Thursday Nov 20 BOE Discussion on Boundaries and Regional Program Model

[Anonymous]

Another day another thread made useless by the MVC lady

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Some of you seem to think kids get into college and live happily ever after. As though it doesn't matter how prepared you are or how many credits you have to pay for. Jfc

It doesn't, really. Most of the credits won't translate at the caliber of school you're talking about anyway.

And I don't think making sure your kid knows the stuff they have to repeat in college makes them successful. My college was prestigious enough not to accept my AP Bio score... So I took Bio in college and spent most of it reading unrelated trashy books, and being really bored. I got an A. I would have been more engaged had I learned something.

[Anonymous]

I’m just not really clear what the Einstein families want to happen. They say they want a strong academic regional program located at Einstein. If they got IB or Humanities, it wouldn’t get them AP Physics or engineering. There isn’t even a criteria based engineering program on the table in region 1 for any school. The only one that would would be possible would be the SMCS program at Blair. Why would they relocate that to Einstein, which is also trying to reduce overcrowding, when they already have program and teaching staff and grandfathered students finishing out the countywide version? And for which Einstein kids could apply/attend? That is inefficient and unnecessary. The programs aren’t the solution for your issue. Your own school is the solution for getting the classes you need. The programs are an additional set of options which come with a cost (commute, etc.) for everyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m just not really clear what the Einstein families want to happen. They say they want a strong academic regional program located at Einstein. If they got IB or Humanities, it wouldn’t get them AP Physics or engineering. There isn’t even a criteria based engineering program on the table in region 1 for any school. The only one that would would be possible would be the SMCS program at Blair. Why would they relocate that to Einstein, which is also trying to reduce overcrowding, when they already have program and teaching staff and grandfathered students finishing out the countywide version? And for which Einstein kids could apply/attend? That is inefficient and unnecessary. The programs aren’t the solution for your issue. Your own school is the solution for getting the classes you need. The programs are an additional set of options which come with a cost (commute, etc.) for everyone.

To be clear, what I’m saying is you are conflating different things. Your inability to get AP physics or MVC offered at your school isn’t a result of the existence or placement of programs, it is a lack of offerings at your school. If your school has reasons to continue not to offer those classes, you now have choices like the former DCC where you could go elsewhere to get what you want/need. Those choices may or may not be attractive or ultra convenient for you, but usually magnet programs involve some element of sacrifice by the family to make the arrangement work. This is the public school system and there are many needs that end up being in opposition of other needs. That is just the reality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Another day another thread made useless by the MVC lady

What is wrong with you? All you do is troll here and bully. You have nothing if substance to say.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m just not really clear what the Einstein families want to happen. They say they want a strong academic regional program located at Einstein. If they got IB or Humanities, it wouldn’t get them AP Physics or engineering. There isn’t even a criteria based engineering program on the table in region 1 for any school. The only one that would would be possible would be the SMCS program at Blair. Why would they relocate that to Einstein, which is also trying to reduce overcrowding, when they already have program and teaching staff and grandfathered students finishing out the countywide version? And for which Einstein kids could apply/attend? That is inefficient and unnecessary. The programs aren’t the solution for your issue. Your own school is the solution for getting the classes you need. The programs are an additional set of options which come with a cost (commute, etc.) for everyone.

I don’t see the point of Einstein having an IB program as few care or graduate with a degree. The lack of offerings are the concern. Other schools have a huge variety and Einstein doesn’t even have the basics. SMCS is not appealing to all and has limited spots. Commute is a huge barrier for many, including us. With a reduction of students, means a reduction of staff which means even less options, which will make things worse not better. These schools will not be getting these classes as it takes resources and funding they don’t have.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of you seem to think kids get into college and live happily ever after. As though it doesn't matter how prepared you are or how many credits you have to pay for. Jfc

It doesn't, really. Most of the credits won't translate at the caliber of school you're talking about anyway.

And I don't think making sure your kid knows the stuff they have to repeat in college makes them successful. My college was prestigious enough not to accept my AP Bio score... So I took Bio in college and spent most of it reading unrelated trashy books, and being really bored. I got an A. I would have been more engaged had I learned something.

In order to get into a good school with an application degree you need to take the classes to be competitive. Yes, you repeat classes in college, just like you do in grad school. That’s normal.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Btw an equity mindset would mean placing programs in schools that have gaps. Like if there are zero advanced science classes at a school, put a science program there.

They are doing the opposite. They are putting programs at schools that already have the classes. Then they proposing having certain kids from other schools get driven by their parents to their home school to take a bus to this school that already has these classes to take them.

Highlighted sentence is exactly the reason why SMCS was originally established at Blair. Wootton and Churchill kids sacrifice long bus ride for an excellent education, and kids living in DCC area also benefits from (Blair kids can freely take any magnet class as long as prerequisite is met and counselor approves). CO can move this program to Kennedy or Gaithersburg. It’ll still be excellent and filled with majority of W kids. They can add one more closer to Ws so to allow more access. Dismantling it completely and make 6…… that’s as crazy as it sounds like.

No.
Keep repeating that same lie, doesn't make it true.
The magnet was placed there to stem white flight.

DP I don't personally know the history of Blair's SMCS. That being said, if what you are saying is true, isn't putting criteria based academic programs at Whitman and BCC that are only reasonably accessible to families with their own transportation a way to promote White flight?

Whitman and BCC are not the only places that will have criteria based academic programs. STEM won't be at either places, for example.

On Thursday they proposed an interest based engineering program at BCC. It will not attract kids struggling in math. 75% of Black students and 86% of Latino students in MCPS are not proficient in high school math.

Central office is pulling programs out of the air; doesn't seem there is much rhyme or reason to many of them.

BCC already has an engineering program. They will attract students from other schools with it which will increase the staff allocation for BCC. Can't say the same for the Einstein biomedical program that doesn't exist and won't get any resources.

Both Whitman and BCC have engineering. That means Whitman students continue to have the same access they always had.

Northwood, Einstein, and Blair do not have engineering programs. DCC students who want engineering go to Wheaton, which is closer than BCC will be. Moreover, the DCC model allowed a few hundred non-Wheaton students per year to access the engineering program.

The new model will accept maybe 30 non-BCC students in the first few years. It seems like there won’t be limits on BCC students who want to sign up for engineering classes.

So basically, BCC and Whitman students will have unrestricted access to engineering, while 30 students from Blair, Einstein and Northwood will get into the program.

There’s no equity in this proposal and MCPS should stop pretending otherwise.

The Blair magnet has multiple engineering courses in that program, to which Blair Northwood and Einstein kids can access seats. So now you have three schools that were not available to you before but which are now available with engineering. We cannot locate all programs at Einstein, sorry.

First of all it's incredibly disingenuous to say Einstein kids "can access" seats at other schools. First they have to get into the program by lottery or by criteria and they also have to figure out the commute which not all schools can do.

Whitman and BCC have all the programs already. They have engineering, they have advanced math, they have advanced humanities. Every single student at these schools can access those programs, not just ones that win the lottery. To suggest Einstein families are asking for too much when Whitman and BCC already have everything is disgusting and offensive.

How about just having one AP physics class at
Einstein. Not asking for the three different AP physics classes that BCC and Whitman have that give their students an edge for admission to engineering programs. Just one. Am I being greedy?

The Einstein families posting on this Board looking for higher-level APs would do well to advocate for retiring in the local IB program there, which would clear the way to have more AP classes in lieu of IB classes.

Plenty of schools have IB programs and AP classes. Richard Montgomery and BCC do just fine.

They do, but Einstein is telling families there are not enough students to fill the AP courses. Also the demographics of those 3 schools are very different.

How can they possibly know this if they don't offer the courses in the first place?

And yes, Einstein serves a higher needs population than BCC or Whitman. It has larger percentages of students with IEPs, EMLs and students that receive FARMS. Yet it receives no extra funding to meet the needs of the FARMS students, even though MCPS gets extra funding from the state for every FARMS student. Of course, they are stretched thin.

If you want to constantly shriek that you are advancing equity, then actually try to advance equity. Don't make zero effort and then talk down to and shut down families and staff that complain.

Einstein did offer both AP and IB science courses for years. But there weren't enough students to justify keeping both sets of courses, so they kept IB science because they are required to as an IB school.

There are, some of the admin don’t support ap classes and are very vocal about it.

Not true, Einstein still offers AP classes in nearly every other department except for Science.

Why don’t they offer AP classes in science subjects? That is something to write to the superintendent about

As explained above, they offer IB classes in Science in lieu of AP. MCPS considers these comparable (yes, I know DCUM does not).

Many colleges don't consider them comparable either but sure, it's just crazy DCUM

Many colleges do consider them comparable too.

Oh cool, kids don't care where they go to college at all. Especially those at risk underprivileged kids, they should just be grateful for what they get.

Wait are we concerned that top colleges are turning down their noses at IB classes for admissions decisions? That seems difficult to believe.

+1
They want kids to take the most challenging classes available in a school. If a school only has IB science classes, those are the ones they will look to. They will not penalize kids for not taking AP classes when they are not offered.

Of course they will be. If they have two candidates, both equal but one has upper classes and the other doesn't, they will pick the one whose taken the classes and proven successful. It also helps to get that foundation in high school to be prepared for these classes in college. Why are you so against kids having these opportunities? If you are so against it, MCPS should remove it at all schools, especially the ones your kids go to.

There’s always going to be niche areas of specialization, but IB is an international standard. The alleged AP preference for admission goes contrary to any indication I can find on any Ivy League website.

I’m not against kids having opportunities I’m just skeptical that IB is such trash. I’d love for my kids to do IB. They are a bit younger and I don’t know which APs are offered at our local school.

If you have something concrete, please share.

Look into it yourself. The math is in no way equal and lower than calc bc. It touches on a lot of stuff but is not a clear math track for stem kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m just not really clear what the Einstein families want to happen. They say they want a strong academic regional program located at Einstein. If they got IB or Humanities, it wouldn’t get them AP Physics or engineering. There isn’t even a criteria based engineering program on the table in region 1 for any school. The only one that would would be possible would be the SMCS program at Blair. Why would they relocate that to Einstein, which is also trying to reduce overcrowding, when they already have program and teaching staff and grandfathered students finishing out the countywide version? And for which Einstein kids could apply/attend? That is inefficient and unnecessary. The programs aren’t the solution for your issue. Your own school is the solution for getting the classes you need. The programs are an additional set of options which come with a cost (commute, etc.) for everyone.

Here are some changes that I think could make things more equitable and fair in Region 1:
- Einstein discontinues its IB program, and adds in missing AP classes.
- Northwood adds missing AP classes (they're missing some, but unlike Einstein don't even have the IB alternative)
- Humanities program moved to Northwood
- Maybe move theater and/or engineering interest program to Einstein
- Discontinue the home school set-aside practice, so that students have an equal shot of admission to criteria programs regardless of the school they're zoned for.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Btw an equity mindset would mean placing programs in schools that have gaps. Like if there are zero advanced science classes at a school, put a science program there.

They are doing the opposite. They are putting programs at schools that already have the classes. Then they proposing having certain kids from other schools get driven by their parents to their home school to take a bus to this school that already has these classes to take them.

Highlighted sentence is exactly the reason why SMCS was originally established at Blair. Wootton and Churchill kids sacrifice long bus ride for an excellent education, and kids living in DCC area also benefits from (Blair kids can freely take any magnet class as long as prerequisite is met and counselor approves). CO can move this program to Kennedy or Gaithersburg. It’ll still be excellent and filled with majority of W kids. They can add one more closer to Ws so to allow more access. Dismantling it completely and make 6…… that’s as crazy as it sounds like.

No.
Keep repeating that same lie, doesn't make it true.
The magnet was placed there to stem white flight.

DP I don't personally know the history of Blair's SMCS. That being said, if what you are saying is true, isn't putting criteria based academic programs at Whitman and BCC that are only reasonably accessible to families with their own transportation a way to promote White flight?

Whitman and BCC are not the only places that will have criteria based academic programs. STEM won't be at either places, for example.

On Thursday they proposed an interest based engineering program at BCC. It will not attract kids struggling in math. 75% of Black students and 86% of Latino students in MCPS are not proficient in high school math.

Central office is pulling programs out of the air; doesn't seem there is much rhyme or reason to many of them.

BCC already has an engineering program. They will attract students from other schools with it which will increase the staff allocation for BCC. Can't say the same for the Einstein biomedical program that doesn't exist and won't get any resources.

Both Whitman and BCC have engineering. That means Whitman students continue to have the same access they always had.

Northwood, Einstein, and Blair do not have engineering programs. DCC students who want engineering go to Wheaton, which is closer than BCC will be. Moreover, the DCC model allowed a few hundred non-Wheaton students per year to access the engineering program.

The new model will accept maybe 30 non-BCC students in the first few years. It seems like there won’t be limits on BCC students who want to sign up for engineering classes.

So basically, BCC and Whitman students will have unrestricted access to engineering, while 30 students from Blair, Einstein and Northwood will get into the program.

There’s no equity in this proposal and MCPS should stop pretending otherwise.

The Blair magnet has multiple engineering courses in that program, to which Blair Northwood and Einstein kids can access seats. So now you have three schools that were not available to you before but which are now available with engineering. We cannot locate all programs at Einstein, sorry.

First of all it's incredibly disingenuous to say Einstein kids "can access" seats at other schools. First they have to get into the program by lottery or by criteria and they also have to figure out the commute which not all schools can do.

Whitman and BCC have all the programs already. They have engineering, they have advanced math, they have advanced humanities. Every single student at these schools can access those programs, not just ones that win the lottery. To suggest Einstein families are asking for too much when Whitman and BCC already have everything is disgusting and offensive.

How about just having one AP physics class at
Einstein. Not asking for the three different AP physics classes that BCC and Whitman have that give their students an edge for admission to engineering programs. Just one. Am I being greedy?

The Einstein families posting on this Board looking for higher-level APs would do well to advocate for retiring in the local IB program there, which would clear the way to have more AP classes in lieu of IB classes.

Plenty of schools have IB programs and AP classes. Richard Montgomery and BCC do just fine.

They do, but Einstein is telling families there are not enough students to fill the AP courses. Also the demographics of those 3 schools are very different.

How can they possibly know this if they don't offer the courses in the first place?

And yes, Einstein serves a higher needs population than BCC or Whitman. It has larger percentages of students with IEPs, EMLs and students that receive FARMS. Yet it receives no extra funding to meet the needs of the FARMS students, even though MCPS gets extra funding from the state for every FARMS student. Of course, they are stretched thin.

If you want to constantly shriek that you are advancing equity, then actually try to advance equity. Don't make zero effort and then talk down to and shut down families and staff that complain.

Einstein did offer both AP and IB science courses for years. But there weren't enough students to justify keeping both sets of courses, so they kept IB science because they are required to as an IB school.

There are, some of the admin don’t support ap classes and are very vocal about it.

Not true, Einstein still offers AP classes in nearly every other department except for Science.

Why don’t they offer AP classes in science subjects? That is something to write to the superintendent about

As explained above, they offer IB classes in Science in lieu of AP. MCPS considers these comparable (yes, I know DCUM does not).

Many colleges don't consider them comparable either but sure, it's just crazy DCUM

Many colleges do consider them comparable too.

Oh cool, kids don't care where they go to college at all. Especially those at risk underprivileged kids, they should just be grateful for what they get.

Wait are we concerned that top colleges are turning down their noses at IB classes for admissions decisions? That seems difficult to believe.

+1
They want kids to take the most challenging classes available in a school. If a school only has IB science classes, those are the ones they will look to. They will not penalize kids for not taking AP classes when they are not offered.

Of course they will be. If they have two candidates, both equal but one has upper classes and the other doesn't, they will pick the one whose taken the classes and proven successful. It also helps to get that foundation in high school to be prepared for these classes in college. Why are you so against kids having these opportunities? If you are so against it, MCPS should remove it at all schools, especially the ones your kids go to.

There’s always going to be niche areas of specialization, but IB is an international standard. The alleged AP preference for admission goes contrary to any indication I can find on any Ivy League website.

I’m not against kids having opportunities I’m just skeptical that IB is such trash. I’d love for my kids to do IB. They are a bit younger and I don’t know which APs are offered at our local school.

If you have something concrete, please share.

Look into it yourself. The math is in no way equal and lower than calc bc. It touches on a lot of stuff but is not a clear math track for stem kids.

Is there evidence that IB students are suffering in admissions? That is my question, and one I cannot find evidence to support.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m just not really clear what the Einstein families want to happen. They say they want a strong academic regional program located at Einstein. If they got IB or Humanities, it wouldn’t get them AP Physics or engineering. There isn’t even a criteria based engineering program on the table in region 1 for any school. The only one that would would be possible would be the SMCS program at Blair. Why would they relocate that to Einstein, which is also trying to reduce overcrowding, when they already have program and teaching staff and grandfathered students finishing out the countywide version? And for which Einstein kids could apply/attend? That is inefficient and unnecessary. The programs aren’t the solution for your issue. Your own school is the solution for getting the classes you need. The programs are an additional set of options which come with a cost (commute, etc.) for everyone.

I don’t see the point of Einstein having an IB program as few care or graduate with a degree. The lack of offerings are the concern. Other schools have a huge variety and Einstein doesn’t even have the basics. SMCS is not appealing to all and has limited spots. Commute is a huge barrier for many, including us. With a reduction of students, means a reduction of staff which means even less options, which will make things worse not better. These schools will not be getting these classes as it takes resources and funding they don’t have.

DP. If Einstein families as a whole (as opposed to those posting on DCUM) want high-level APs over IB, then they should lobby Einstein to end the IB program. Without IB, they will get the APs they desire. It was clear from the last Board meeting that the regional plan is going to sail through without changes, so the focus should be on improving offerings within Einstein itself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m just not really clear what the Einstein families want to happen. They say they want a strong academic regional program located at Einstein. If they got IB or Humanities, it wouldn’t get them AP Physics or engineering. There isn’t even a criteria based engineering program on the table in region 1 for any school. The only one that would would be possible would be the SMCS program at Blair. Why would they relocate that to Einstein, which is also trying to reduce overcrowding, when they already have program and teaching staff and grandfathered students finishing out the countywide version? And for which Einstein kids could apply/attend? That is inefficient and unnecessary. The programs aren’t the solution for your issue. Your own school is the solution for getting the classes you need. The programs are an additional set of options which come with a cost (commute, etc.) for everyone.

I think it is pretty clear what Einstein families want which is the same opportunities families in other schools have. You seem to think that is unreasonable because you believe poor kids are dumb and don't need the opportunities you want for your kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m just not really clear what the Einstein families want to happen. They say they want a strong academic regional program located at Einstein. If they got IB or Humanities, it wouldn’t get them AP Physics or engineering. There isn’t even a criteria based engineering program on the table in region 1 for any school. The only one that would would be possible would be the SMCS program at Blair. Why would they relocate that to Einstein, which is also trying to reduce overcrowding, when they already have program and teaching staff and grandfathered students finishing out the countywide version? And for which Einstein kids could apply/attend? That is inefficient and unnecessary. The programs aren’t the solution for your issue. Your own school is the solution for getting the classes you need. The programs are an additional set of options which come with a cost (commute, etc.) for everyone.

Here are some changes that I think could make things more equitable and fair in Region 1:
- Einstein discontinues its IB program, and adds in missing AP classes.
- Northwood adds missing AP classes (they're missing some, but unlike Einstein don't even have the IB alternative)
- Humanities program moved to Northwood
- Maybe move theater and/or engineering interest program to Einstein
- Discontinue the home school set-aside practice, so that students have an equal shot of admission to criteria programs regardless of the school they're zoned for.

I think the Einstein community is mixed about the IB program, at least from the people I’ve talked to. So I don’t know. I would love for Northwood to get Humanities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m just not really clear what the Einstein families want to happen. They say they want a strong academic regional program located at Einstein. If they got IB or Humanities, it wouldn’t get them AP Physics or engineering. There isn’t even a criteria based engineering program on the table in region 1 for any school. The only one that would would be possible would be the SMCS program at Blair. Why would they relocate that to Einstein, which is also trying to reduce overcrowding, when they already have program and teaching staff and grandfathered students finishing out the countywide version? And for which Einstein kids could apply/attend? That is inefficient and unnecessary. The programs aren’t the solution for your issue. Your own school is the solution for getting the classes you need. The programs are an additional set of options which come with a cost (commute, etc.) for everyone.

I don’t see the point of Einstein having an IB program as few care or graduate with a degree. The lack of offerings are the concern. Other schools have a huge variety and Einstein doesn’t even have the basics. SMCS is not appealing to all and has limited spots. Commute is a huge barrier for many, including us. With a reduction of students, means a reduction of staff which means even less options, which will make things worse not better. These schools will not be getting these classes as it takes resources and funding they don’t have.

DP. If Einstein families as a whole (as opposed to those posting on DCUM) want high-level APs over IB, then they should lobby Einstein to end the IB program. Without IB, they will get the APs they desire. It was clear from the last Board meeting that the regional plan is going to sail through without changes, so the focus should be on improving offerings within Einstein itself.

Why do you have the expectation that Einstein families should all speak as one? It's up to the principal to manage competing interests given the limited resources Einstein has to serve a high needs population. No amount of talking points or advocacy is going to change the math for Einstein.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m just not really clear what the Einstein families want to happen. They say they want a strong academic regional program located at Einstein. If they got IB or Humanities, it wouldn’t get them AP Physics or engineering. There isn’t even a criteria based engineering program on the table in region 1 for any school. The only one that would would be possible would be the SMCS program at Blair. Why would they relocate that to Einstein, which is also trying to reduce overcrowding, when they already have program and teaching staff and grandfathered students finishing out the countywide version? And for which Einstein kids could apply/attend? That is inefficient and unnecessary. The programs aren’t the solution for your issue. Your own school is the solution for getting the classes you need. The programs are an additional set of options which come with a cost (commute, etc.) for everyone.

I don’t see the point of Einstein having an IB program as few care or graduate with a degree. The lack of offerings are the concern. Other schools have a huge variety and Einstein doesn’t even have the basics. SMCS is not appealing to all and has limited spots. Commute is a huge barrier for many, including us. With a reduction of students, means a reduction of staff which means even less options, which will make things worse not better. These schools will not be getting these classes as it takes resources and funding they don’t have.

DP. If Einstein families as a whole (as opposed to those posting on DCUM) want high-level APs over IB, then they should lobby Einstein to end the IB program. Without IB, they will get the APs they desire. It was clear from the last Board meeting that the regional plan is going to sail through without changes, so the focus should be on improving offerings within Einstein itself.

Why do you have the expectation that Einstein families should all speak as one? It's up to the principal to manage competing interests given the limited resources Einstein has to serve a high needs population. No amount of talking points or advocacy is going to change the math for Einstein.

DP, we get it. Einstein will always be the victim and cannot advocate for itself.