another take on AP classes

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

It is public data that is usually included in the school improvement plan. Ask your principal.

I shouldn't have to ask the principal. All high schools, or the county itself, should provide the data, publicly accessible on the web, so that prospective parents and students and reporters can analyze how well the school is performing in AP.

BTW, many schools don't make SIPs public. I think these should be posted on each school's web also, for the same reasons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It is public data that is usually included in the school improvement plan. Ask your principal.

I shouldn't have to ask the principal. All high schools, or the county itself, should provide the data, publicly accessible on the web, so that prospective parents and students and reporters can analyze how well the school is performing in AP.

BTW, many schools don't make SIPs public. I think these should be posted on each school's web also, for the same reasons.

No, you shouldn't have to ask. I am not disagreeing with you. But there are many schools who don't feel the need to "advertise" (for lack of a better word) their data b/c the school is under scrutiny by the community sup't.

I'm all for an open atmosphere, and many schools do indeed follow that policy. But if yours doesn't, then ask. FWIW, a school improvement team should be made up of a variety of stakeholders - administrators, teachers, business partners, students and parents. So if you would like to change the way things are done, ask to be involved on the SIP. It's not unusual for parents to spend a week of their time during meetings with the school team over the summer to review the SIP, analyze data and make changes.

If you're this knowledgeable (and you really seem to be on the ball), then share your expertise. There are many parents who don't even know what a SIP is. Perhaps you could suggest (and oversee) a link on the school's web page that highlights the SIP?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The end goal should be getting as many kids as possible to take AP, and also score well enough to get college credit (meaning 4 or 5 at a minimum).

I'm confused -- why do you think the goal should be to get as many kids as possible to take AP classes? The rest of your post doesn't necessarily comport (or maybe it does and I'm not reading it correctly).

It is the goal of most school systems to increase participation in these classes?

Why?

Studies show that even if kids don't do well in the AP courses, they are better prepared for college. At least that's what the AP coordinator at our school said. Furthermore, there's a need for open enrollment in order to close the achievement gap (white participation versus minority participation). Finally, it does make the schools look good, especially when they're ranked by participation.

I agree with what you are saying and think that everyone who is qualified should be encouraged to take AP classes. However, there have been articles written by some AP teachers who say that the curriculum is being "dumbed down" because students are being put in AP classes who are not prepared to take them. That leaves them at a disadvantage because they are not prepared and struggle in the class and it also doesn't help students who are qualified because they are not being taught as well as they could be. I teach at an IB school and I notice something else happening at our school. Pretty much any student who shows the least bit of academic motivation is encouraged to take pre-IB or IB classes. This leads to somewhat of a tracking system because the students who are left are generally those students who are not as academically motivated for various reasons and they tend to be together in all the same "regular" classes. These classes are somewhat looked down upon by other students and even some teachers because the students are maybe not as well behaved or motivated. Consequently, many teachers don't want to teach them and they are left for inexperienced teachers who are new. This doesn't make sense to me because these students the ones who need the most help and should have the best teachers! But it doesn't happen this way. So, while I am all for students getting a variety of classes and taking classes that are challenging to them, I do think it creates a divide within the school for those who are seen as "qualified" to take advanced classes and those who are not.

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Sorry, I'm not too clear. I don't like the push to just get as many kids to take AP as possible. I think the goal should be to increase the number of kids who are getting scores high enough to place out of college courses. I think the "everyone for AP" approach is actually a disservice to minority students -- administrators only care if they take the class, not if they score high enough on the exam to place out, which could be a huge financial boon to low SES students.

I guess it's my personal bias, I'd like to see my child spend time to do one thing really well, rather than a bunch of classes where she's constantly stretched and not doing her best at any of them. I think one thing well is a better lesson. If you can do more than one class really well, super .....

Let me clarify. I am only repeating what the system is preaching - their justification for open enrollment and increasing enrollment. While I agree somewhat with the open door policy, I, as a teacher, have also seen a dumbing down of content. Typically, at my school, we recruit for English by examining PSAT scores. High scorers are recruited and of course can always say no. I agree with this process.

On the other hand, if a student wishes to take an AP course or to enroll in the IB program, and if s/he is not academically ready, odds are that the student fails and is encouraged to take honors instead. I disagree with this, as I believe that honors should be just as rigorous as AP or IB. But this is not the case.

As I see it, these analytical skills need to be nurtured starting at a very young age. But as most educators know, abstract thinking skills do not kick in at the same time. Without them, there is no sense in taking such demanding courses.

Now, whether due to a flaw in the system or some societal injustice, there is an achievement gap; minorities are not represented in these upper level courses. So, ideally, they should be brought up to speed. But with budget constraints, few of these classes exist. So it's ultimately up to the IB or AP teachers to raise their achievement while also keeping standards high, which is close to impossible w/o suffering a heart attack due to stress!

FWIW, I am trained and experienced in AP language and literature but have used my knowledge to redesign curriculum (w/in acceptable parameters) for my lower level students. It is fun and definitely challenging. But what seems to work well as incentive is to tell them that what they're learning is what my juniors and seniors are learning. Some have gone on to challenge themselves; others have chosen the "regular" route, which is fine as long as they're working to their potential.

I, too, believe that it's best to do well in one area as opposed to being stretched thin among several. And I'm all for vocational ed. But with this need to push everyone to take the college route, we're also losing (and alienating) students who are gifted in other ways.

[Anonymous]

Comuing from the teacher prospective... I think AP courses are extremely difficult, but I would *never* want to place my child in an IB program past middle school. My daughter was in IB up until we moved over the summer, and I honestly hated it. The teachers hated it too.

AP courses are great even if your child doesn't do particularly well in them. They 'look' better if a child has a C in that class than an A in a regular course. Also, your child only needs a three on the exam to pass out of a Gen Ed requirement at most schools.

They are fairly rigorous, but some teachers add on extra work just so that they have a higher percentage of students with 5's v 4's and 3's.

AP Histories, AP Maths, and AP Sciences tend to be more difficult than the languages.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Comuing from the teacher prospective... I think AP courses are extremely difficult, but I would *never* want to place my child in an IB program past middle school. My daughter was in IB up until we moved over the summer, and I honestly hated it. The teachers hated it too.

AP courses are great even if your child doesn't do particularly well in them. They 'look' better if a child has a C in that class than an A in a regular course. Also, your child only needs a three on the exam to pass out of a Gen Ed requirement at most schools.

They are fairly rigorous, but some teachers add on extra work just so that they have a higher percentage of students with 5's v 4's and 3's.

AP Histories, AP Maths, and AP Sciences tend to be more difficult than the languages.

I don't understand your points. I am an AP English literature and language teacher, and although I agree with your statement on rigor, I am confused about adding on "extra work just so that they have a higher percentage of students with 5's v 4's and 3's." I don't think that piling on the work can make the difference between a 3 and a 4.

Furthermore, in terms of difficulty, why do you assume that history, math and science tests are more difficult than language tests (as in foreign language?)? English language is extremely difficult, too. A 4, in fact, is a rare score.

Finally, why don't you like IB? For many students, it's a wonderful program if they're willing to put in the time and effort. It's well rounded, its content is rigorous, and teachers expect students to be highly analytical. Also, the Middle Years Programme (IB at the middle school level) is VERY different from the IB diploma program at the high school level. So in terms of "continuing," students actually don't. They really end up beginning the true IB course work in grade 11. I think your experience is rare, especially if the "teachers hated it [IB] too." Something was not right in how the program was developed at that school. All the IB teachers I know - my husband included - love the program and often recommend it to students who have the initiative to work to their full potential.

[Anonymous]

"full ride to college" - full ride to where? That makes a huge difference.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Comuing from the teacher prospective... I think AP courses are extremely difficult, but I would *never* want to place my child in an IB program past middle school. My daughter was in IB up until we moved over the summer, and I honestly hated it. The teachers hated it too.

AP courses are great even if your child doesn't do particularly well in them. They 'look' better if a child has a C in that class than an A in a regular course. Also, your child only needs a three on the exam to pass out of a Gen Ed requirement at most schools.

They are fairly rigorous, but some teachers add on extra work just so that they have a higher percentage of students with 5's v 4's and 3's.

AP Histories, AP Maths, and AP Sciences tend to be more difficult than the languages.

There are several things I don't agree with here, but let's start with passing out of a Gen Ed requirement.

Look, getting a 5 on AP History may let you test out of a "Gen Ed requirement" at, say, the University of Maryland. However, if your DC is gunning for an elite school then scoring well on AP exams is the bare minimum to get you in the door. As a PP stated, it isn't going to free up any credit hours at Harvard, Yale, Duke or Stanford.

Secondly, if your DC wants an elite college education, the rigorous and well-rounded curriculum of the IB is much better preparation for the classwork, academic expectations, and competition from other students than AP classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would *never* want to place my child in an IB program past middle school. My daughter was in IB up until we moved over the summer, and I honestly hated it. The teachers hated it too.

The students, parents, and teachers hated it? Wow - good thing you left. Sounds like the school was doing a terrible job all the way around. If everybody hates one of the best college prep curricula available then you're definitely doing it wrong!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Look, getting a 5 on AP History may let you test out of a "Gen Ed requirement" at, say, the University of Maryland. However, if your DC is gunning for an elite school then scoring well on AP exams is the bare minimum to get you in the door. As a PP stated, it isn't going to free up any credit hours at Harvard, Yale, Duke or Stanford.

Could someone who knows how this works please explain. I got a 5 on an AP exam and got two course credits at a highly selective college, but that was a while ago. Has this changed? Is a 5 on an AP exam just enough to get you out of freshman English at an Ivy League or similar school? A friend entered Harvard as a sophomore because he had so many AP credits (plus he is a genius) - is this no longer possible?