.

I guess it's my personal bias, I'd like to see my child spend time to do one thing really well, rather than a bunch of classes where she's constantly stretched and not doing her best at any of them. I think one thing well is a better lesson. If you can do more than one class really well, super .....