K-8 vs. K-5/K-6

[Anonymous]

I love the K-8 model schools. Middle school or Jr. High, whether grades 6-8 or 7&8 (it varies by system) just seems to be such a confused educational time for so many students. Obviously their physical development and everything that goes with it is at the root of it all, but can anyone come up with any examples of local middle schools that are better loved than the local elementaries and high schools? It seems to me that with all the change going on the students' lives that the constancy and security of the K-8 model is more likely to get better results for their education.

I'll say up front that this is only my opinion and I would love to be better informed on the subject. If anyone would care to advocate for the opposite side, I'd really appreciate being educated on the subject. Otherwise, I'm comfortable in the K-8 bubble even if it does seem old-fashioned and very private school oriented.

[Anonymous]

DCPS is eliminating 6th grade in elementary school and going to either K-8 (then on to high school) or K-5 (then on to middle school then high school). I couldn't say what the rationale is though for which particular schools get K-8 vs. K-5. If I were to hazard a guess, facility size would be a major concern.

From a system standpoint, one benefit of K-5 + middle school (as opposed to K-8) may be that it broadens the demographics of the student population. The schools look a little more like the general population if all the students don't come from the same socio-economic enclave.

[Anonymous]

I like the K-8 idea, and I am trying to keep my kids in that model.

[Anonymous]

Are there any schools that aren't currently K-8 but are going that way? And what are the K-8 schools in DCPS anyway? I know of some charters that are K-8 and even K-12, but besides Oyster where is K-8 an option?

Also, I think MoCo is K-5, is it the same for the NoVa suburbs?

[Anonymous]

MoCo is still K-5 (sometimes pre-K), 6-8, and 9-12. If I remember correctly, there were studies done (developmental) to support a 6-8 program. So they pushed grade 9 to high school. MCPS will not change at any time soon b/c they've implemented a middle school reform program in stages.

I prefer K-8 myself b/c there is the opportunity for full articulation. In other words, all teachers can talk, collaborate, and ultimately create (or revise) a curriculum which shows a true building of skills.

[Anonymous]

A benefit academically of a middle school or junior high school is that you have more kids per grade level. In THEORY that would allow you to have a 7th grade accelerated math, 7th grade honors math, a few classes of 7th grade regular math, and a 7th grade remedial math. Your typical K-8 school would not have this many options available because it would just be a smaller school. Whether this actually happens in practice is a different story.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A benefit academically of a middle school or junior high school is that you have more kids per grade level. In THEORY that would allow you to have a 7th grade accelerated math, 7th grade honors math, a few classes of 7th grade regular math, and a 7th grade remedial math. Your typical K-8 school would not have this many options available because it would just be a smaller school. Whether this actually happens in practice is a different story.

OP here. To the PP, thank you. That does sound good in theory, as you qualified. Many things do though (sound good in theory) and the devil is in the details. Have you experienced it to be true in practice? I can see the theoretical benefits of greater academic differentiation being lost however, by students who are feeling the need to assert their personalities and test the waters in each new classroom grouping. Are you happy with your local middle school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A benefit academically of a middle school or junior high school is that you have more kids per grade level. In THEORY that would allow you to have a 7th grade accelerated math, 7th grade honors math, a few classes of 7th grade regular math, and a 7th grade remedial math. Your typical K-8 school would not have this many options available because it would just be a smaller school. Whether this actually happens in practice is a different story.

OP here. To the PP, thank you. That does sound good in theory, as you qualified. Many things do though (sound good in theory) and the devil is in the details. Have you experienced it to be true in practice? I can see the theoretical benefits of greater academic differentiation being lost however, by students who are feeling the need to assert their personalities and test the waters in each new classroom grouping. Are you happy with your local middle school?

I think this can indeed happen. However, if you have a teacher experienced in differentiation (which is complex and can only be successful with a very organized and creative teacher), then this should not occur.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A benefit academically of a middle school or junior high school is that you have more kids per grade level. In THEORY that would allow you to have a 7th grade accelerated math, 7th grade honors math, a few classes of 7th grade regular math, and a 7th grade remedial math. Your typical K-8 school would not have this many options available because it would just be a smaller school. Whether this actually happens in practice is a different story.

OP here. To the PP, thank you. That does sound good in theory, as you qualified. Many things do though (sound good in theory) and the devil is in the details. Have you experienced it to be true in practice? I can see the theoretical benefits of greater academic differentiation being lost however, by students who are feeling the need to assert their personalities and test the waters in each new classroom grouping. Are you happy with your local middle school?

My kids aren't in middle school yet so I have no idea.

How it worked in my very large middle school (7th - 9th) growing up was, there was one honors class for math and English in 7th grade, and in 8th grade they added honors Social Studies and Science. In 9th they added Super-Advanced tracks too (they called them somehting else).

What this meant though, was that effectively a small group of kids taking the honors classes pretty much saw the same kids throughout the day, as we all had the same classes and thus the same schedule. So, for the honors track kids, there really wasn't a lot of having to miz with new kids each class period. I am guessing that the kids who took "Consumer Math" and other remedial courses also had the same experience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A benefit academically of a middle school or junior high school is that you have more kids per grade level. In THEORY that would allow you to have a 7th grade accelerated math, 7th grade honors math, a few classes of 7th grade regular math, and a 7th grade remedial math. Your typical K-8 school would not have this many options available because it would just be a smaller school. Whether this actually happens in practice is a different story.

OP here. To the PP, thank you. That does sound good in theory, as you qualified. Many things do though (sound good in theory) and the devil is in the details. Have you experienced it to be true in practice? I can see the theoretical benefits of greater academic differentiation being lost however, by students who are feeling the need to assert their personalities and test the waters in each new classroom grouping. Are you happy with your local middle school?

My kids aren't in middle school yet so I have no idea.

How it worked in my very large middle school (7th - 9th) growing up was, there was one honors class for math and English in 7th grade, and in 8th grade they added honors Social Studies and Science. In 9th they added Super-Advanced tracks too (they called them somehting else).

What this meant though, was that effectively a small group of kids taking the honors classes pretty much saw the same kids throughout the day, as we all had the same classes and thus the same schedule. So, for the honors track kids, there really wasn't a lot of having to miz with new kids each class period. I am guessing that the kids who took "Consumer Math" and other remedial courses also had the same experience.

I have similar memories (although mine was Jr. High School - grades 7 & 8 ). I was in the honors (nerd) track on all available subjects. It was awkward and painful to choose the nerd classes. I'm not ultimately sorry I did it (nor was I at the time), but it nonetheless bothered me that I had to choose between popularity and academic success. Did I learn more Algebra, English grammar, and 8th grade American History than my peers? Yes. Was I more confident in my academic abilities? Yes. Was it worth it to be programmed from pre-puberty into the geek track? I'm not sure. I got the Ntl. Merit Scholarship and the Top 5 degree anyway, but I went into it from a much less socially confident standpoint than many of my peers. Academic success just wasn't "cool" in Jr. High. I found myself envious of my new friends in H.S. who arrived straight from K-8 private schools where high expectations were the norm.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have similar memories (although mine was Jr. High School - grades 7 & 8 ). I was in the honors (nerd) track on all available subjects. It was awkward and painful to choose the nerd classes. I'm not ultimately sorry I did it (nor was I at the time), but it nonetheless bothered me that I had to choose between popularity and academic success. Did I learn more Algebra, English grammar, and 8th grade American History than my peers? Yes. Was I more confident in my academic abilities? Yes. Was it worth it to be programmed from pre-puberty into the geek track? I'm not sure. I got the Ntl. Merit Scholarship and the Top 5 degree anyway, but I went into it from a much less socially confident standpoint than many of my peers. Academic success just wasn't "cool" in Jr. High. I found myself envious of my new friends in H.S. who arrived straight from K-8 private schools where high expectations were the norm.

Sorry, hit the wrong button.

What I was envious of - specifically - of my new H.S. friends from private schools was that they arrived in H.S. with two extra years of being able to be high performers in their cozy little elementary school worlds without being labeled nerds. Public schools kids like myself had been differentiated from our peers in grade 7 and it was work to make any social recovery. I was a cheerleader for a year (which I hated) but it was an effort to salvage my popularity.

I would definitely like to avoid this for my children!

[Anonymous]

The difference in my experience, PP , was that I hated elementary school, where I was a real nerd and stood out. Middle school and the "nerd track" was the first time I was able to have some challenging work at school and actually be with some kids who were more like me, interested in learning and school work.

If the option is a challenging K-8 school, I think that would have been just as good from an academic standpoint.

I guess I'm saying, the thing with a K-8 school is that it is usually smaller than a 7-9 middle school. That USUALLY means the teachers teach to one level -- which USUALLY is the middle of the group. So a K-8 school might be a good one teaching to the "solid average" student, but not able to meet the needs of the outliers -- those who need a lot of extra help, those who are very advanced. If the K-8 school is a particularly challenging one, then the kids who are on the low-average and low side, or those with learning disorders, obviously would be the ones who would be having trouble.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A benefit academically of a middle school or junior high school is that you have more kids per grade level. In THEORY that would allow you to have a 7th grade accelerated math, 7th grade honors math, a few classes of 7th grade regular math, and a 7th grade remedial math. Your typical K-8 school would not have this many options available because it would just be a smaller school. Whether this actually happens in practice is a different story.

Fairfax County does not do this. It has huge middle schools with about 800 to 100 students . All but one - Glasgow [6-8]- have only 2 grade levels 7 and 8. It still busses students to GT centers even if there are enough to run 3 levels of non special ed classes at the base school. It is a boundary issue and politics NOT really an academic issue. Costs a lot of money that they don't have to waste in this budget. In theory you have come up with a good prctical way to deliver quality academics at a reasonable price. Private schools usually hav the top 2 levels -acelerated and honors. I don't think 5-8 or 6-8 are great since there are extreme social differences.

If a student is advanced in math and might take geometry in grade 8 and not at a GT center they might make the child take an on-line class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Fairfax County does not do this. It has huge middle schools with about 800 to 100 students . All but one - Glasgow [6-8]- have only 2 grade levels 7 and 8. It still busses students to GT centers even if there are enough to run 3 levels of non special ed classes at the base school. It is a boundary issue and politics NOT really an academic issue. Costs a lot of money that they don't have to waste in this budget. In theory you have come up with a good prctical way to deliver quality academics at a reasonable price. Private schools usually hav the top 2 levels -acelerated and honors. I don't think 5-8 or 6-8 are great since there are extreme social differences.

If a student is advanced in math and might take geometry in grade 8 and not at a GT center they might make the child take an on-line class.

800 - 1000 students and they don't do G&T on site? Yikes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A benefit academically of a middle school or junior high school is that you have more kids per grade level. In THEORY that would allow you to have a 7th grade accelerated math, 7th grade honors math, a few classes of 7th grade regular math, and a 7th grade remedial math. Your typical K-8 school would not have this many options available because it would just be a smaller school. Whether this actually happens in practice is a different story.

Fairfax County does not do this. It has huge middle schools with about 800 to 100 students . All but one - Glasgow [6-8]- have only 2 grade levels 7 and 8. It still busses students to GT centers even if there are enough to run 3 levels of non special ed classes at the base school. It is a boundary issue and politics NOT really an academic issue. Costs a lot of money that they don't have to waste in this budget. In theory you have come up with a good prctical way to deliver quality academics at a reasonable price. Private schools usually hav the top 2 levels -acelerated and honors. I don't think 5-8 or 6-8 are great since there are extreme social differences.

If a student is advanced in math and might take geometry in grade 8 and not at a GT center they might make the child take an on-line class.

Hmmm... that doesn't sound right to me. I just read this over the summer about Fairfax:

Other area school systems also are pushing students far beyond grade-level math. The goal is to shorten the time it takes students to reach Algebra I and broaden access to a course considered a foundation for later success on the SAT, in Advanced Placement study and in college. In Fairfax County schools, 29 percent of elementary students are on an accelerated track that compresses six years of study into four, preparing them for algebra in seventh grade. A majority of Arlington County students enroll in algebra by eighth grade, and at least two-fifths of students complete algebra in middle school in most other Washington area systems.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/03/AR2008060303438_pf.html

If almost 30% of elementary kids are preparing to take algebra in 7th grade -- clearly they must be offering both algegra AND non-algebra classes in the 7th grade middle schools?

In addition Fairfax County has the IB program in some middle schools, right?