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K-8 vs. K-5/K-6
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Anonymous
| My point being -- it would be harder to offer those classes and programs in a small K-8 school. |
Anonymous
I think that with all of these additional programs (Middle Years Programme, the "lower" version of IB, for example, and GT), we often lose sight of the basics. ANY child with a strong foundation in K-8 can be successful in IB, AP or honors classes at the high school level. There really is no need to bring out the bells and whistles at this point. So many elementary and middle school children are being pushed into accelerated classes when they don't even know the basics. Try doing algebra when you can't even subtract. I posted earlier, and stressed that am a proponent of K-8, especially if there is articulation among the grade levels. In terms of those on the perimeter, most K-8 schools accommodate children with learning challenges and offer differentiated instruction to those at the extreme ends. I remember being placed in a very small math group to learn the basics of algebra b/c I had mastered 8th grade math. On the flip side, there were at least five students who were given extra reading instruction b/c their reading scores were low. And with a smaller, more intimate setting, the teachers really get to know the students. |
Anonymous
Well, you have made some statements of opinion, there (bolded). Others might disagree with you, but then, that's why there are different types of schools! |
Anonymous
That's not entirely true, at least not in the sense of there being both K-5/K-6 and K-8 to choose from and parents are selecting K-5/K-6 in greater numbers. Really, the School Board is making decisions driven by, among other things, politics and budgets, not to mention the legacy system they've inherited. I think a lot of parents would select the smaller K-8 model if the choice were available. Many, in fact, do just that when they opt for private schools. |
Anonymous
I am certain people will disagree with me, but being a secondary educator in a public high school with AP, IB, and honors classes, those coming from a K-8 school are, on the whole, much better prepared - even ahead of those who come from a school with a Middle Years Programme (http://www.ibo.org/myp/ - some general info.). These students are resourceful because although they were held accountable for academic performance, their performance was not evaluated by standardized tests. Socially, it is a bit more difficult for them considering that most peer groups were formed during the middle school years in the public system. However, once the initial shock is over, most blend in fine. Furthermore, with budget cuts, these specialized programs are often cut. I've seen firsthand the cuts in the IB programs, which ultimately affect both teachers and students. So, in a nutshell, if you're given the basics, and you end up with a solid foundation, you'll do fine in any institution. again - no bells and whistles necessary . . . in my opinion, PP, based on my experiences |
Anonymous
Very interesting and informative, PP. Thank you. Out of curiosity, where do you teach? You may be uncomfortable revealing the school, but maybe you could share the county? |
Anonymous
OK -- I am trying to understand where you are coming from. You teach public high school, and you are saying kids from K-8 schools come to you much better prepared than the ones from the 6-8 middle schools are. Yet you say that these kids come to you having NOT had to take standardized tests...so... Are you saying the kids from K-8 PRIVATE schools are better prepared than the kids from the 6-8 PUBLIC schools? Because if so, you are comparing two different things. For one thing, as I am sure you are aware, public schools have to take everyone. In my experience (as a teacher at a private school) a lot of private schools do everything they can to NOT accept students with anything other than the mildest of learning disabilities. And, if a child does turn out to have special learning needs (above and beyond needing a little extra reading help) they just cannot and will not attempt to deal with it. So your typical K-8 private school, by the time the kids get up into the middle grades, are going to have a rather homogenous set of students. If it is a really "good" school, those kids are all going to have pretty high IQs There are certainly not ging to me a lot of mildly mentally retarded children at these competitive private schools. Meanwhile, back at the public schools, they really DO have to differentiate on all levels of the curriculum. So the question to me is, what is the difference for a public school, that has to take every student who wants to attend -- K-5 and 6-8; or K-8? What I want to know is, how well does your local PUBLIC school handle k-8 kids? Are they able to offer a great curriculum for those kids at the highest academic level? If I misunderstood you, and you are saying in your experience, kids from the PUBLIC k-8 schools are doing better than kids from the PUBLIC 6-8 schools, then that is significant to me, please let me know. |
Anonymous
Montgomery County - excellent school system overall, I'd say - So I'm not trying to cause trouble here. I simply believe that if the county embraced a K-8 philosophy, the kids would come better prepared overall. But with our large population, that's physically (space, buildings) impossible. |
Anonymous
Wow! Where do I start? First of all, I am product of both private and public, and both offered me different types of instruction - valuable in different ways. I know for a fact that most private, K-8 schools are homogeneous in nature. There is one, however, in my neighborhood that is very diverse b/c it truly reflects the surrounding area. Having said that, the kids are motivated b/c their parents place a high value on education, but considering the school is quite small, they don't necessarily represent the typical students in the area (academically). And no, this school is not equipped to take someone who has the slightest case of MR. However, they do work with children with learning challenges - whether on site with a private specialist or off site at a nearby public school SPED program, for example. So the flexibility is there. I'm not sure if that's the case for most private schools - most likely not. But as you and I both know, there are private schools that specialize in learning issues - Maddux, for example, in Bethesda (not K-8 but it does have a solid reputation for preparing kids to be mainstreamed). My friend - whose daughter attends - will soon break the bank to make the next tuition payment! Public high schools offer many more courses and programs for students coming from a K-8 school. So the opportunities for challenging themselves, for expanding horizons (socially and academically), and for obtaining college credit are there. We've had tenth graders take AP courses - quite a stretch but worthwhile for many of them. IB, in particular, is quite challenging b/c it's an entire program that's very global and integrated in its approach. Personally? I loved teaching AP courses b/c I'm much more technical. If a student is in IB, s/he has little room for electives, but students taking AP courses can also fit in yearbook or newspaper, for example. So it depends on the student's personality. The K-8 programs are smaller, more intimate. So the teachers naturally "talk," for lack of a better word. And teachers are empowered to do what they like - w/in parameters, of course - with the curriculum. Of course the students take tests - IQ tests, but that testing is mostly for placement purposes. No one is telling them that if they don't pass the English High School Assessment there's no chance of graduating. K-8 teachers are not as confined. Now, having said that, the middle school philosophy is undergoing reform. Many have now taken on a signature program hoping to draw in students based upon their interests. And based on my experiences, public school teachers - at least my good friends and colleagues - are equipped to handle all types of kids. They have enough strategies to fill volumes. Our English inclusion classes are wonderful b/c the main teacher and the special educator just "get each other." Their lessons are interesting and differentiated. And by the time the year has ended, the regular ed kids don't even blink an eye at a child who suffers from tics or one who needs special equipment. That's the beauty of public school. There is just less control with middle school b/c these children are coming from different elementary schools. But b/c size is an issue, the county has to break the schools down in this manner. So teachers (most . . . there are slackers in every profession!) do the best they can. And let me end this by saying that OF COURSE there are bright, prepared and motivated students coming from our feeder middle schools! So I don't mean to put down any schools. I just wanted to share some insight b/c I found this topic interesting. Hopefully, I haven't confused you! |
Anonymous
As an experienced educator, and one who's clearly given the matter some thought, are you aware of any movement towards more K-8 schools? Or any school systems that have K-8 offerings? Do we have to go to private schools to find them? |
Anonymous
Again -- you are talking about the *private* K-8 schols, correct? Not the public ones? There is just less control with middle school b/c [b]these children are coming from different elementary schools. But b/c size is an issue, the county has to break the schools down in this manner. So teachers (most . . . there are slackers in every profession!) do the best they can. [/b] That's a good point. I hadn't thought of that. In our area, there is talk of moving ALL public elementary schools to the K-8 model. IMO I'd be for it, if they could guarantee that the K-8 school my 6th grader ended up in, would be as wonderful as a fancy private schoo K-8, with entrance exams and standards for continued enrollment. But... I'm not so sure that's going to happen. |
Anonymous
Where are you PP? The only (public) K-8 schools I know of in DC are Oyster and a handful of charter schools. |
Anonymous
| Most if not all parish Catholic schools are K-8. Aside from the religious differences, you can take a closer look at them for comparison as they tend not to be exclusive (they don't test for admittance). I think the difference is in a positive one in maturity and confidence of the child, the negative is that there aren't as many educational opportunities for 6,7,8th grade as in a more focused middle school. |
Anonymous
Yes, private schools - as there are no K-8 public schools in Mo Co Where are you located? What a great change to go K-8. I'd be excited by that. I doubt, however, that they'll require entrance exams unless some of the K-8 schools become magnet schools. I'm assuming that these schools will have to have more than one grade level? |
Anonymous
I doubt Mo Co will change from middle to K-8. However, one of the other PPs mentioned that his/her system was looking into that: "In our area, there is talk of moving ALL public elementary schools to the K-8 model." But I don't know where PP lives. I found this on line - gives some of the pros and cons for both: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/2008/12/28/20081228edmiddleschool1228.html I am not familiar with The Arizona Republic, but the article does include some good research. |