Donnie Dumptruck says Mar-A-Lago's been searched by the FBI

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Trump is the embodiment of narcissism. He has bragged time after time that he has the power to declassify sua sponte. So why should we naively think that he has not exercised this power — at least in his own mind — through the mere the act of removing them to MAL, as he has said repeatedly? Kash Patel likewise has said as much. Trump keeps repeating this because like any narcissist he can’t help himself and doesn’t believe he did anything wrong by sharing the informatuon once the materials were “declassified.” Just as with his sharing a photo of the Iranian launch site. It’s the ultimate tell. There’s no need to “declassify” something unless you plan to use it for some purpose.

Trump is nothing if not transactional. He only does something if it benefits him in some way? Well, it’s not too hard to envision a number of ways the magicsl power to declassify could be used for his benefit. He didn’t want to relinquish control over these materials even after DOJ came to get them pursuant to a grand jury subpoena and allowed one or more of his lawyers to provide a false certification in violation of 18 USC s. 1001.

He's shown no evidence to the special master (or anyone else) of having done so

Even if they were declassified, he still doesn't get to keep them

Why then keep dancing around the issue? There has to be a cogent strategy motivating repeated reference in his filings to something that on its face seems absurd and is flatly contradicted by the Obama Exrcutive Order. Why undercut your credibility with Dearie and the 11th Circuit only to be called out for it. Are they just placating a mercurial client? Seems foolish if so.

Declassification would be a defense if he is charged with divulging state secrets. The are what’s going on. They are going to preserve the defense as long as they can, and muddy the media space with BS theories about his power to declassify.

And yet he peremptorily boxed himself in by asking Cannon to direct a special master to make determinations as to declassification in the context of relief under Rule 41(g).

Well it was worth a shot. It doesn’t stop him from making the argument at trial.

You need actual admissible evidence to back up the argument. Dearie all but laughed at him, as did the appellate panel. Love to see the jury instructions in that issue.

Of course—I’m sure he can get one or two people to attest he waived his magic wand and declassified everything that he ever saw. Right? *crickets*

But then what? The Espionage Act doesn't require that the information is classified, it just requires the information be damaging.

That's sort of true (it also has to be "closely held" and related to the military or national defense), but the classification issue is closely tied into this because declassification typically means 1) the president or authorized official has determined it is not damaging and 2) it is no longer closely held. Here's an excellent explanation from a former CIA lawyer:

Just because twitter guys says he’s a former CIA lawyer doesn’t mean he’s got this entirely right. There is indeed a process for classification that produces records so people know what is classified and what isn’t. Like I said before, a sitting president can divulge whatever info he wants when he’s the president—-doesn’t mean everyone else can divulge until the records are declassified. When he stopped being president he lost the right to possess or divulge classified information. It remains classified whether he waived a magic wand, shared a screenshot or whatever, if he didn’t engage in the process to actually declassify it.

I'm waiting for you to link to the EO, regulation, statute, etc. that describes this process. Happy to engage further once you provide that.

Why don’t you link to the EO, regulation, statute, etc that says an ex president can declassify anything?

There is no such rule, and I never claimed there was. But thank you for your admission that you got nothing.

Look, I'm not defending Trump at all. I just don't buy that this is some easy issue when you're talking about a former president. Luckily, I am certain the experienced prosecutors realize it is not easy and will make their charging decisions accordingly. If they charge him under the Espionage Act, he will claim he declassified the documents. If the prosecutors say "but you didn't follow the process," the judge is going to say "show me the process and what steps you allege he didn't follow" and they will be left their with their hats in the hands. The better response will be, "no, you didn't, you have no evidence of it, and we have evidence you did not." If they can't do that, they won't charge Espionage Act and, if they proceed, with use other statutes like obstruction.

You are overcomplicating a simple issue. In any case where the POTUS reveals classified info there is a witness or record. Something happening in his own mind cannot be proven. It is not a valid legal defense if it cannot be cross examined.

Trump can always call Turley for his expert opinions.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Trump is the embodiment of narcissism. He has bragged time after time that he has the power to declassify sua sponte. So why should we naively think that he has not exercised this power — at least in his own mind — through the mere the act of removing them to MAL, as he has said repeatedly? Kash Patel likewise has said as much. Trump keeps repeating this because like any narcissist he can’t help himself and doesn’t believe he did anything wrong by sharing the informatuon once the materials were “declassified.” Just as with his sharing a photo of the Iranian launch site. It’s the ultimate tell. There’s no need to “declassify” something unless you plan to use it for some purpose.

Trump is nothing if not transactional. He only does something if it benefits him in some way? Well, it’s not too hard to envision a number of ways the magicsl power to declassify could be used for his benefit. He didn’t want to relinquish control over these materials even after DOJ came to get them pursuant to a grand jury subpoena and allowed one or more of his lawyers to provide a false certification in violation of 18 USC s. 1001.

He's shown no evidence to the special master (or anyone else) of having done so

Even if they were declassified, he still doesn't get to keep them

Why then keep dancing around the issue? There has to be a cogent strategy motivating repeated reference in his filings to something that on its face seems absurd and is flatly contradicted by the Obama Exrcutive Order. Why undercut your credibility with Dearie and the 11th Circuit only to be called out for it. Are they just placating a mercurial client? Seems foolish if so.

Declassification would be a defense if he is charged with divulging state secrets. The are what’s going on. They are going to preserve the defense as long as they can, and muddy the media space with BS theories about his power to declassify.

And yet he peremptorily boxed himself in by asking Cannon to direct a special master to make determinations as to declassification in the context of relief under Rule 41(g).

Well it was worth a shot. It doesn’t stop him from making the argument at trial.

You need actual admissible evidence to back up the argument. Dearie all but laughed at him, as did the appellate panel. Love to see the jury instructions in that issue.

Of course—I’m sure he can get one or two people to attest he waived his magic wand and declassified everything that he ever saw. Right? *crickets*

But then what? The Espionage Act doesn't require that the information is classified, it just requires the information be damaging.

That's sort of true (it also has to be "closely held" and related to the military or national defense), but the classification issue is closely tied into this because declassification typically means 1) the president or authorized official has determined it is not damaging and 2) it is no longer closely held. Here's an excellent explanation from a former CIA lawyer:

Just because twitter guys says he’s a former CIA lawyer doesn’t mean he’s got this entirely right. There is indeed a process for classification that produces records so people know what is classified and what isn’t. Like I said before, a sitting president can divulge whatever info he wants when he’s the president—-doesn’t mean everyone else can divulge until the records are declassified. When he stopped being president he lost the right to possess or divulge classified information. It remains classified whether he waived a magic wand, shared a screenshot or whatever, if he didn’t engage in the process to actually declassify it.

I'm waiting for you to link to the EO, regulation, statute, etc. that describes this process. Happy to engage further once you provide that.

Knock yourself out
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/WCPD-2003-03-31/pdf/WCPD-2003-03-31-Pg359.pdf

The PP doesn’t want to read that, he just wants to muddy the waters some more. Just because the rules didn’t apply to trump when he was president doesn’t mean that they don’t apply to him now. The documents were marked, he was warned, he was given an opportunity to return them, he refused. And he has refused to present any evidence that he had a right to have them after he left office, or that they were ever declassified before he did whatever else he did with them after he left office.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Trump is the embodiment of narcissism. He has bragged time after time that he has the power to declassify sua sponte. So why should we naively think that he has not exercised this power — at least in his own mind — through the mere the act of removing them to MAL, as he has said repeatedly? Kash Patel likewise has said as much. Trump keeps repeating this because like any narcissist he can’t help himself and doesn’t believe he did anything wrong by sharing the informatuon once the materials were “declassified.” Just as with his sharing a photo of the Iranian launch site. It’s the ultimate tell. There’s no need to “declassify” something unless you plan to use it for some purpose.

Trump is nothing if not transactional. He only does something if it benefits him in some way? Well, it’s not too hard to envision a number of ways the magicsl power to declassify could be used for his benefit. He didn’t want to relinquish control over these materials even after DOJ came to get them pursuant to a grand jury subpoena and allowed one or more of his lawyers to provide a false certification in violation of 18 USC s. 1001.

He's shown no evidence to the special master (or anyone else) of having done so

Even if they were declassified, he still doesn't get to keep them

Why then keep dancing around the issue? There has to be a cogent strategy motivating repeated reference in his filings to something that on its face seems absurd and is flatly contradicted by the Obama Exrcutive Order. Why undercut your credibility with Dearie and the 11th Circuit only to be called out for it. Are they just placating a mercurial client? Seems foolish if so.

Declassification would be a defense if he is charged with divulging state secrets. The are what’s going on. They are going to preserve the defense as long as they can, and muddy the media space with BS theories about his power to declassify.

And yet he peremptorily boxed himself in by asking Cannon to direct a special master to make determinations as to declassification in the context of relief under Rule 41(g).

Well it was worth a shot. It doesn’t stop him from making the argument at trial.

You need actual admissible evidence to back up the argument. Dearie all but laughed at him, as did the appellate panel. Love to see the jury instructions in that issue.

Of course—I’m sure he can get one or two people to attest he waived his magic wand and declassified everything that he ever saw. Right? *crickets*

But then what? The Espionage Act doesn't require that the information is classified, it just requires the information be damaging.

That's sort of true (it also has to be "closely held" and related to the military or national defense), but the classification issue is closely tied into this because declassification typically means 1) the president or authorized official has determined it is not damaging and 2) it is no longer closely held. Here's an excellent explanation from a former CIA lawyer:

Just because twitter guys says he’s a former CIA lawyer doesn’t mean he’s got this entirely right. There is indeed a process for classification that produces records so people know what is classified and what isn’t. Like I said before, a sitting president can divulge whatever info he wants when he’s the president—-doesn’t mean everyone else can divulge until the records are declassified. When he stopped being president he lost the right to possess or divulge classified information. It remains classified whether he waived a magic wand, shared a screenshot or whatever, if he didn’t engage in the process to actually declassify it.

I'm waiting for you to link to the EO, regulation, statute, etc. that describes this process. Happy to engage further once you provide that.

Knock yourself out
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/WCPD-2003-03-31/pdf/WCPD-2003-03-31-Pg359.pdf

The fact that you linked to an EO that was expressly revoked in 2009 tells me all I need to know about your expertise in this area.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Trump is the embodiment of narcissism. He has bragged time after time that he has the power to declassify sua sponte. So why should we naively think that he has not exercised this power — at least in his own mind — through the mere the act of removing them to MAL, as he has said repeatedly? Kash Patel likewise has said as much. Trump keeps repeating this because like any narcissist he can’t help himself and doesn’t believe he did anything wrong by sharing the informatuon once the materials were “declassified.” Just as with his sharing a photo of the Iranian launch site. It’s the ultimate tell. There’s no need to “declassify” something unless you plan to use it for some purpose.

Trump is nothing if not transactional. He only does something if it benefits him in some way? Well, it’s not too hard to envision a number of ways the magicsl power to declassify could be used for his benefit. He didn’t want to relinquish control over these materials even after DOJ came to get them pursuant to a grand jury subpoena and allowed one or more of his lawyers to provide a false certification in violation of 18 USC s. 1001.

He's shown no evidence to the special master (or anyone else) of having done so

Even if they were declassified, he still doesn't get to keep them

Why then keep dancing around the issue? There has to be a cogent strategy motivating repeated reference in his filings to something that on its face seems absurd and is flatly contradicted by the Obama Exrcutive Order. Why undercut your credibility with Dearie and the 11th Circuit only to be called out for it. Are they just placating a mercurial client? Seems foolish if so.

Declassification would be a defense if he is charged with divulging state secrets. The are what’s going on. They are going to preserve the defense as long as they can, and muddy the media space with BS theories about his power to declassify.

And yet he peremptorily boxed himself in by asking Cannon to direct a special master to make determinations as to declassification in the context of relief under Rule 41(g).

Well it was worth a shot. It doesn’t stop him from making the argument at trial.

You need actual admissible evidence to back up the argument. Dearie all but laughed at him, as did the appellate panel. Love to see the jury instructions in that issue.

Of course—I’m sure he can get one or two people to attest he waived his magic wand and declassified everything that he ever saw. Right? *crickets*

But then what? The Espionage Act doesn't require that the information is classified, it just requires the information be damaging.

That's sort of true (it also has to be "closely held" and related to the military or national defense), but the classification issue is closely tied into this because declassification typically means 1) the president or authorized official has determined it is not damaging and 2) it is no longer closely held. Here's an excellent explanation from a former CIA lawyer:

Just because twitter guys says he’s a former CIA lawyer doesn’t mean he’s got this entirely right. There is indeed a process for classification that produces records so people know what is classified and what isn’t. Like I said before, a sitting president can divulge whatever info he wants when he’s the president—-doesn’t mean everyone else can divulge until the records are declassified. When he stopped being president he lost the right to possess or divulge classified information. It remains classified whether he waived a magic wand, shared a screenshot or whatever, if he didn’t engage in the process to actually declassify it.

I'm waiting for you to link to the EO, regulation, statute, etc. that describes this process. Happy to engage further once you provide that.

Twitter guy is conflating the power the president has to say whatever he wants about whatever he wants, with the actual management and laws protecting classified information that cover everyone else. Presidents can wholesale send classified documents to whomever but no one else can, unless it’s declassified.

Remember the weird clusterfk after he shared Israeli secrets in the Oval with the Russians? No one could talk about it because the information was still classified. He wasn’t subject to the rules that everyone else is subject to, then. Now he is. It’s fairly simple.

Sometimes lawyers get tunnel vision when they have expertise about a specific area of the law…miss the forest from the trees if you will.

That’s alot of verbiage to say you don’t know which “management and laws” control.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Trump is the embodiment of narcissism. He has bragged time after time that he has the power to declassify sua sponte. So why should we naively think that he has not exercised this power — at least in his own mind — through the mere the act of removing them to MAL, as he has said repeatedly? Kash Patel likewise has said as much. Trump keeps repeating this because like any narcissist he can’t help himself and doesn’t believe he did anything wrong by sharing the informatuon once the materials were “declassified.” Just as with his sharing a photo of the Iranian launch site. It’s the ultimate tell. There’s no need to “declassify” something unless you plan to use it for some purpose.

Trump is nothing if not transactional. He only does something if it benefits him in some way? Well, it’s not too hard to envision a number of ways the magicsl power to declassify could be used for his benefit. He didn’t want to relinquish control over these materials even after DOJ came to get them pursuant to a grand jury subpoena and allowed one or more of his lawyers to provide a false certification in violation of 18 USC s. 1001.

He's shown no evidence to the special master (or anyone else) of having done so

Even if they were declassified, he still doesn't get to keep them

Why then keep dancing around the issue? There has to be a cogent strategy motivating repeated reference in his filings to something that on its face seems absurd and is flatly contradicted by the Obama Exrcutive Order. Why undercut your credibility with Dearie and the 11th Circuit only to be called out for it. Are they just placating a mercurial client? Seems foolish if so.

Declassification would be a defense if he is charged with divulging state secrets. The are what’s going on. They are going to preserve the defense as long as they can, and muddy the media space with BS theories about his power to declassify.

And yet he peremptorily boxed himself in by asking Cannon to direct a special master to make determinations as to declassification in the context of relief under Rule 41(g).

Well it was worth a shot. It doesn’t stop him from making the argument at trial.

You need actual admissible evidence to back up the argument. Dearie all but laughed at him, as did the appellate panel. Love to see the jury instructions in that issue.

Of course—I’m sure he can get one or two people to attest he waived his magic wand and declassified everything that he ever saw. Right? *crickets*

But then what? The Espionage Act doesn't require that the information is classified, it just requires the information be damaging.

That's sort of true (it also has to be "closely held" and related to the military or national defense), but the classification issue is closely tied into this because declassification typically means 1) the president or authorized official has determined it is not damaging and 2) it is no longer closely held. Here's an excellent explanation from a former CIA lawyer:

Just because twitter guys says he’s a former CIA lawyer doesn’t mean he’s got this entirely right. There is indeed a process for classification that produces records so people know what is classified and what isn’t. Like I said before, a sitting president can divulge whatever info he wants when he’s the president—-doesn’t mean everyone else can divulge until the records are declassified. When he stopped being president he lost the right to possess or divulge classified information. It remains classified whether he waived a magic wand, shared a screenshot or whatever, if he didn’t engage in the process to actually declassify it.

I'm waiting for you to link to the EO, regulation, statute, etc. that describes this process. Happy to engage further once you provide that.

Knock yourself out
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/WCPD-2003-03-31/pdf/WCPD-2003-03-31-Pg359.pdf

The PP doesn’t want to read that, he just wants to muddy the waters some more. Just because the rules didn’t apply to trump when he was president doesn’t mean that they don’t apply to him now. The documents were marked, he was warned, he was given an opportunity to return them, he refused. And he has refused to present any evidence that he had a right to have them after he left office, or that they were ever declassified before he did whatever else he did with them after he left office.

I have read it. It was revoked by Obama in 2009 so it is completely irrelevant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Trump is the embodiment of narcissism. He has bragged time after time that he has the power to declassify sua sponte. So why should we naively think that he has not exercised this power — at least in his own mind — through the mere the act of removing them to MAL, as he has said repeatedly? Kash Patel likewise has said as much. Trump keeps repeating this because like any narcissist he can’t help himself and doesn’t believe he did anything wrong by sharing the informatuon once the materials were “declassified.” Just as with his sharing a photo of the Iranian launch site. It’s the ultimate tell. There’s no need to “declassify” something unless you plan to use it for some purpose.

Trump is nothing if not transactional. He only does something if it benefits him in some way? Well, it’s not too hard to envision a number of ways the magicsl power to declassify could be used for his benefit. He didn’t want to relinquish control over these materials even after DOJ came to get them pursuant to a grand jury subpoena and allowed one or more of his lawyers to provide a false certification in violation of 18 USC s. 1001.

He's shown no evidence to the special master (or anyone else) of having done so

Even if they were declassified, he still doesn't get to keep them

Why then keep dancing around the issue? There has to be a cogent strategy motivating repeated reference in his filings to something that on its face seems absurd and is flatly contradicted by the Obama Exrcutive Order. Why undercut your credibility with Dearie and the 11th Circuit only to be called out for it. Are they just placating a mercurial client? Seems foolish if so.

Declassification would be a defense if he is charged with divulging state secrets. The are what’s going on. They are going to preserve the defense as long as they can, and muddy the media space with BS theories about his power to declassify.

And yet he peremptorily boxed himself in by asking Cannon to direct a special master to make determinations as to declassification in the context of relief under Rule 41(g).

Well it was worth a shot. It doesn’t stop him from making the argument at trial.

You need actual admissible evidence to back up the argument. Dearie all but laughed at him, as did the appellate panel. Love to see the jury instructions in that issue.

Of course—I’m sure he can get one or two people to attest he waived his magic wand and declassified everything that he ever saw. Right? *crickets*

But then what? The Espionage Act doesn't require that the information is classified, it just requires the information be damaging.

That's sort of true (it also has to be "closely held" and related to the military or national defense), but the classification issue is closely tied into this because declassification typically means 1) the president or authorized official has determined it is not damaging and 2) it is no longer closely held. Here's an excellent explanation from a former CIA lawyer:

Just because twitter guys says he’s a former CIA lawyer doesn’t mean he’s got this entirely right. There is indeed a process for classification that produces records so people know what is classified and what isn’t. Like I said before, a sitting president can divulge whatever info he wants when he’s the president—-doesn’t mean everyone else can divulge until the records are declassified. When he stopped being president he lost the right to possess or divulge classified information. It remains classified whether he waived a magic wand, shared a screenshot or whatever, if he didn’t engage in the process to actually declassify it.

I'm waiting for you to link to the EO, regulation, statute, etc. that describes this process. Happy to engage further once you provide that.

Knock yourself out
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/WCPD-2003-03-31/pdf/WCPD-2003-03-31-Pg359.pdf

The fact that you linked to an EO that was expressly revoked in 2009 tells me all I need to know about your expertise in this area.

That wasn’t me. Here’s the current EO https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/executive-order-classified-national-security-information

You’re still missing the point I see.

[Anonymous]

Is he going to defend himself by using some weird back to the future defense… like “as president to gifted these to my future self”.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Trump is the embodiment of narcissism. He has bragged time after time that he has the power to declassify sua sponte. So why should we naively think that he has not exercised this power — at least in his own mind — through the mere the act of removing them to MAL, as he has said repeatedly? Kash Patel likewise has said as much. Trump keeps repeating this because like any narcissist he can’t help himself and doesn’t believe he did anything wrong by sharing the informatuon once the materials were “declassified.” Just as with his sharing a photo of the Iranian launch site. It’s the ultimate tell. There’s no need to “declassify” something unless you plan to use it for some purpose.

Trump is nothing if not transactional. He only does something if it benefits him in some way? Well, it’s not too hard to envision a number of ways the magicsl power to declassify could be used for his benefit. He didn’t want to relinquish control over these materials even after DOJ came to get them pursuant to a grand jury subpoena and allowed one or more of his lawyers to provide a false certification in violation of 18 USC s. 1001.

He's shown no evidence to the special master (or anyone else) of having done so

Even if they were declassified, he still doesn't get to keep them

Why then keep dancing around the issue? There has to be a cogent strategy motivating repeated reference in his filings to something that on its face seems absurd and is flatly contradicted by the Obama Exrcutive Order. Why undercut your credibility with Dearie and the 11th Circuit only to be called out for it. Are they just placating a mercurial client? Seems foolish if so.

Declassification would be a defense if he is charged with divulging state secrets. The are what’s going on. They are going to preserve the defense as long as they can, and muddy the media space with BS theories about his power to declassify.

And yet he peremptorily boxed himself in by asking Cannon to direct a special master to make determinations as to declassification in the context of relief under Rule 41(g).

Well it was worth a shot. It doesn’t stop him from making the argument at trial.

You need actual admissible evidence to back up the argument. Dearie all but laughed at him, as did the appellate panel. Love to see the jury instructions in that issue.

Of course—I’m sure he can get one or two people to attest he waived his magic wand and declassified everything that he ever saw. Right? *crickets*

But then what? The Espionage Act doesn't require that the information is classified, it just requires the information be damaging.

That's sort of true (it also has to be "closely held" and related to the military or national defense), but the classification issue is closely tied into this because declassification typically means 1) the president or authorized official has determined it is not damaging and 2) it is no longer closely held. Here's an excellent explanation from a former CIA lawyer:

Just because twitter guys says he’s a former CIA lawyer doesn’t mean he’s got this entirely right. There is indeed a process for classification that produces records so people know what is classified and what isn’t. Like I said before, a sitting president can divulge whatever info he wants when he’s the president—-doesn’t mean everyone else can divulge until the records are declassified. When he stopped being president he lost the right to possess or divulge classified information. It remains classified whether he waived a magic wand, shared a screenshot or whatever, if he didn’t engage in the process to actually declassify it.

I'm waiting for you to link to the EO, regulation, statute, etc. that describes this process. Happy to engage further once you provide that.

Knock yourself out
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/WCPD-2003-03-31/pdf/WCPD-2003-03-31-Pg359.pdf

The fact that you linked to an EO that was expressly revoked in 2009 tells me all I need to know about your expertise in this area.

That wasn’t me. Here’s the current EO https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/executive-order-classified-national-security-information

You’re still missing the point I see.

Now that you've properly identified the EO that is effective today, can you point to the process a president has to use in this EO? Keep in mind that the president is not agency or agency head. TIA.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Trump is the embodiment of narcissism. He has bragged time after time that he has the power to declassify sua sponte. So why should we naively think that he has not exercised this power — at least in his own mind — through the mere the act of removing them to MAL, as he has said repeatedly? Kash Patel likewise has said as much. Trump keeps repeating this because like any narcissist he can’t help himself and doesn’t believe he did anything wrong by sharing the informatuon once the materials were “declassified.” Just as with his sharing a photo of the Iranian launch site. It’s the ultimate tell. There’s no need to “declassify” something unless you plan to use it for some purpose.

Trump is nothing if not transactional. He only does something if it benefits him in some way? Well, it’s not too hard to envision a number of ways the magicsl power to declassify could be used for his benefit. He didn’t want to relinquish control over these materials even after DOJ came to get them pursuant to a grand jury subpoena and allowed one or more of his lawyers to provide a false certification in violation of 18 USC s. 1001.

He's shown no evidence to the special master (or anyone else) of having done so

Even if they were declassified, he still doesn't get to keep them

Why then keep dancing around the issue? There has to be a cogent strategy motivating repeated reference in his filings to something that on its face seems absurd and is flatly contradicted by the Obama Exrcutive Order. Why undercut your credibility with Dearie and the 11th Circuit only to be called out for it. Are they just placating a mercurial client? Seems foolish if so.

Declassification would be a defense if he is charged with divulging state secrets. The are what’s going on. They are going to preserve the defense as long as they can, and muddy the media space with BS theories about his power to declassify.

And yet he peremptorily boxed himself in by asking Cannon to direct a special master to make determinations as to declassification in the context of relief under Rule 41(g).

Well it was worth a shot. It doesn’t stop him from making the argument at trial.

You need actual admissible evidence to back up the argument. Dearie all but laughed at him, as did the appellate panel. Love to see the jury instructions in that issue.

Of course—I’m sure he can get one or two people to attest he waived his magic wand and declassified everything that he ever saw. Right? *crickets*

But then what? The Espionage Act doesn't require that the information is classified, it just requires the information be damaging.

That's sort of true (it also has to be "closely held" and related to the military or national defense), but the classification issue is closely tied into this because declassification typically means 1) the president or authorized official has determined it is not damaging and 2) it is no longer closely held. Here's an excellent explanation from a former CIA lawyer:

Just because twitter guys says he’s a former CIA lawyer doesn’t mean he’s got this entirely right. There is indeed a process for classification that produces records so people know what is classified and what isn’t. Like I said before, a sitting president can divulge whatever info he wants when he’s the president—-doesn’t mean everyone else can divulge until the records are declassified. When he stopped being president he lost the right to possess or divulge classified information. It remains classified whether he waived a magic wand, shared a screenshot or whatever, if he didn’t engage in the process to actually declassify it.

I'm waiting for you to link to the EO, regulation, statute, etc. that describes this process. Happy to engage further once you provide that.

Knock yourself out
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/WCPD-2003-03-31/pdf/WCPD-2003-03-31-Pg359.pdf

The fact that you linked to an EO that was expressly revoked in 2009 tells me all I need to know about your expertise in this area.

That wasn’t me. Here’s the current EO https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/executive-order-classified-national-security-information

You’re still missing the point I see.

Now that you've properly identified the EO that is effective today, can you point to the process a president has to use in this EO? Keep in mind that the president is not agency or agency head. TIA.

things that make you go hmmmmm (c) Classified information shall not be declassified automatically as a result of any unauthorized disclosure of identical or similar information.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Trump is the embodiment of narcissism. He has bragged time after time that he has the power to declassify sua sponte. So why should we naively think that he has not exercised this power — at least in his own mind — through the mere the act of removing them to MAL, as he has said repeatedly? Kash Patel likewise has said as much. Trump keeps repeating this because like any narcissist he can’t help himself and doesn’t believe he did anything wrong by sharing the informatuon once the materials were “declassified.” Just as with his sharing a photo of the Iranian launch site. It’s the ultimate tell. There’s no need to “declassify” something unless you plan to use it for some purpose.

Trump is nothing if not transactional. He only does something if it benefits him in some way? Well, it’s not too hard to envision a number of ways the magicsl power to declassify could be used for his benefit. He didn’t want to relinquish control over these materials even after DOJ came to get them pursuant to a grand jury subpoena and allowed one or more of his lawyers to provide a false certification in violation of 18 USC s. 1001.

He's shown no evidence to the special master (or anyone else) of having done so

Even if they were declassified, he still doesn't get to keep them

Why then keep dancing around the issue? There has to be a cogent strategy motivating repeated reference in his filings to something that on its face seems absurd and is flatly contradicted by the Obama Exrcutive Order. Why undercut your credibility with Dearie and the 11th Circuit only to be called out for it. Are they just placating a mercurial client? Seems foolish if so.

Declassification would be a defense if he is charged with divulging state secrets. The are what’s going on. They are going to preserve the defense as long as they can, and muddy the media space with BS theories about his power to declassify.

And yet he peremptorily boxed himself in by asking Cannon to direct a special master to make determinations as to declassification in the context of relief under Rule 41(g).

Well it was worth a shot. It doesn’t stop him from making the argument at trial.

You need actual admissible evidence to back up the argument. Dearie all but laughed at him, as did the appellate panel. Love to see the jury instructions in that issue.

Of course—I’m sure he can get one or two people to attest he waived his magic wand and declassified everything that he ever saw. Right? *crickets*

But then what? The Espionage Act doesn't require that the information is classified, it just requires the information be damaging.

That's sort of true (it also has to be "closely held" and related to the military or national defense), but the classification issue is closely tied into this because declassification typically means 1) the president or authorized official has determined it is not damaging and 2) it is no longer closely held. Here's an excellent explanation from a former CIA lawyer:

Just because twitter guys says he’s a former CIA lawyer doesn’t mean he’s got this entirely right. There is indeed a process for classification that produces records so people know what is classified and what isn’t. Like I said before, a sitting president can divulge whatever info he wants when he’s the president—-doesn’t mean everyone else can divulge until the records are declassified. When he stopped being president he lost the right to possess or divulge classified information. It remains classified whether he waived a magic wand, shared a screenshot or whatever, if he didn’t engage in the process to actually declassify it.

I'm waiting for you to link to the EO, regulation, statute, etc. that describes this process. Happy to engage further once you provide that.

Knock yourself out
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/WCPD-2003-03-31/pdf/WCPD-2003-03-31-Pg359.pdf

The fact that you linked to an EO that was expressly revoked in 2009 tells me all I need to know about your expertise in this area.

That wasn’t me. Here’s the current EO https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/executive-order-classified-national-security-information

You’re still missing the point I see.

Now that you've properly identified the EO that is effective today, can you point to the process a president has to use in this EO? Keep in mind that the president is not agency or agency head. TIA.

Continue beating a dead horse and ignoring the distinction I made above between declassification and the powers of the sitting president generally. I have not once argued the procedures apply to the president. He can do what he wants with any and all classified information. He can “declassify” it but if there’s no record of it, then it didn’t happen, and you’re going to find yourself in a jail cell if you take documents with those kinds of markings home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Trump is the embodiment of narcissism. He has bragged time after time that he has the power to declassify sua sponte. So why should we naively think that he has not exercised this power — at least in his own mind — through the mere the act of removing them to MAL, as he has said repeatedly? Kash Patel likewise has said as much. Trump keeps repeating this because like any narcissist he can’t help himself and doesn’t believe he did anything wrong by sharing the informatuon once the materials were “declassified.” Just as with his sharing a photo of the Iranian launch site. It’s the ultimate tell. There’s no need to “declassify” something unless you plan to use it for some purpose.

Trump is nothing if not transactional. He only does something if it benefits him in some way? Well, it’s not too hard to envision a number of ways the magicsl power to declassify could be used for his benefit. He didn’t want to relinquish control over these materials even after DOJ came to get them pursuant to a grand jury subpoena and allowed one or more of his lawyers to provide a false certification in violation of 18 USC s. 1001.

He's shown no evidence to the special master (or anyone else) of having done so

Even if they were declassified, he still doesn't get to keep them

Why then keep dancing around the issue? There has to be a cogent strategy motivating repeated reference in his filings to something that on its face seems absurd and is flatly contradicted by the Obama Exrcutive Order. Why undercut your credibility with Dearie and the 11th Circuit only to be called out for it. Are they just placating a mercurial client? Seems foolish if so.

Declassification would be a defense if he is charged with divulging state secrets. The are what’s going on. They are going to preserve the defense as long as they can, and muddy the media space with BS theories about his power to declassify.

And yet he peremptorily boxed himself in by asking Cannon to direct a special master to make determinations as to declassification in the context of relief under Rule 41(g).

Well it was worth a shot. It doesn’t stop him from making the argument at trial.

You need actual admissible evidence to back up the argument. Dearie all but laughed at him, as did the appellate panel. Love to see the jury instructions in that issue.

Of course—I’m sure he can get one or two people to attest he waived his magic wand and declassified everything that he ever saw. Right? *crickets*

But then what? The Espionage Act doesn't require that the information is classified, it just requires the information be damaging.

That's sort of true (it also has to be "closely held" and related to the military or national defense), but the classification issue is closely tied into this because declassification typically means 1) the president or authorized official has determined it is not damaging and 2) it is no longer closely held. Here's an excellent explanation from a former CIA lawyer:

Just because twitter guys says he’s a former CIA lawyer doesn’t mean he’s got this entirely right. There is indeed a process for classification that produces records so people know what is classified and what isn’t. Like I said before, a sitting president can divulge whatever info he wants when he’s the president—-doesn’t mean everyone else can divulge until the records are declassified. When he stopped being president he lost the right to possess or divulge classified information. It remains classified whether he waived a magic wand, shared a screenshot or whatever, if he didn’t engage in the process to actually declassify it.

I'm waiting for you to link to the EO, regulation, statute, etc. that describes this process. Happy to engage further once you provide that.

Knock yourself out
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/WCPD-2003-03-31/pdf/WCPD-2003-03-31-Pg359.pdf

The fact that you linked to an EO that was expressly revoked in 2009 tells me all I need to know about your expertise in this area.

That wasn’t me. Here’s the current EO https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/executive-order-classified-national-security-information

You’re still missing the point I see.

Now that you've properly identified the EO that is effective today, can you point to the process a president has to use in this EO? Keep in mind that the president is not agency or agency head. TIA.

Continue beating a dead horse and ignoring the distinction I made above between declassification and the powers of the sitting president generally. I have not once argued the procedures apply to the president. He can do what he wants with any and all classified information. He can “declassify” it but if there’s no record of it, then it didn’t happen, and you’re going to find yourself in a jail cell if you take documents with those kinds of markings home.

Yes, the issue is whether he can prove he declassified them. Which is what I said at the outset. Thanks for coming around.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is he going to defend himself by using some weird back to the future defense… like “as president to gifted these to my future self”.

Guys, he totally is going to do this. “I used the powers of the presidency, which are vast, so vast, to protect this great country, but giving myself access to this information so that no one can ever again, keep such beautiful information secret from you great great American people, who I love so much”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Trump is the embodiment of narcissism. He has bragged time after time that he has the power to declassify sua sponte. So why should we naively think that he has not exercised this power — at least in his own mind — through the mere the act of removing them to MAL, as he has said repeatedly? Kash Patel likewise has said as much. Trump keeps repeating this because like any narcissist he can’t help himself and doesn’t believe he did anything wrong by sharing the informatuon once the materials were “declassified.” Just as with his sharing a photo of the Iranian launch site. It’s the ultimate tell. There’s no need to “declassify” something unless you plan to use it for some purpose.

Trump is nothing if not transactional. He only does something if it benefits him in some way? Well, it’s not too hard to envision a number of ways the magicsl power to declassify could be used for his benefit. He didn’t want to relinquish control over these materials even after DOJ came to get them pursuant to a grand jury subpoena and allowed one or more of his lawyers to provide a false certification in violation of 18 USC s. 1001.

He's shown no evidence to the special master (or anyone else) of having done so

Even if they were declassified, he still doesn't get to keep them

Why then keep dancing around the issue? There has to be a cogent strategy motivating repeated reference in his filings to something that on its face seems absurd and is flatly contradicted by the Obama Exrcutive Order. Why undercut your credibility with Dearie and the 11th Circuit only to be called out for it. Are they just placating a mercurial client? Seems foolish if so.

Declassification would be a defense if he is charged with divulging state secrets. The are what’s going on. They are going to preserve the defense as long as they can, and muddy the media space with BS theories about his power to declassify.

And yet he peremptorily boxed himself in by asking Cannon to direct a special master to make determinations as to declassification in the context of relief under Rule 41(g).

Well it was worth a shot. It doesn’t stop him from making the argument at trial.

You need actual admissible evidence to back up the argument. Dearie all but laughed at him, as did the appellate panel. Love to see the jury instructions in that issue.

Of course—I’m sure he can get one or two people to attest he waived his magic wand and declassified everything that he ever saw. Right? *crickets*

But then what? The Espionage Act doesn't require that the information is classified, it just requires the information be damaging.

That's sort of true (it also has to be "closely held" and related to the military or national defense), but the classification issue is closely tied into this because declassification typically means 1) the president or authorized official has determined it is not damaging and 2) it is no longer closely held. Here's an excellent explanation from a former CIA lawyer:

Just because twitter guys says he’s a former CIA lawyer doesn’t mean he’s got this entirely right. There is indeed a process for classification that produces records so people know what is classified and what isn’t. Like I said before, a sitting president can divulge whatever info he wants when he’s the president—-doesn’t mean everyone else can divulge until the records are declassified. When he stopped being president he lost the right to possess or divulge classified information. It remains classified whether he waived a magic wand, shared a screenshot or whatever, if he didn’t engage in the process to actually declassify it.

I'm waiting for you to link to the EO, regulation, statute, etc. that describes this process. Happy to engage further once you provide that.

Knock yourself out
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/WCPD-2003-03-31/pdf/WCPD-2003-03-31-Pg359.pdf

The fact that you linked to an EO that was expressly revoked in 2009 tells me all I need to know about your expertise in this area.

That wasn’t me. Here’s the current EO https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/executive-order-classified-national-security-information

You’re still missing the point I see.

Now that you've properly identified the EO that is effective today, can you point to the process a president has to use in this EO? Keep in mind that the president is not agency or agency head. TIA.

Continue beating a dead horse and ignoring the distinction I made above between declassification and the powers of the sitting president generally. I have not once argued the procedures apply to the president. He can do what he wants with any and all classified information. He can “declassify” it but if there’s no record of it, then it didn’t happen, and you’re going to find yourself in a jail cell if you take documents with those kinds of markings home.

Yes, the issue is whether he can prove he declassified them. Which is what I said at the outset. Thanks for coming around.

Any yet, whether or not he declassified the documents when he was POTUS is irrelevant now, because he is no longer POTUS (Praise the Lord) and therefore he is in possession of property that belongs to the United States.

P.S. Biden could and should reclassify all of them today. Isn't that what they did to Hillary?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Trump is the embodiment of narcissism. He has bragged time after time that he has the power to declassify sua sponte. So why should we naively think that he has not exercised this power — at least in his own mind — through the mere the act of removing them to MAL, as he has said repeatedly? Kash Patel likewise has said as much. Trump keeps repeating this because like any narcissist he can’t help himself and doesn’t believe he did anything wrong by sharing the informatuon once the materials were “declassified.” Just as with his sharing a photo of the Iranian launch site. It’s the ultimate tell. There’s no need to “declassify” something unless you plan to use it for some purpose.

Trump is nothing if not transactional. He only does something if it benefits him in some way? Well, it’s not too hard to envision a number of ways the magicsl power to declassify could be used for his benefit. He didn’t want to relinquish control over these materials even after DOJ came to get them pursuant to a grand jury subpoena and allowed one or more of his lawyers to provide a false certification in violation of 18 USC s. 1001.

He's shown no evidence to the special master (or anyone else) of having done so

Even if they were declassified, he still doesn't get to keep them

Why then keep dancing around the issue? There has to be a cogent strategy motivating repeated reference in his filings to something that on its face seems absurd and is flatly contradicted by the Obama Exrcutive Order. Why undercut your credibility with Dearie and the 11th Circuit only to be called out for it. Are they just placating a mercurial client? Seems foolish if so.

Declassification would be a defense if he is charged with divulging state secrets. The are what’s going on. They are going to preserve the defense as long as they can, and muddy the media space with BS theories about his power to declassify.

And yet he peremptorily boxed himself in by asking Cannon to direct a special master to make determinations as to declassification in the context of relief under Rule 41(g).

Well it was worth a shot. It doesn’t stop him from making the argument at trial.

You need actual admissible evidence to back up the argument. Dearie all but laughed at him, as did the appellate panel. Love to see the jury instructions in that issue.

Of course—I’m sure he can get one or two people to attest he waived his magic wand and declassified everything that he ever saw. Right? *crickets*

But then what? The Espionage Act doesn't require that the information is classified, it just requires the information be damaging.

That's sort of true (it also has to be "closely held" and related to the military or national defense), but the classification issue is closely tied into this because declassification typically means 1) the president or authorized official has determined it is not damaging and 2) it is no longer closely held. Here's an excellent explanation from a former CIA lawyer:

Just because twitter guys says he’s a former CIA lawyer doesn’t mean he’s got this entirely right. There is indeed a process for classification that produces records so people know what is classified and what isn’t. Like I said before, a sitting president can divulge whatever info he wants when he’s the president—-doesn’t mean everyone else can divulge until the records are declassified. When he stopped being president he lost the right to possess or divulge classified information. It remains classified whether he waived a magic wand, shared a screenshot or whatever, if he didn’t engage in the process to actually declassify it.

I'm waiting for you to link to the EO, regulation, statute, etc. that describes this process. Happy to engage further once you provide that.

Knock yourself out
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/WCPD-2003-03-31/pdf/WCPD-2003-03-31-Pg359.pdf

The fact that you linked to an EO that was expressly revoked in 2009 tells me all I need to know about your expertise in this area.

That wasn’t me. Here’s the current EO https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/executive-order-classified-national-security-information

You’re still missing the point I see.

Now that you've properly identified the EO that is effective today, can you point to the process a president has to use in this EO? Keep in mind that the president is not agency or agency head. TIA.

Continue beating a dead horse and ignoring the distinction I made above between declassification and the powers of the sitting president generally. I have not once argued the procedures apply to the president. He can do what he wants with any and all classified information. He can “declassify” it but if there’s no record of it, then it didn’t happen, and you’re going to find yourself in a jail cell if you take documents with those kinds of markings home.

Yes, the issue is whether he can prove he declassified them. Which is what I said at the outset. Thanks for coming around.

If a document is declassified in my mind, and no one knows except for maybe like one guy who saw me say I wanted everything I ever read declassified, is it declassified? No. The answer is no.

Again: you need to come around to the distinction I am making between classification (which is a PROCESS for managing sensitive state secrets) and the power of the president to access and divulge secrets. Two different things.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Trump is the embodiment of narcissism. He has bragged time after time that he has the power to declassify sua sponte. So why should we naively think that he has not exercised this power — at least in his own mind — through the mere the act of removing them to MAL, as he has said repeatedly? Kash Patel likewise has said as much. Trump keeps repeating this because like any narcissist he can’t help himself and doesn’t believe he did anything wrong by sharing the informatuon once the materials were “declassified.” Just as with his sharing a photo of the Iranian launch site. It’s the ultimate tell. There’s no need to “declassify” something unless you plan to use it for some purpose.

Trump is nothing if not transactional. He only does something if it benefits him in some way? Well, it’s not too hard to envision a number of ways the magicsl power to declassify could be used for his benefit. He didn’t want to relinquish control over these materials even after DOJ came to get them pursuant to a grand jury subpoena and allowed one or more of his lawyers to provide a false certification in violation of 18 USC s. 1001.

He's shown no evidence to the special master (or anyone else) of having done so

Even if they were declassified, he still doesn't get to keep them

Why then keep dancing around the issue? There has to be a cogent strategy motivating repeated reference in his filings to something that on its face seems absurd and is flatly contradicted by the Obama Exrcutive Order. Why undercut your credibility with Dearie and the 11th Circuit only to be called out for it. Are they just placating a mercurial client? Seems foolish if so.

Declassification would be a defense if he is charged with divulging state secrets. The are what’s going on. They are going to preserve the defense as long as they can, and muddy the media space with BS theories about his power to declassify.

And yet he peremptorily boxed himself in by asking Cannon to direct a special master to make determinations as to declassification in the context of relief under Rule 41(g).

Well it was worth a shot. It doesn’t stop him from making the argument at trial.

You need actual admissible evidence to back up the argument. Dearie all but laughed at him, as did the appellate panel. Love to see the jury instructions in that issue.

Of course—I’m sure he can get one or two people to attest he waived his magic wand and declassified everything that he ever saw. Right? *crickets*

But then what? The Espionage Act doesn't require that the information is classified, it just requires the information be damaging.

That's sort of true (it also has to be "closely held" and related to the military or national defense), but the classification issue is closely tied into this because declassification typically means 1) the president or authorized official has determined it is not damaging and 2) it is no longer closely held. Here's an excellent explanation from a former CIA lawyer:

Just because twitter guys says he’s a former CIA lawyer doesn’t mean he’s got this entirely right. There is indeed a process for classification that produces records so people know what is classified and what isn’t. Like I said before, a sitting president can divulge whatever info he wants when he’s the president—-doesn’t mean everyone else can divulge until the records are declassified. When he stopped being president he lost the right to possess or divulge classified information. It remains classified whether he waived a magic wand, shared a screenshot or whatever, if he didn’t engage in the process to actually declassify it.

I'm waiting for you to link to the EO, regulation, statute, etc. that describes this process. Happy to engage further once you provide that.

Knock yourself out
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/WCPD-2003-03-31/pdf/WCPD-2003-03-31-Pg359.pdf

The fact that you linked to an EO that was expressly revoked in 2009 tells me all I need to know about your expertise in this area.

That wasn’t me. Here’s the current EO https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/executive-order-classified-national-security-information

You’re still missing the point I see.

Now that you've properly identified the EO that is effective today, can you point to the process a president has to use in this EO? Keep in mind that the president is not agency or agency head. TIA.

Continue beating a dead horse and ignoring the distinction I made above between declassification and the powers of the sitting president generally. I have not once argued the procedures apply to the president. He can do what he wants with any and all classified information. He can “declassify” it but if there’s no record of it, then it didn’t happen, and you’re going to find yourself in a jail cell if you take documents with those kinds of markings home.

Yes, the issue is whether he can prove he declassified them. Which is what I said at the outset. Thanks for coming around.

If a document is declassified in my mind, and no one knows except for maybe like one guy who saw me say I wanted everything I ever read declassified, is it declassified? No. The answer is no.

Again: you need to come around to the distinction I am making between classification (which is a PROCESS for managing sensitive state secrets) and the power of the president to access and divulge secrets. Two different things.

Probably said somewhere in this thread but it feels like the Schrodinger's Cat defense.