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[Post New]10/02/2024 13:05
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Anonymous wrote:Another year with ND in the top 20. Another year the haters will say it won't last. Always get a chuckle out of this.




Notre Dame is 3.59% black. Shameful


A Catholic school in Indiana isn’t a huge draw for POC? Shocking!!




ahem. Using the same argument, there should be only 18% Catholics at ND because Indiana is only 18% Catholic.

No, when doing this analysis the experts compare to the national percentage of blacks, which is 14%. Hence, Harvard's black population is 14%. So it is at the other top schools. How do they achieve this? By offering generous merit and financial aid packages. Clearly, ND isn't vested in increasing diversity for the sake of its own student body by trying to increase the number if black students, Catholic or not.


4% of US Catholics are black. This lines up with the percent of blacks at Notre Dame. Notre Dame is a religious school and has different institutional priorities than secular universities.


Agree. ND is well known for its religious priorities and the students it attracts. Why anyone would expect different percentages of ND is ludicrous. Move on folks.


+100

I am the one who posted that haters complain each year saying ND doesn't belong in T20. The fact of the matter is that ND will continue to focus it's priorities on its Catholic identity. This means there will be less appeal to the general non-Catholic public and limits its ability to attract people of more diversity. Despite ND's dedication to its strong Catholic identity, it manages to say on top of the rankings, likely because it makes up for this limitation with other very strong characteristics, like it's great academics, beautiful campus, strong athletics, and welcoming community. People here saying that other Catholic institutions manage to have more diversity, keep in mind that those schools are not as blatant about its religious affiliation. Specifically, ND has chapels in all of it's residence halls, a very active basilica on campus, Touchdown Jesus, the grotto, and many of the main student events have an element of religion sprinkled in. This might make some students uncomfortable -- hence the attraction is just not there. Still, it remains a T20 and that is what irks most people here on DCUM.


No, we just find the diversity numbers to be disturbing. ND could do something about that if it chose to. It chooses not to divert funds to recruiting black students.


Or if it wants to focus on Catholic students why doesn't it have more Latino students. It is weird to me that a school that emphasizes it's Catholic identity so much would have so few Latino students. Like ignore diversity for a second -- ND doesn't do a good job of merely representing the *Catholic* community. It's weird.


Catholic Latina mom here. My high stats (fcps grad) kid did not even apply to ND. Our main reason was tuition. We probably would not have qualified for much aid either.

Second reason, although my kids went to k-8 parrochial school, many Latin American Catholics are not super conservative in the religious sense. Most are culturally Catholic, so ND being very focused on their religious identity, was not a draw for my DD.

Third reason: Distance. Most college students in Latin America live at home and commute. Living on campus is not the norm still for US Hispanics. So when comparing percentages of Hispanic students in the US to those enrolled in universities, our numbers will always be lower at “isolated” campuses. In all fairness, my DD lives on campus at an in-state school.

Fourth: North Bend is freaking cold for “my people”. I mean, the word “North” is in the name of the town! Many kids are trying to attend schools in warmer regions anyway.


Thanks for the insight. Seems spot on. But it’s “South Bend.” Not that it makes it any warmer.


Oops! Thanks for the correction.

Also forgot to add…current low Hispanic numbers at ND will continue to make the school less attractive to future applicants. That good old self fulfilling prophecy.

I have never visited the campus, but from what I see in the football stands, the crowd does look very Caucasian, but let’s not forget, many Hispanics do look Caucasian. I’m thinking the few Hispanics that do apply, probably fit the Caucasian look. Those are the ones that are more likely able to afford the tuition. This due to the history of racism and colonialism in Latin America.


Hey, now you are sounding bitter. Are you sure your kid didn't just get outright rejected?


Not bitter at all. My kid did not apply to ND. We fit the “white presenting” Hispanic stereotype, but I am also aware of the history of Latin America.

I forgot to mention that most US Hispanics have mixed indigenous / African / European backgrounds, and probably have not seen many students at ND that look like them if they toured the campus. They would rather attend a school where they felt more students like them.

By the way, my DD is at UVA and enjoying minute of it.


Right, cause that's all you could afford. Nothing wrong with that! My kid also got into UVA but chose ND. Money is no object for us.


I’m not pp. You are an insufferable snob. How would you know what she could afford??? By the way, my very high stats kid is at UVA (Echols) not because it’s all we can afford, rather our kid’s choice. We are full pay and money is no object for us too. Big deal.


Bravo PP. They are insufferable, especially as Notre Dame is $85k a year. Not a good look!


Both are insufferable. Congrats, full pay at second tier schools.


UVA is and has always been a public ivy!


Wahoowa!


UVA is way too big to be a public ivy. It may be called that by some, but it is nothing at all like an ivy. Mine was so turned off by the tour, to much chaos on the weekend, almost all freshman and sophomore classes above 200, many more are 500-800. No way. DC only applied to ivies and similar sized privates, and William and Mary. The quintessential "public ivy" is William and Mary. It is very similar in vibe to ivies, just mildly less selective: it has the quirky intellectuals and the social types, no huge sports/tailgate vibes, smaller parties yet still fun, and hundreds of clubs for a relatively small undergrad population--just like ivies. Sadly USNWR does not include seminar style classes and fac-student ratios as part of their analysis, so WM fell again. Based on overall quality it is a T30.


OMG. I was nodding along with your assessment of UVA not being a "public Ivy" - who even uses that term anymore? But then you started bleating the usual nonsense about W&M being a "public Ivy." NO. Just no. W&M is not similar to an Ivy in any way. Please stop trying to make fetch happen. "Mildly less selective"?
DP


Below are the standardized scores shown in 75/50/25 percentiles for Cornell, UVA, and W&M enrolled students. Yes, Cornell is a bit higher but these objectively are relatively small distinctions. I also note that Cornell's scores are from a smaller percentage of students submitting scores than UVA or W&M.

Cornell: SAT: 99/98/97; ACT: 99/99/98
UVA: SAT: 98/96/94; ACT: 99/98/97
W&M: 98/96/91; ACT: 99/98/97


Cornell has a 7.5% acceptance rate. That you're trying to equate these other two schools to Cornell is really something.


You are just trying to deflect from from straight forward data that shows the differences between enrolled students in objective, standardized measurements is relatively small.


The single-digit acceptance rate tells you that they are far, FAR more selective than a UVA or W&M.


If you are using that as your sole criteria, Northeastern is more selective than Cornell.


Selectivity is a combination of acceptance rate, yield rate, and student stat.
Northeastern is more selective than UVA for sure.


By that token, Northeastern is more selective than Berkeley.
Public schools have a different admissions profile than private schools.


Before covid, test optional, Northeastern's SAT for the bottom 25% crushed UC Berkeley's. State schools have a mandate to admit students from all high schools, so even low performing high schools get a ton of admits to Berkeley. There's nothing wrong with that. While some argue that SATs tell a lot about the academic prowess of students, Berkeley looks for a lot more. As well it should.


Berkeley became flexible about about SAT scores for the bottom of their class soon after california banned affirmative action.
Berkeley does not have to take kids from every high school.
Even UT Austin does not have to take the valedictorian of every high school. The UT SYSTEM has to take the top 10%
Now Berkeley is test blind and we will see how they fare.
I am curious to see if Berkeley still retains any of its signalling value to employers in 4 years.
[Post New]10/02/2024 13:32
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Anonymous wrote:Another year with ND in the top 20. Another year the haters will say it won't last. Always get a chuckle out of this.




Notre Dame is 3.59% black. Shameful


A Catholic school in Indiana isn’t a huge draw for POC? Shocking!!




ahem. Using the same argument, there should be only 18% Catholics at ND because Indiana is only 18% Catholic.

No, when doing this analysis the experts compare to the national percentage of blacks, which is 14%. Hence, Harvard's black population is 14%. So it is at the other top schools. How do they achieve this? By offering generous merit and financial aid packages. Clearly, ND isn't vested in increasing diversity for the sake of its own student body by trying to increase the number if black students, Catholic or not.


4% of US Catholics are black. This lines up with the percent of blacks at Notre Dame. Notre Dame is a religious school and has different institutional priorities than secular universities.


Agree. ND is well known for its religious priorities and the students it attracts. Why anyone would expect different percentages of ND is ludicrous. Move on folks.


+100

I am the one who posted that haters complain each year saying ND doesn't belong in T20. The fact of the matter is that ND will continue to focus it's priorities on its Catholic identity. This means there will be less appeal to the general non-Catholic public and limits its ability to attract people of more diversity. Despite ND's dedication to its strong Catholic identity, it manages to say on top of the rankings, likely because it makes up for this limitation with other very strong characteristics, like it's great academics, beautiful campus, strong athletics, and welcoming community. People here saying that other Catholic institutions manage to have more diversity, keep in mind that those schools are not as blatant about its religious affiliation. Specifically, ND has chapels in all of it's residence halls, a very active basilica on campus, Touchdown Jesus, the grotto, and many of the main student events have an element of religion sprinkled in. This might make some students uncomfortable -- hence the attraction is just not there. Still, it remains a T20 and that is what irks most people here on DCUM.


No, we just find the diversity numbers to be disturbing. ND could do something about that if it chose to. It chooses not to divert funds to recruiting black students.


Or if it wants to focus on Catholic students why doesn't it have more Latino students. It is weird to me that a school that emphasizes it's Catholic identity so much would have so few Latino students. Like ignore diversity for a second -- ND doesn't do a good job of merely representing the *Catholic* community. It's weird.


Catholic Latina mom here. My high stats (fcps grad) kid did not even apply to ND. Our main reason was tuition. We probably would not have qualified for much aid either.

Second reason, although my kids went to k-8 parrochial school, many Latin American Catholics are not super conservative in the religious sense. Most are culturally Catholic, so ND being very focused on their religious identity, was not a draw for my DD.

Third reason: Distance. Most college students in Latin America live at home and commute. Living on campus is not the norm still for US Hispanics. So when comparing percentages of Hispanic students in the US to those enrolled in universities, our numbers will always be lower at “isolated” campuses. In all fairness, my DD lives on campus at an in-state school.

Fourth: North Bend is freaking cold for “my people”. I mean, the word “North” is in the name of the town! Many kids are trying to attend schools in warmer regions anyway.


Thanks for the insight. Seems spot on. But it’s “South Bend.” Not that it makes it any warmer.


Oops! Thanks for the correction.

Also forgot to add…current low Hispanic numbers at ND will continue to make the school less attractive to future applicants. That good old self fulfilling prophecy.

I have never visited the campus, but from what I see in the football stands, the crowd does look very Caucasian, but let’s not forget, many Hispanics do look Caucasian. I’m thinking the few Hispanics that do apply, probably fit the Caucasian look. Those are the ones that are more likely able to afford the tuition. This due to the history of racism and colonialism in Latin America.


Hey, now you are sounding bitter. Are you sure your kid didn't just get outright rejected?


Not bitter at all. My kid did not apply to ND. We fit the “white presenting” Hispanic stereotype, but I am also aware of the history of Latin America.

I forgot to mention that most US Hispanics have mixed indigenous / African / European backgrounds, and probably have not seen many students at ND that look like them if they toured the campus. They would rather attend a school where they felt more students like them.

By the way, my DD is at UVA and enjoying minute of it.


Right, cause that's all you could afford. Nothing wrong with that! My kid also got into UVA but chose ND. Money is no object for us.


I’m not pp. You are an insufferable snob. How would you know what she could afford??? By the way, my very high stats kid is at UVA (Echols) not because it’s all we can afford, rather our kid’s choice. We are full pay and money is no object for us too. Big deal.


Bravo PP. They are insufferable, especially as Notre Dame is $85k a year. Not a good look!


Both are insufferable. Congrats, full pay at second tier schools.


UVA is and has always been a public ivy!


Wahoowa!


UVA is way too big to be a public ivy. It may be called that by some, but it is nothing at all like an ivy. Mine was so turned off by the tour, to much chaos on the weekend, almost all freshman and sophomore classes above 200, many more are 500-800. No way. DC only applied to ivies and similar sized privates, and William and Mary. The quintessential "public ivy" is William and Mary. It is very similar in vibe to ivies, just mildly less selective: it has the quirky intellectuals and the social types, no huge sports/tailgate vibes, smaller parties yet still fun, and hundreds of clubs for a relatively small undergrad population--just like ivies. Sadly USNWR does not include seminar style classes and fac-student ratios as part of their analysis, so WM fell again. Based on overall quality it is a T30.


OMG. I was nodding along with your assessment of UVA not being a "public Ivy" - who even uses that term anymore? But then you started bleating the usual nonsense about W&M being a "public Ivy." NO. Just no. W&M is not similar to an Ivy in any way. Please stop trying to make fetch happen. "Mildly less selective"?
DP


Below are the standardized scores shown in 75/50/25 percentiles for Cornell, UVA, and W&M enrolled students. Yes, Cornell is a bit higher but these objectively are relatively small distinctions. I also note that Cornell's scores are from a smaller percentage of students submitting scores than UVA or W&M.

Cornell: SAT: 99/98/97; ACT: 99/99/98
UVA: SAT: 98/96/94; ACT: 99/98/97
W&M: 98/96/91; ACT: 99/98/97


Cornell has a 7.5% acceptance rate. That you're trying to equate these other two schools to Cornell is really something.


You are just trying to deflect from from straight forward data that shows the differences between enrolled students in objective, standardized measurements is relatively small.


The single-digit acceptance rate tells you that they are far, FAR more selective than a UVA or W&M.


If you are using that as your sole criteria, Northeastern is more selective than Cornell.


Selectivity is a combination of acceptance rate, yield rate, and student stat.
Northeastern is more selective than UVA for sure.


By that token, Northeastern is more selective than Berkeley.
Public schools have a different admissions profile than private schools.


Before covid, test optional, Northeastern's SAT for the bottom 25% crushed UC Berkeley's. State schools have a mandate to admit students from all high schools, so even low performing high schools get a ton of admits to Berkeley. There's nothing wrong with that. While some argue that SATs tell a lot about the academic prowess of students, Berkeley looks for a lot more. As well it should.


Berkeley became flexible about about SAT scores for the bottom of their class soon after california banned affirmative action.
Berkeley does not have to take kids from every high school.
Even UT Austin does not have to take the valedictorian of every high school. The UT SYSTEM has to take the top 10%
Now Berkeley is test blind and we will see how they fare.
I am curious to see if Berkeley still retains any of its signalling value to employers in 4 years.


Maybe for top students with valuable majors like engineering, CS, statistics/applied math, business.


[Post New]10/02/2024 13:53
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Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Why did William and Mary fall so much? Is it a worse school now that US News says it is no better than FSU?


The new ranking criteria places a high value on equity, social mobility, and other non-academic factors. W&M doesn’t score as highly in those areas. It’s a smaller, liberal arts school with a highly academic reputation that is less appealing to minorities. It gets dinged in the ratings because of that.



Go figure.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/social-mobility

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/economic-diversity

2025 usnews rank/School/pell grant %

15/UCLA (Los Angeles)/28
17/UCB (Berkeley)/29
29/UCSD (San Diego)/34
33/UCI (Irvine)/36
33/UCD (Davis)/31
39/UCSB (Santa Barbara)/28
58/UCM (Merced)/58
76/UCR (Riverside)/52

24/UVA/15
54/W&M/12
[Post New]10/02/2024 13:54
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Anonymous
The UC system is widely known for following a de facto high-school based admissions system. Not de jure, that wasn't even implied.

For example, take Dominguez High School, located in Compton, CA.

It has approximately 1,800 students, 95% of whom are low income. 20% have difficulty being taught in English.

UC Berkeley admitted 19 students from Dominguez High out of 69 who applied.

There are no commended national merit scholars nor are there any NMSF winnders at Dominguez High.

University High School in Irvine, CA has approximately 2,400 students. UC Berkeley admitted 29 students out of 248 who applied.

Univeristy High School had 33 National Merit Scholarship Finalists this year. Dozens and dozens more who were commended.

Please tell me again how Berkeley doesn't admit by high school?

[Post New]10/02/2024 13:59
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Anonymous wrote:Another year with ND in the top 20. Another year the haters will say it won't last. Always get a chuckle out of this.




Notre Dame is 3.59% black. Shameful


A Catholic school in Indiana isn’t a huge draw for POC? Shocking!!




ahem. Using the same argument, there should be only 18% Catholics at ND because Indiana is only 18% Catholic.

No, when doing this analysis the experts compare to the national percentage of blacks, which is 14%. Hence, Harvard's black population is 14%. So it is at the other top schools. How do they achieve this? By offering generous merit and financial aid packages. Clearly, ND isn't vested in increasing diversity for the sake of its own student body by trying to increase the number if black students, Catholic or not.


4% of US Catholics are black. This lines up with the percent of blacks at Notre Dame. Notre Dame is a religious school and has different institutional priorities than secular universities.


Agree. ND is well known for its religious priorities and the students it attracts. Why anyone would expect different percentages of ND is ludicrous. Move on folks.


+100

I am the one who posted that haters complain each year saying ND doesn't belong in T20. The fact of the matter is that ND will continue to focus it's priorities on its Catholic identity. This means there will be less appeal to the general non-Catholic public and limits its ability to attract people of more diversity. Despite ND's dedication to its strong Catholic identity, it manages to say on top of the rankings, likely because it makes up for this limitation with other very strong characteristics, like it's great academics, beautiful campus, strong athletics, and welcoming community. People here saying that other Catholic institutions manage to have more diversity, keep in mind that those schools are not as blatant about its religious affiliation. Specifically, ND has chapels in all of it's residence halls, a very active basilica on campus, Touchdown Jesus, the grotto, and many of the main student events have an element of religion sprinkled in. This might make some students uncomfortable -- hence the attraction is just not there. Still, it remains a T20 and that is what irks most people here on DCUM.


No, we just find the diversity numbers to be disturbing. ND could do something about that if it chose to. It chooses not to divert funds to recruiting black students.


Or if it wants to focus on Catholic students why doesn't it have more Latino students. It is weird to me that a school that emphasizes it's Catholic identity so much would have so few Latino students. Like ignore diversity for a second -- ND doesn't do a good job of merely representing the *Catholic* community. It's weird.


Catholic Latina mom here. My high stats (fcps grad) kid did not even apply to ND. Our main reason was tuition. We probably would not have qualified for much aid either.

Second reason, although my kids went to k-8 parrochial school, many Latin American Catholics are not super conservative in the religious sense. Most are culturally Catholic, so ND being very focused on their religious identity, was not a draw for my DD.

Third reason: Distance. Most college students in Latin America live at home and commute. Living on campus is not the norm still for US Hispanics. So when comparing percentages of Hispanic students in the US to those enrolled in universities, our numbers will always be lower at “isolated” campuses. In all fairness, my DD lives on campus at an in-state school.

Fourth: North Bend is freaking cold for “my people”. I mean, the word “North” is in the name of the town! Many kids are trying to attend schools in warmer regions anyway.


Thanks for the insight. Seems spot on. But it’s “South Bend.” Not that it makes it any warmer.


Oops! Thanks for the correction.

Also forgot to add…current low Hispanic numbers at ND will continue to make the school less attractive to future applicants. That good old self fulfilling prophecy.

I have never visited the campus, but from what I see in the football stands, the crowd does look very Caucasian, but let’s not forget, many Hispanics do look Caucasian. I’m thinking the few Hispanics that do apply, probably fit the Caucasian look. Those are the ones that are more likely able to afford the tuition. This due to the history of racism and colonialism in Latin America.


Hey, now you are sounding bitter. Are you sure your kid didn't just get outright rejected?


Not bitter at all. My kid did not apply to ND. We fit the “white presenting” Hispanic stereotype, but I am also aware of the history of Latin America.

I forgot to mention that most US Hispanics have mixed indigenous / African / European backgrounds, and probably have not seen many students at ND that look like them if they toured the campus. They would rather attend a school where they felt more students like them.

By the way, my DD is at UVA and enjoying minute of it.


Right, cause that's all you could afford. Nothing wrong with that! My kid also got into UVA but chose ND. Money is no object for us.


Thank you for response (?). I think my DD is doing just fine, being that my husband and I are both immigrants. UVA should provide our DD some upward mobility. And, yes, it is what we could afford without financial aid or loans.
In my view, and in her’s, she is blessed to be attending UVA.



She is. Her chances for social mobility are indeed greater. Talk about one i
of the greatest boosts in acsdemia and beyond: the Rhodes Scholarship. UVA has produced 56 Rhodes; Notre Dame only 9.


A little history goes a long way. Catholics (and Catholic colleges) received very few Rhodes Scholarships for the first 65 years or so of the award. Cecil Rhodes Anglo-Saxon England was Protestant. And while we are at it, NO awards went to women for the first 75 years. So think of that when you are looking at schools like Wellesley.



[b]If you are claiming that the Rhodes foundation discriminated against Catholics I would like to see proof. The experts at Time Magazine in 1956 say you are wrong. https://time.com/archive/6610699/education-how-to-be-a-rhodes-scholar/. Rhodes' religious preferences are unknown but all powerful British men in the 1860s were Protestant due to something called the Reformation. What does that mean? Nothing. Cull the literature on him. There is nothing about religion being important to him. We do know he was gay. Does that mean his foundation favored gay applicants? Of course not. He was a Mason. Does that mean scholarships went to Masons? Of course not. As the Time Magazine piece points out, the early Rhodes Scgokars came from America's earliest, most established and most elite schools, all of which were founded on some type of protestant religion to train clergy. Nothing more, nothing less.


Why don't you just read the claim and don't add your words. The facts stand.


I did. You are wrong. I can explain why Catholics didn't get some of the earlier Thodes but you clearly don't want to listen to "a bit of history".


OK, I am wrong. Catholics received many of the earlier Rhodes scholarships.


DP. NO ONE cares about Rhodes scholarships in a discussion of college rankings. Good grief.



The subject came up after three boosters for Notre hijacked this thread. Then some mom brought up an irrelevance saying her kids didn't want to stay in VA. Then the thead became Notre Dame vs UVA. The true citation was given that UVA has produced many more Rhodes Scholars than Notre Dame. Thar's how the subject was introduced


There is a wacko UVA booster parent who can't stop himself from bragging (?) about Rhodes Scholars numbers - as if anyone, anywhere actually cares about that metric. Don't take the bait the next time he starts up with his nonsense.


UVa has produced more Rhodes Scholars than any other public university in the country.

Seems worthy of comment.


It's not. Also - West Point has produced twice as many. They are also a public university.



And the Naval Academy has produced roughly the same number of Rhodes Scolars as UVA. But not nearly as many as West Point. If people are using this as their metric, the military academies are clearly the best public universities in America. And it's not even close. The three academies with roughly 13,000 students combined has 4x the number of Rhodes Scholars compared to UVA, which has twice as many students.


Yep. The UVA booster can't bear to admit this fact. She always neglects to mention these facts.



She or he us not neglecting anything. West Point is not open to the "public" because the public cannot wily-nily apply to it. There are congressional recommendations and many other hoops an applicant must jump through including mental and physical fitness (my ownnchild could not appy because he has ADHD). It's a decision not taken lightly because of the military requirement of service. It attracts a very different type of student from across the nation. UVA is a state school. Very different institutions


West Point is still a publicly-funded institution, which was the criteria in this ridiculous discussion. And it still produces twice as many Rhodes Scholars as UVA. Deal with it.
[Post New]10/02/2024 14:00
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Anonymous wrote:Another year with ND in the top 20. Another year the haters will say it won't last. Always get a chuckle out of this.




Notre Dame is 3.59% black. Shameful


A Catholic school in Indiana isn’t a huge draw for POC? Shocking!!




ahem. Using the same argument, there should be only 18% Catholics at ND because Indiana is only 18% Catholic.

No, when doing this analysis the experts compare to the national percentage of blacks, which is 14%. Hence, Harvard's black population is 14%. So it is at the other top schools. How do they achieve this? By offering generous merit and financial aid packages. Clearly, ND isn't vested in increasing diversity for the sake of its own student body by trying to increase the number if black students, Catholic or not.


4% of US Catholics are black. This lines up with the percent of blacks at Notre Dame. Notre Dame is a religious school and has different institutional priorities than secular universities.


Agree. ND is well known for its religious priorities and the students it attracts. Why anyone would expect different percentages of ND is ludicrous. Move on folks.


+100

I am the one who posted that haters complain each year saying ND doesn't belong in T20. The fact of the matter is that ND will continue to focus it's priorities on its Catholic identity. This means there will be less appeal to the general non-Catholic public and limits its ability to attract people of more diversity. Despite ND's dedication to its strong Catholic identity, it manages to say on top of the rankings, likely because it makes up for this limitation with other very strong characteristics, like it's great academics, beautiful campus, strong athletics, and welcoming community. People here saying that other Catholic institutions manage to have more diversity, keep in mind that those schools are not as blatant about its religious affiliation. Specifically, ND has chapels in all of it's residence halls, a very active basilica on campus, Touchdown Jesus, the grotto, and many of the main student events have an element of religion sprinkled in. This might make some students uncomfortable -- hence the attraction is just not there. Still, it remains a T20 and that is what irks most people here on DCUM.


No, we just find the diversity numbers to be disturbing. ND could do something about that if it chose to. It chooses not to divert funds to recruiting black students.


Or if it wants to focus on Catholic students why doesn't it have more Latino students. It is weird to me that a school that emphasizes it's Catholic identity so much would have so few Latino students. Like ignore diversity for a second -- ND doesn't do a good job of merely representing the *Catholic* community. It's weird.


Catholic Latina mom here. My high stats (fcps grad) kid did not even apply to ND. Our main reason was tuition. We probably would not have qualified for much aid either.

Second reason, although my kids went to k-8 parrochial school, many Latin American Catholics are not super conservative in the religious sense. Most are culturally Catholic, so ND being very focused on their religious identity, was not a draw for my DD.

Third reason: Distance. Most college students in Latin America live at home and commute. Living on campus is not the norm still for US Hispanics. So when comparing percentages of Hispanic students in the US to those enrolled in universities, our numbers will always be lower at “isolated” campuses. In all fairness, my DD lives on campus at an in-state school.

Fourth: North Bend is freaking cold for “my people”. I mean, the word “North” is in the name of the town! Many kids are trying to attend schools in warmer regions anyway.


Thanks for the insight. Seems spot on. But it’s “South Bend.” Not that it makes it any warmer.


Oops! Thanks for the correction.

Also forgot to add…current low Hispanic numbers at ND will continue to make the school less attractive to future applicants. That good old self fulfilling prophecy.

I have never visited the campus, but from what I see in the football stands, the crowd does look very Caucasian, but let’s not forget, many Hispanics do look Caucasian. I’m thinking the few Hispanics that do apply, probably fit the Caucasian look. Those are the ones that are more likely able to afford the tuition. This due to the history of racism and colonialism in Latin America.


Hey, now you are sounding bitter. Are you sure your kid didn't just get outright rejected?


Not bitter at all. My kid did not apply to ND. We fit the “white presenting” Hispanic stereotype, but I am also aware of the history of Latin America.

I forgot to mention that most US Hispanics have mixed indigenous / African / European backgrounds, and probably have not seen many students at ND that look like them if they toured the campus. They would rather attend a school where they felt more students like them.

By the way, my DD is at UVA and enjoying minute of it.


Right, cause that's all you could afford. Nothing wrong with that! My kid also got into UVA but chose ND. Money is no object for us.


I’m not pp. You are an insufferable snob. How would you know what she could afford??? By the way, my very high stats kid is at UVA (Echols) not because it’s all we can afford, rather our kid’s choice. We are full pay and money is no object for us too. Big deal.


Bravo PP. They are insufferable, especially as Notre Dame is $85k a year. Not a good look!


Both are insufferable. Congrats, full pay at second tier schools.


UVA is and has always been a public ivy!


Wahoowa!


UVA is way too big to be a public ivy. It may be called that by some, but it is nothing at all like an ivy. Mine was so turned off by the tour, to much chaos on the weekend, almost all freshman and sophomore classes above 200, many more are 500-800. No way. DC only applied to ivies and similar sized privates, and William and Mary. The quintessential "public ivy" is William and Mary. It is very similar in vibe to ivies, just mildly less selective: it has the quirky intellectuals and the social types, no huge sports/tailgate vibes, smaller parties yet still fun, and hundreds of clubs for a relatively small undergrad population--just like ivies. Sadly USNWR does not include seminar style classes and fac-student ratios as part of their analysis, so WM fell again. Based on overall quality it is a T30.


OMG. I was nodding along with your assessment of UVA not being a "public Ivy" - who even uses that term anymore? But then you started bleating the usual nonsense about W&M being a "public Ivy." NO. Just no. W&M is not similar to an Ivy in any way. Please stop trying to make fetch happen. "Mildly less selective"?
DP


Below are the standardized scores shown in 75/50/25 percentiles for Cornell, UVA, and W&M enrolled students. Yes, Cornell is a bit higher but these objectively are relatively small distinctions. I also note that Cornell's scores are from a smaller percentage of students submitting scores than UVA or W&M.

Cornell: SAT: 99/98/97; ACT: 99/99/98
UVA: SAT: 98/96/94; ACT: 99/98/97
W&M: 98/96/91; ACT: 99/98/97


Cornell has a 7.5% acceptance rate. That you're trying to equate these other two schools to Cornell is really something.


You are just trying to deflect from from straight forward data that shows the differences between enrolled students in objective, standardized measurements is relatively small.


The single-digit acceptance rate tells you that they are far, FAR more selective than a UVA or W&M.


If you are using that as your sole criteria, Northeastern is more selective than Cornell.


Sure - when we all know they send their less-accomplished students to satellite campuses for freshman year so they won’t have to include their stats in reporting. Great way to game the system!
[Post New]10/02/2024 14:02
quote
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:The UC system is widely known for following a de facto high-school based admissions system. Not de jure, that wasn't even implied.

For example, take Dominguez High School, located in Compton, CA.

It has approximately 1,800 students, 95% of whom are low income. 20% have difficulty being taught in English.

UC Berkeley admitted 19 students from Dominguez High out of 69 who applied.

There are no commended national merit scholars nor are there any NMSF winnders at Dominguez High.

University High School in Irvine, CA has approximately 2,400 students. UC Berkeley admitted 29 students out of 248 who applied.

Univeristy High School had 33 National Merit Scholarship Finalists this year. Dozens and dozens more who were commended.

Please tell me again how Berkeley doesn't admit by high school?



For anyone even remotely familiar with UC admissions, this is no surprise whatsoever. You compete against your fellow high school students for an admission's spot, not against someone from another high school. The number of students that Berkeley selects from each high school is extremely stable. California has some incredibly good schools and some incredibly, incredibly bad ones.

This produces a massive range of student abilities and readiness.
[Post New]10/02/2024 14:03
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Anonymous
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Anonymous wrote:Another year with ND in the top 20. Another year the haters will say it won't last. Always get a chuckle out of this.




Notre Dame is 3.59% black. Shameful


A Catholic school in Indiana isn’t a huge draw for POC? Shocking!!




ahem. Using the same argument, there should be only 18% Catholics at ND because Indiana is only 18% Catholic.

No, when doing this analysis the experts compare to the national percentage of blacks, which is 14%. Hence, Harvard's black population is 14%. So it is at the other top schools. How do they achieve this? By offering generous merit and financial aid packages. Clearly, ND isn't vested in increasing diversity for the sake of its own student body by trying to increase the number if black students, Catholic or not.


4% of US Catholics are black. This lines up with the percent of blacks at Notre Dame. Notre Dame is a religious school and has different institutional priorities than secular universities.


Agree. ND is well known for its religious priorities and the students it attracts. Why anyone would expect different percentages of ND is ludicrous. Move on folks.


+100

I am the one who posted that haters complain each year saying ND doesn't belong in T20. The fact of the matter is that ND will continue to focus it's priorities on its Catholic identity. This means there will be less appeal to the general non-Catholic public and limits its ability to attract people of more diversity. Despite ND's dedication to its strong Catholic identity, it manages to say on top of the rankings, likely because it makes up for this limitation with other very strong characteristics, like it's great academics, beautiful campus, strong athletics, and welcoming community. People here saying that other Catholic institutions manage to have more diversity, keep in mind that those schools are not as blatant about its religious affiliation. Specifically, ND has chapels in all of it's residence halls, a very active basilica on campus, Touchdown Jesus, the grotto, and many of the main student events have an element of religion sprinkled in. This might make some students uncomfortable -- hence the attraction is just not there. Still, it remains a T20 and that is what irks most people here on DCUM.


No, we just find the diversity numbers to be disturbing. ND could do something about that if it chose to. It chooses not to divert funds to recruiting black students.


Or if it wants to focus on Catholic students why doesn't it have more Latino students. It is weird to me that a school that emphasizes it's Catholic identity so much would have so few Latino students. Like ignore diversity for a second -- ND doesn't do a good job of merely representing the *Catholic* community. It's weird.


Catholic Latina mom here. My high stats (fcps grad) kid did not even apply to ND. Our main reason was tuition. We probably would not have qualified for much aid either.

Second reason, although my kids went to k-8 parrochial school, many Latin American Catholics are not super conservative in the religious sense. Most are culturally Catholic, so ND being very focused on their religious identity, was not a draw for my DD.

Third reason: Distance. Most college students in Latin America live at home and commute. Living on campus is not the norm still for US Hispanics. So when comparing percentages of Hispanic students in the US to those enrolled in universities, our numbers will always be lower at “isolated” campuses. In all fairness, my DD lives on campus at an in-state school.

Fourth: North Bend is freaking cold for “my people”. I mean, the word “North” is in the name of the town! Many kids are trying to attend schools in warmer regions anyway.


Thanks for the insight. Seems spot on. But it’s “South Bend.” Not that it makes it any warmer.


Oops! Thanks for the correction.

Also forgot to add…current low Hispanic numbers at ND will continue to make the school less attractive to future applicants. That good old self fulfilling prophecy.

I have never visited the campus, but from what I see in the football stands, the crowd does look very Caucasian, but let’s not forget, many Hispanics do look Caucasian. I’m thinking the few Hispanics that do apply, probably fit the Caucasian look. Those are the ones that are more likely able to afford the tuition. This due to the history of racism and colonialism in Latin America.


Hey, now you are sounding bitter. Are you sure your kid didn't just get outright rejected?


Not bitter at all. My kid did not apply to ND. We fit the “white presenting” Hispanic stereotype, but I am also aware of the history of Latin America.

I forgot to mention that most US Hispanics have mixed indigenous / African / European backgrounds, and probably have not seen many students at ND that look like them if they toured the campus. They would rather attend a school where they felt more students like them.

By the way, my DD is at UVA and enjoying minute of it.


Right, cause that's all you could afford. Nothing wrong with that! My kid also got into UVA but chose ND. Money is no object for us.


I’m not pp. You are an insufferable snob. How would you know what she could afford??? By the way, my very high stats kid is at UVA (Echols) not because it’s all we can afford, rather our kid’s choice. We are full pay and money is no object for us too. Big deal.


Bravo PP. They are insufferable, especially as Notre Dame is $85k a year. Not a good look!


Both are insufferable. Congrats, full pay at second tier schools.


UVA is and has always been a public ivy!


Wahoowa!


UVA is way too big to be a public ivy. It may be called that by some, but it is nothing at all like an ivy. Mine was so turned off by the tour, to much chaos on the weekend, almost all freshman and sophomore classes above 200, many more are 500-800. No way. DC only applied to ivies and similar sized privates, and William and Mary. The quintessential "public ivy" is William and Mary. It is very similar in vibe to ivies, just mildly less selective: it has the quirky intellectuals and the social types, no huge sports/tailgate vibes, smaller parties yet still fun, and hundreds of clubs for a relatively small undergrad population--just like ivies. Sadly USNWR does not include seminar style classes and fac-student ratios as part of their analysis, so WM fell again. Based on overall quality it is a T30.


OMG. I was nodding along with your assessment of UVA not being a "public Ivy" - who even uses that term anymore? But then you started bleating the usual nonsense about W&M being a "public Ivy." NO. Just no. W&M is not similar to an Ivy in any way. Please stop trying to make fetch happen. "Mildly less selective"?
DP


Below are the standardized scores shown in 75/50/25 percentiles for Cornell, UVA, and W&M enrolled students. Yes, Cornell is a bit higher but these objectively are relatively small distinctions. I also note that Cornell's scores are from a smaller percentage of students submitting scores than UVA or W&M.

Cornell: SAT: 99/98/97; ACT: 99/99/98
UVA: SAT: 98/96/94; ACT: 99/98/97
W&M: 98/96/91; ACT: 99/98/97


Cornell has a 7.5% acceptance rate. That you're trying to equate these other two schools to Cornell is really something.


You are just trying to deflect from from straight forward data that shows the differences between enrolled students in objective, standardized measurements is relatively small.


The single-digit acceptance rate tells you that they are far, FAR more selective than a UVA or W&M.


If you are using that as your sole criteria, Northeastern is more selective than Cornell.


Sure - when we all know they send their less-accomplished students to satellite campuses for freshman year so they won’t have to include their stats in reporting. Great way to game the system!


Just like Emory!!!!
[Post New]10/02/2024 15:06
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Anonymous wrote:Another year with ND in the top 20. Another year the haters will say it won't last. Always get a chuckle out of this.




Notre Dame is 3.59% black. Shameful


A Catholic school in Indiana isn’t a huge draw for POC? Shocking!!




ahem. Using the same argument, there should be only 18% Catholics at ND because Indiana is only 18% Catholic.

No, when doing this analysis the experts compare to the national percentage of blacks, which is 14%. Hence, Harvard's black population is 14%. So it is at the other top schools. How do they achieve this? By offering generous merit and financial aid packages. Clearly, ND isn't vested in increasing diversity for the sake of its own student body by trying to increase the number if black students, Catholic or not.


4% of US Catholics are black. This lines up with the percent of blacks at Notre Dame. Notre Dame is a religious school and has different institutional priorities than secular universities.


Agree. ND is well known for its religious priorities and the students it attracts. Why anyone would expect different percentages of ND is ludicrous. Move on folks.


+100

I am the one who posted that haters complain each year saying ND doesn't belong in T20. The fact of the matter is that ND will continue to focus it's priorities on its Catholic identity. This means there will be less appeal to the general non-Catholic public and limits its ability to attract people of more diversity. Despite ND's dedication to its strong Catholic identity, it manages to say on top of the rankings, likely because it makes up for this limitation with other very strong characteristics, like it's great academics, beautiful campus, strong athletics, and welcoming community. People here saying that other Catholic institutions manage to have more diversity, keep in mind that those schools are not as blatant about its religious affiliation. Specifically, ND has chapels in all of it's residence halls, a very active basilica on campus, Touchdown Jesus, the grotto, and many of the main student events have an element of religion sprinkled in. This might make some students uncomfortable -- hence the attraction is just not there. Still, it remains a T20 and that is what irks most people here on DCUM.


No, we just find the diversity numbers to be disturbing. ND could do something about that if it chose to. It chooses not to divert funds to recruiting black students.


Or if it wants to focus on Catholic students why doesn't it have more Latino students. It is weird to me that a school that emphasizes it's Catholic identity so much would have so few Latino students. Like ignore diversity for a second -- ND doesn't do a good job of merely representing the *Catholic* community. It's weird.


Catholic Latina mom here. My high stats (fcps grad) kid did not even apply to ND. Our main reason was tuition. We probably would not have qualified for much aid either.

Second reason, although my kids went to k-8 parrochial school, many Latin American Catholics are not super conservative in the religious sense. Most are culturally Catholic, so ND being very focused on their religious identity, was not a draw for my DD.

Third reason: Distance. Most college students in Latin America live at home and commute. Living on campus is not the norm still for US Hispanics. So when comparing percentages of Hispanic students in the US to those enrolled in universities, our numbers will always be lower at “isolated” campuses. In all fairness, my DD lives on campus at an in-state school.

Fourth: North Bend is freaking cold for “my people”. I mean, the word “North” is in the name of the town! Many kids are trying to attend schools in warmer regions anyway.


Thanks for the insight. Seems spot on. But it’s “South Bend.” Not that it makes it any warmer.


Oops! Thanks for the correction.

Also forgot to add…current low Hispanic numbers at ND will continue to make the school less attractive to future applicants. That good old self fulfilling prophecy.

I have never visited the campus, but from what I see in the football stands, the crowd does look very Caucasian, but let’s not forget, many Hispanics do look Caucasian. I’m thinking the few Hispanics that do apply, probably fit the Caucasian look. Those are the ones that are more likely able to afford the tuition. This due to the history of racism and colonialism in Latin America.


Hey, now you are sounding bitter. Are you sure your kid didn't just get outright rejected?


Not bitter at all. My kid did not apply to ND. We fit the “white presenting” Hispanic stereotype, but I am also aware of the history of Latin America.

I forgot to mention that most US Hispanics have mixed indigenous / African / European backgrounds, and probably have not seen many students at ND that look like them if they toured the campus. They would rather attend a school where they felt more students like them.

By the way, my DD is at UVA and enjoying minute of it.


Right, cause that's all you could afford. Nothing wrong with that! My kid also got into UVA but chose ND. Money is no object for us.


I’m not pp. You are an insufferable snob. How would you know what she could afford??? By the way, my very high stats kid is at UVA (Echols) not because it’s all we can afford, rather our kid’s choice. We are full pay and money is no object for us too. Big deal.


Bravo PP. They are insufferable, especially as Notre Dame is $85k a year. Not a good look!


Both are insufferable. Congrats, full pay at second tier schools.


UVA is and has always been a public ivy!


Wahoowa!


UVA is way too big to be a public ivy. It may be called that by some, but it is nothing at all like an ivy. Mine was so turned off by the tour, to much chaos on the weekend, almost all freshman and sophomore classes above 200, many more are 500-800. No way. DC only applied to ivies and similar sized privates, and William and Mary. The quintessential "public ivy" is William and Mary. It is very similar in vibe to ivies, just mildly less selective: it has the quirky intellectuals and the social types, no huge sports/tailgate vibes, smaller parties yet still fun, and hundreds of clubs for a relatively small undergrad population--just like ivies. Sadly USNWR does not include seminar style classes and fac-student ratios as part of their analysis, so WM fell again. Based on overall quality it is a T30.


OMG. I was nodding along with your assessment of UVA not being a "public Ivy" - who even uses that term anymore? But then you started bleating the usual nonsense about W&M being a "public Ivy." NO. Just no. W&M is not similar to an Ivy in any way. Please stop trying to make fetch happen. "Mildly less selective"?
DP


Below are the standardized scores shown in 75/50/25 percentiles for Cornell, UVA, and W&M enrolled students. Yes, Cornell is a bit higher but these objectively are relatively small distinctions. I also note that Cornell's scores are from a smaller percentage of students submitting scores than UVA or W&M.

Cornell: SAT: 99/98/97; ACT: 99/99/98
UVA: SAT: 98/96/94; ACT: 99/98/97
W&M: 98/96/91; ACT: 99/98/97


Cornell has a 7.5% acceptance rate. That you're trying to equate these other two schools to Cornell is really something.


You are just trying to deflect from from straight forward data that shows the differences between enrolled students in objective, standardized measurements is relatively small.


The single-digit acceptance rate tells you that they are far, FAR more selective than a UVA or W&M.


If you are using that as your sole criteria, Northeastern is more selective than Cornell.


Sure - when we all know they send their less-accomplished students to satellite campuses for freshman year so they won’t have to include their stats in reporting. Great way to game the system!


Just like Emory!!!!


It's really hilarious that Emory doesn't just game. It was the biggest cheater school of all time together with UCBerkeley and Columbia in the history of US colleges. There has been a bunch of schools got caught flat out cheating, yet, they still talk about Northeastern, the school that played by the rules fair and square, and actually improved the most for the past 30 years or so.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/caught-cheating-colleges-falsify-admissions-data-higher-rankings-flna1c8964083

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012/08/20/emory-misreported-admissions-data-more-decade

https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/uc-berkeley-booted-from-u-s-news-best-college-list-misreporting/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/columbia-scandal-ranking-us-news-michael-thaddeus-b2179691.html


[Post New]10/02/2024 15:26
quote
Anonymous
If I had a kid in California I'd send them to Dominguez High. What a shaft those Irvine students get.
[Post New]10/02/2024 15:46
quote
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:If I had a kid in California I'd send them to Dominguez High. What a shaft those Irvine students get.


LOL, you obviously have no idea of the greater Los Angeles area.
[Post New]10/02/2024 16:26
quote
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
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Anonymous wrote:Another year with ND in the top 20. Another year the haters will say it won't last. Always get a chuckle out of this.




Notre Dame is 3.59% black. Shameful


A Catholic school in Indiana isn’t a huge draw for POC? Shocking!!




ahem. Using the same argument, there should be only 18% Catholics at ND because Indiana is only 18% Catholic.

No, when doing this analysis the experts compare to the national percentage of blacks, which is 14%. Hence, Harvard's black population is 14%. So it is at the other top schools. How do they achieve this? By offering generous merit and financial aid packages. Clearly, ND isn't vested in increasing diversity for the sake of its own student body by trying to increase the number if black students, Catholic or not.


4% of US Catholics are black. This lines up with the percent of blacks at Notre Dame. Notre Dame is a religious school and has different institutional priorities than secular universities.


Agree. ND is well known for its religious priorities and the students it attracts. Why anyone would expect different percentages of ND is ludicrous. Move on folks.


+100

I am the one who posted that haters complain each year saying ND doesn't belong in T20. The fact of the matter is that ND will continue to focus it's priorities on its Catholic identity. This means there will be less appeal to the general non-Catholic public and limits its ability to attract people of more diversity. Despite ND's dedication to its strong Catholic identity, it manages to say on top of the rankings, likely because it makes up for this limitation with other very strong characteristics, like it's great academics, beautiful campus, strong athletics, and welcoming community. People here saying that other Catholic institutions manage to have more diversity, keep in mind that those schools are not as blatant about its religious affiliation. Specifically, ND has chapels in all of it's residence halls, a very active basilica on campus, Touchdown Jesus, the grotto, and many of the main student events have an element of religion sprinkled in. This might make some students uncomfortable -- hence the attraction is just not there. Still, it remains a T20 and that is what irks most people here on DCUM.


No, we just find the diversity numbers to be disturbing. ND could do something about that if it chose to. It chooses not to divert funds to recruiting black students.


Or if it wants to focus on Catholic students why doesn't it have more Latino students. It is weird to me that a school that emphasizes it's Catholic identity so much would have so few Latino students. Like ignore diversity for a second -- ND doesn't do a good job of merely representing the *Catholic* community. It's weird.


Catholic Latina mom here. My high stats (fcps grad) kid did not even apply to ND. Our main reason was tuition. We probably would not have qualified for much aid either.

Second reason, although my kids went to k-8 parrochial school, many Latin American Catholics are not super conservative in the religious sense. Most are culturally Catholic, so ND being very focused on their religious identity, was not a draw for my DD.

Third reason: Distance. Most college students in Latin America live at home and commute. Living on campus is not the norm still for US Hispanics. So when comparing percentages of Hispanic students in the US to those enrolled in universities, our numbers will always be lower at “isolated” campuses. In all fairness, my DD lives on campus at an in-state school.

Fourth: North Bend is freaking cold for “my people”. I mean, the word “North” is in the name of the town! Many kids are trying to attend schools in warmer regions anyway.


Thanks for the insight. Seems spot on. But it’s “South Bend.” Not that it makes it any warmer.


Oops! Thanks for the correction.

Also forgot to add…current low Hispanic numbers at ND will continue to make the school less attractive to future applicants. That good old self fulfilling prophecy.

I have never visited the campus, but from what I see in the football stands, the crowd does look very Caucasian, but let’s not forget, many Hispanics do look Caucasian. I’m thinking the few Hispanics that do apply, probably fit the Caucasian look. Those are the ones that are more likely able to afford the tuition. This due to the history of racism and colonialism in Latin America.


Hey, now you are sounding bitter. Are you sure your kid didn't just get outright rejected?


Not bitter at all. My kid did not apply to ND. We fit the “white presenting” Hispanic stereotype, but I am also aware of the history of Latin America.

I forgot to mention that most US Hispanics have mixed indigenous / African / European backgrounds, and probably have not seen many students at ND that look like them if they toured the campus. They would rather attend a school where they felt more students like them.

By the way, my DD is at UVA and enjoying minute of it.


Right, cause that's all you could afford. Nothing wrong with that! My kid also got into UVA but chose ND. Money is no object for us.


I’m not pp. You are an insufferable snob. How would you know what she could afford??? By the way, my very high stats kid is at UVA (Echols) not because it’s all we can afford, rather our kid’s choice. We are full pay and money is no object for us too. Big deal.


Bravo PP. They are insufferable, especially as Notre Dame is $85k a year. Not a good look!


Both are insufferable. Congrats, full pay at second tier schools.


UVA is and has always been a public ivy!


Wahoowa!


UVA is way too big to be a public ivy. It may be called that by some, but it is nothing at all like an ivy. Mine was so turned off by the tour, to much chaos on the weekend, almost all freshman and sophomore classes above 200, many more are 500-800. No way. DC only applied to ivies and similar sized privates, and William and Mary. The quintessential "public ivy" is William and Mary. It is very similar in vibe to ivies, just mildly less selective: it has the quirky intellectuals and the social types, no huge sports/tailgate vibes, smaller parties yet still fun, and hundreds of clubs for a relatively small undergrad population--just like ivies. Sadly USNWR does not include seminar style classes and fac-student ratios as part of their analysis, so WM fell again. Based on overall quality it is a T30.


OMG. I was nodding along with your assessment of UVA not being a "public Ivy" - who even uses that term anymore? But then you started bleating the usual nonsense about W&M being a "public Ivy." NO. Just no. W&M is not similar to an Ivy in any way. Please stop trying to make fetch happen. "Mildly less selective"?
DP


Below are the standardized scores shown in 75/50/25 percentiles for Cornell, UVA, and W&M enrolled students. Yes, Cornell is a bit higher but these objectively are relatively small distinctions. I also note that Cornell's scores are from a smaller percentage of students submitting scores than UVA or W&M.

Cornell: SAT: 99/98/97; ACT: 99/99/98
UVA: SAT: 98/96/94; ACT: 99/98/97
W&M: 98/96/91; ACT: 99/98/97


Cornell has a 7.5% acceptance rate. That you're trying to equate these other two schools to Cornell is really something.


Acceptance percentage is one of the most irrelevant stats when it comes to claiming academic quality.


Colleges can induce applications, regardless of whether the applicants are qualified, to lower acceptance rates.
[Post New]10/02/2024 18:17
quote
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Why did William and Mary fall so much? Is it a worse school now that US News says it is no better than FSU?


The new ranking criteria places a high value on equity, social mobility, and other non-academic factors. W&M doesn’t score as highly in those areas. It’s a smaller, liberal arts school with a highly academic reputation that is less appealing to minorities. It gets dinged in the ratings because of that.



Go figure.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/social-mobility

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/economic-diversity

2025 usnews rank/School/pell grant %

15/UCLA (Los Angeles)/28
17/UCB (Berkeley)/29
29/UCSD (San Diego)/34
33/UCI (Irvine)/36
33/UCD (Davis)/31
39/UCSB (Santa Barbara)/28
58/UCM (Merced)/58
76/UCR (Riverside)/52

24/UVA/15
54/W&M/12


The percentage of the population in poverty is significantly higher in California. Using the Supplemental Poverty Rate, the poverty rate in California is 57% higher than the poverty rate in Virginia. Pell eligibility is based on an income multiple of the guideline for poverty. That likely explains a significant part of the difference.
[Post New]10/02/2024 18:33
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Anonymous wrote:Another year with ND in the top 20. Another year the haters will say it won't last. Always get a chuckle out of this.




Notre Dame is 3.59% black. Shameful


A Catholic school in Indiana isn’t a huge draw for POC? Shocking!!




ahem. Using the same argument, there should be only 18% Catholics at ND because Indiana is only 18% Catholic.

No, when doing this analysis the experts compare to the national percentage of blacks, which is 14%. Hence, Harvard's black population is 14%. So it is at the other top schools. How do they achieve this? By offering generous merit and financial aid packages. Clearly, ND isn't vested in increasing diversity for the sake of its own student body by trying to increase the number if black students, Catholic or not.


4% of US Catholics are black. This lines up with the percent of blacks at Notre Dame. Notre Dame is a religious school and has different institutional priorities than secular universities.


Agree. ND is well known for its religious priorities and the students it attracts. Why anyone would expect different percentages of ND is ludicrous. Move on folks.


+100

I am the one who posted that haters complain each year saying ND doesn't belong in T20. The fact of the matter is that ND will continue to focus it's priorities on its Catholic identity. This means there will be less appeal to the general non-Catholic public and limits its ability to attract people of more diversity. Despite ND's dedication to its strong Catholic identity, it manages to say on top of the rankings, likely because it makes up for this limitation with other very strong characteristics, like it's great academics, beautiful campus, strong athletics, and welcoming community. People here saying that other Catholic institutions manage to have more diversity, keep in mind that those schools are not as blatant about its religious affiliation. Specifically, ND has chapels in all of it's residence halls, a very active basilica on campus, Touchdown Jesus, the grotto, and many of the main student events have an element of religion sprinkled in. This might make some students uncomfortable -- hence the attraction is just not there. Still, it remains a T20 and that is what irks most people here on DCUM.


No, we just find the diversity numbers to be disturbing. ND could do something about that if it chose to. It chooses not to divert funds to recruiting black students.


Or if it wants to focus on Catholic students why doesn't it have more Latino students. It is weird to me that a school that emphasizes it's Catholic identity so much would have so few Latino students. Like ignore diversity for a second -- ND doesn't do a good job of merely representing the *Catholic* community. It's weird.


Catholic Latina mom here. My high stats (fcps grad) kid did not even apply to ND. Our main reason was tuition. We probably would not have qualified for much aid either.

Second reason, although my kids went to k-8 parrochial school, many Latin American Catholics are not super conservative in the religious sense. Most are culturally Catholic, so ND being very focused on their religious identity, was not a draw for my DD.

Third reason: Distance. Most college students in Latin America live at home and commute. Living on campus is not the norm still for US Hispanics. So when comparing percentages of Hispanic students in the US to those enrolled in universities, our numbers will always be lower at “isolated” campuses. In all fairness, my DD lives on campus at an in-state school.

Fourth: North Bend is freaking cold for “my people”. I mean, the word “North” is in the name of the town! Many kids are trying to attend schools in warmer regions anyway.


Thanks for the insight. Seems spot on. But it’s “South Bend.” Not that it makes it any warmer.


Oops! Thanks for the correction.

Also forgot to add…current low Hispanic numbers at ND will continue to make the school less attractive to future applicants. That good old self fulfilling prophecy.

I have never visited the campus, but from what I see in the football stands, the crowd does look very Caucasian, but let’s not forget, many Hispanics do look Caucasian. I’m thinking the few Hispanics that do apply, probably fit the Caucasian look. Those are the ones that are more likely able to afford the tuition. This due to the history of racism and colonialism in Latin America.


Hey, now you are sounding bitter. Are you sure your kid didn't just get outright rejected?


Not bitter at all. My kid did not apply to ND. We fit the “white presenting” Hispanic stereotype, but I am also aware of the history of Latin America.

I forgot to mention that most US Hispanics have mixed indigenous / African / European backgrounds, and probably have not seen many students at ND that look like them if they toured the campus. They would rather attend a school where they felt more students like them.

By the way, my DD is at UVA and enjoying minute of it.


Right, cause that's all you could afford. Nothing wrong with that! My kid also got into UVA but chose ND. Money is no object for us.


I’m not pp. You are an insufferable snob. How would you know what she could afford??? By the way, my very high stats kid is at UVA (Echols) not because it’s all we can afford, rather our kid’s choice. We are full pay and money is no object for us too. Big deal.


Bravo PP. They are insufferable, especially as Notre Dame is $85k a year. Not a good look!


Both are insufferable. Congrats, full pay at second tier schools.


UVA is and has always been a public ivy!


Wahoowa!


UVA is way too big to be a public ivy. It may be called that by some, but it is nothing at all like an ivy. Mine was so turned off by the tour, to much chaos on the weekend, almost all freshman and sophomore classes above 200, many more are 500-800. No way. DC only applied to ivies and similar sized privates, and William and Mary. The quintessential "public ivy" is William and Mary. It is very similar in vibe to ivies, just mildly less selective: it has the quirky intellectuals and the social types, no huge sports/tailgate vibes, smaller parties yet still fun, and hundreds of clubs for a relatively small undergrad population--just like ivies. Sadly USNWR does not include seminar style classes and fac-student ratios as part of their analysis, so WM fell again. Based on overall quality it is a T30.


OMG. I was nodding along with your assessment of UVA not being a "public Ivy" - who even uses that term anymore? But then you started bleating the usual nonsense about W&M being a "public Ivy." NO. Just no. W&M is not similar to an Ivy in any way. Please stop trying to make fetch happen. "Mildly less selective"?
DP


Below are the standardized scores shown in 75/50/25 percentiles for Cornell, UVA, and W&M enrolled students. Yes, Cornell is a bit higher but these objectively are relatively small distinctions. I also note that Cornell's scores are from a smaller percentage of students submitting scores than UVA or W&M.

Cornell: SAT: 99/98/97; ACT: 99/99/98
UVA: SAT: 98/96/94; ACT: 99/98/97
W&M: 98/96/91; ACT: 99/98/97


Cornell has a 7.5% acceptance rate. That you're trying to equate these other two schools to Cornell is really something.


You are just trying to deflect from from straight forward data that shows the differences between enrolled students in objective, standardized measurements is relatively small.


The single-digit acceptance rate tells you that they are far, FAR more selective than a UVA or W&M.


If you are using that as your sole criteria, Northeastern is more selective than Cornell.


Sure - when we all know they send their less-accomplished students to satellite campuses for freshman year so they won’t have to include their stats in reporting. Great way to game the system!


Just like Emory!!!!


It's really hilarious that Emory doesn't just game. It was the biggest cheater school of all time together with UCBerkeley and Columbia in the history of US colleges. There has been a bunch of schools got caught flat out cheating, yet, they still talk about Northeastern, the school that played by the rules fair and square, and actually improved the most for the past 30 years or so.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/caught-cheating-colleges-falsify-admissions-data-higher-rankings-flna1c8964083

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012/08/20/emory-misreported-admissions-data-more-decade

https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/uc-berkeley-booted-from-u-s-news-best-college-list-misreporting/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/columbia-scandal-ranking-us-news-michael-thaddeus-b2179691.html




Holy cow, did not know about the lies that Emory engaged in. Talk about dishonesty in academia. Shameful.
[Post New]10/02/2024 19:55
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Anonymous wrote:Another year with ND in the top 20. Another year the haters will say it won't last. Always get a chuckle out of this.



Notre Dame is 3.59% black. Shameful


The football and basketball teams.

Oh get over yourselves. ND is heavily Catholic, and there are not many black Catholics. BTW, your beloved UVA is only a few percentage points more black at 7% even though it is a state school in a state that is certainly much more black than that.


You are an idiot. And not a good
Catholic/Christian. UVA is public. ND is private with an enormous endowment that boosters on here brag about - it can throw millions at its diversity problem but chooses not to.

UVA is public. It is relatively small for a flagship and has very limited resources. It has become so selective that it can pick the very best black applicants both in-state and OOS. And why us that not a problem? Because the commonwealth has 30+ other public schools (including the community college guaranteed transfer program) to see to the needs of all Virginians. My DS attended GMU which is the most diverse university in the state with black attendance at 11.4%

And by the way any statistician or anyone in Higher Ed can tell you you cannot compare black percentages of college applicants to overall state demographics for the same reason you can't with hispanic population numbers in CS.

Notre Dame can do much better!


Just to inform you... you realize UVA has a 14 billion endowment right? Not exactly chump change.



Let me "inform you". The Commonwealth decided to start budget reductions to UVA in 2008. UVA decided at that point to spin off towards privatization (see Teresa Sullivan's tenure) to the low point where, today, the total Commmonwealth contribution is only six percent.

What happened? The UVA endowment officers secured amazing returns. UVA's endowment as a shot up under privitisation from less than six million to ten million. The governor and the legislatiure tried to retrieve its power over UVA to regain control. and they failed,

When my DD entered UVA in 2016 everyone knew this. By then UVA's endowment had doubled under privitazation from a low of $6m,

In 2021, UVA endowment officers secured a gain of 41.%. The Commonwealth is still trying to regain control if UVA's wildly successful tide.

Meanwhile, to contrast PP's ignorant post, Harvard's endowment is $6.9 billion. and if you to confine analysis to publics, , UCLA is ay 3.87 billiion. Berkeley is $7.8 billion. And U of Michigan is a whopping $17.9 billion.

And jerks like you are sitting on Notre Dame's $18.9 billion dolllars and pointing fingers at UVA's endowment at $15m. What is wrong with you? Shame on you! Where is Christian giving i. all of this!! Call ND and ask them to throw money at diversity candidates


UVA has not been privatized. There was a restructuring act, and it included more than UVA. https://www.schev.edu/institutions/planning-performance/restructuring-act



DP. They said "towards privitization". It receives only 6% of its budget from the Commonwealth. I don't know what you would call that but no one walks around UVA talking about it being "restructured".


They don't talk about it being private, that's for sure. In practice, UVA would have to buy all the land and physical plant from the State and that isn't going to happen.

As for the 6%, you should give some context. No general fund money has ever gone to support the medical system operating budget, which is supported by patient-related fees, and that is well over half of UVA's budget. So the 6% now only applies to about 42% of the overall budget, which means it is about 14% of the academic budget. But the academic budget includes auxiliary operations spending like room and board, which also have not historically been supported by state general funds at any state institution. So the 6% is offsetting quite a bit of what would need to be made up in higher tuition for in-state students if UVA actually were private. If you look at this on a per capita in state student basis, UVA gets far more than schools like JMU and GMU.



Not true. JMU gets 18% of its budget from the commonwealth; GMU received 35% or more from the legislature


The data is available online. UVA appropriations from the state general fund per in-state Full Time Equivalent student was $11,432 for FY 2023. GMU was $8,194. JMU was $7,994.

https://research.schev.edu/rdPage.aspx?finance&rdReport=finance.FP01_Report


So UVA actually gets 40% more from the state per in-state student than GMU and 43% more than JMU.
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