Anonymous wrote:As a central Texan, a Democrat, a lifelong visitor to Kerrville, a former camper there, a prospective retiree to the area, and a friend and relative to many who have been impacted by this - I don't cast blame anywhere. There is so much complicated history and culture in that area of the state that is hard to understand from the outside. The external criticism will only make it more insular.
And blame is beside the point in any case. I know people can't help themselves though.
No doubt there will be an implementation of more effective warning signals along the Guadalupe river - like sirens. There is little to no cell service (on purpose) so they may also increase cell tower numbers. However the sirens will only be as effective as the NWS data and the alertness of local officials. Mystic and the other impacted camps are where the kids of the most influential families in the state spend their summer so there will be changes but they will not blame the camps. However, my guess is that at least one or more will have to shutter completely because they are not the most financially stable organizations in this day and age.
You're ridiculous. Parents have already gone on record blaming the camp. Children have died, PP. You're not reading the situation well. Of course the governor and other officials are putting a brave face on it, but they're passing the buck. Parents of children who died WILL blame everyone in charge, and they will be entirely right!
I have not seen a thing that the governor said so I don’t even know what you’re talking about there nor do I care what he says. My point in my post is that there’s a lot of blaming going on by people who don’t really understand the full story. The parents can blame whoever they want. But my prediction is that the camps will not bear the brunt of it.
I’m unsure what else the camps were supposed to do other than what they did but that is where my ignorance comes in. I guess you can say they should not have relied on local officials but rather have direct communication with the NWS (if that is even a thing). Or they should have pressed harder for the warning sirens years ago. But again, the sirens only work if the local officials are doing their jobs and have the data they need. Or they could have put the cabins higher up even though the water has never in the camp history gotten that high much less that fast (and ditto to several other camps in the area.)
I also can’t emphasize enough that there are flash flood warnings often out there, but they are akin to stay home and don’t drive. Not evacuation orders. If you will note, there were no evacuation orders of any kind given by anyone thus the missing people all along the river, even in town, not just the camp.
And I’m going to assume that the person blaming the counselors is a troll. There are at least two counselors missing from Mystic. They were the counselors in the cabin that was most affected. I’ve personally heard stories about 19-year-old counselors who broke windows to get out and led their campers up to safety and sang songs with them under a tree in the dark in the pouring rain.
Ignorance indeed.
1. The Governor just said: "Now we know prayers work" - because not more peopled died, presumably? He's a big climate change denier. That remark just shows he won't accept any blame whatsoever and is desperately trying to squeeze praise out of this.
2. The county the camp is in refused to upgrade the flood warning system that they themselves identified as being old and inefficient. Apparently they've been debating it for years and nothing got done, because some middle managers thought funds should go elsewhere.
3. The camp should not have had cabins so low next to a river that is known to flood. Other camps did not have cabins set up so low.
So right off the bat, 24hrs after the tragedy, you have a Governor who is proud of the outcome, a county whose kids died because it refused to put in a better warning system (unlike the county next to it), and a camp with cabins too close to the river, unlike other camps.
YOU THINK THERE'S NO BLAME TO GO AROUND?
The camp should have had a warning system and a safety plan given how many they had at the camp. There is tons of blame but ultimately it’s on the camp.
No, the blame is spread equally. A camp cannot have a warning system: it can move cabins to higher ground and hold practice evacuations, however. It's the countries who set up the weather alert sirens. The next county over apparently did that, but this county did not. And the Governor is toxic.
Why can’t a camp have a warning system? I mean I agree it would be better if the county had it, but why can’t a camp set up a siren or something that the first person who realizes something is amiss can activate, the way a fire alarm gets activated by the first person who sees flames.
You would still need someone paying attention for watches and warnings from NWS, it wouldn’t be automatic, but it would be better than putting little girls to bed in a flood plain where there had been 4 catastrophic floods in 99 years, and then going to bed during a flash flood watch.
PP you replied to. Because it's simply way too expensive. Warning systems are linked to official meteorological stations and need computer models, rain gauges, automatic readings of same, distribution of alerts, digital and mechanical, and personnel that's trained to monitor the system 24/7. A camp could never, ever afford something like that. The smallest met warning systems are county systems, integrated into emergency management offices. Which that county refused to upgrade. Hence why the county is very much to blame!
The county needs a state-of-the-art system, and when it activates, each hospital, nursing home, school, workplace, summer camp, etc, have their own evac procedure. That's how it's usually done.
Make no mistake, people. There's a ton of blame to be handed out to all levels of government plus the camp.
Yes, the government is to blame for not installing a state of the art system for a random rural county in Texas. I can tell you never lived anywhere rural! Lol
I don’t even have county water and only recently got WiFi, there is no way the government can afford sirens for every square inch of the US. Do you have any idea how large this country is? I’m in tornado country and we don’t even have sirens for that, they drive around in a truck with a siren attached as if that is going to help. It’s not practical. You fend for yourself and are grateful to do it. We don’t even want the government’s help with this stuff.
They didn't need anything that expensive. Just a $20 weather radio and someone to listen to it. But that is too much to ask of citizens.
They already had phones with weather apps and notifications, we all do. Flash floods are not expected, especially one of this magnitude that would be larger than any of the previous ones which did not have the same impact. It’s a tragic accident, it happens, no one is to blame. I don’t spend the night in the basement every time there is a tornado watch, and neither does anyone else because if I did, I’d live in the basement half the summer.
That’s absolutely not true. The national weather service has experts that can warn people in a way that a weather app cannot. There’s people were fired 600 of them were fired by DOGE.
People voted for this and people are gonna die. They’re dying because USAID was defunding. They’re dying because the national weather service was defunded.
You need to start learning to own your mistakes
That’s absurd. 600 fired means 12 per state. You think having 12 more employees in a state the size of Texas would have changed this? Especially given it was a holiday and most were lightly staffed, I doubt if even one more employee would have been on duty that night. Nothing would have changed.
Anonymous wrote:Residents have no one to blame except themselves. They, as taxpayers don’t want to use their tax dollars to pay for a warning system. They want less government. They are RED. Basically, MAGA Trumpers. Reap what you sow. Listen to the warnings. Those poor little girls, drowning, suffering.
You are clueless. You have no idea how small these towns are. They do not have the funding for this. I actually haven’t heard anything about families suing the camp. People are coming together as a community to support the families involved, the discussions about it could not be further from this thread.
You’re making a great case for a robust state and federal government powers. Rural riverside areas that have a small tax base but are incredibly popular with tourists during the summer are the quintessential example of the larger governmental entity to fill the void to ensure safety.
But this would require Texan elites to reexamine their priors.
Yes, because most of us know that “ensure safety” is not feasible no matter how much government you have. Natural disasters happen.
Anonymous wrote:Residents have no one to blame except themselves. They, as taxpayers don’t want to use their tax dollars to pay for a warning system. They want less government. They are RED. Basically, MAGA Trumpers. Reap what you sow. Listen to the warnings. Those poor little girls, drowning, suffering.
You are clueless. You have no idea how small these towns are. They do not have the funding for this. I actually haven’t heard anything about families suing the camp. People are coming together as a community to support the families involved, the discussions about it could not be further from this thread.
Of course, nobody expects a small town to be able to do with the national weather service can do. That’s why we have a federal government you dolt.
But you voted for them to go away and now you have dead children on your hands
You’re disgusting. I didn’t vote for Trump (lifelong Dem) but I would raise my kids in these communities over anywhere else in the world. Grew up in SF, college and grad school in DC, London after, got married and raising kids in TX and will never leave.
Anonymous wrote:The crazy thing is that there are around 20 summer camps on or near the Guadalupe River, which has been known to flood before. Who thought that was a good idea?
+1. Let’s put a bunch of kids to bed in a cabin next to a giant flood-prone river! It’s the same as those homes in NC. They were super close to the water.
People should not be allowed to do that. They have no common sense.
To be fair, in both cases the structures had been there for 100+ years. It’s not unreasonable that people weren’t that concerned.
Anonymous wrote:Residents have no one to blame except themselves. They, as taxpayers don’t want to use their tax dollars to pay for a warning system. They want less government. They are RED. Basically, MAGA Trumpers. Reap what you sow. Listen to the warnings. Those poor little girls, drowning, suffering.
You are clueless. You have no idea how small these towns are. They do not have the funding for this. I actually haven’t heard anything about families suing the camp. People are coming together as a community to support the families involved, the discussions about it could not be further from this thread.
Of course, nobody expects a small town to be able to do with the national weather service can do. That’s why we have a federal government you dolt.
But you voted for them to go away and now you have dead children on your hands
The poster before that literally said the locals were to blame so some people are expecting the small town to do this.
Anonymous wrote:Residents have no one to blame except themselves. They, as taxpayers don’t want to use their tax dollars to pay for a warning system. They want less government. They are RED. Basically, MAGA Trumpers. Reap what you sow. Listen to the warnings. Those poor little girls, drowning, suffering.
You are clueless. You have no idea how small these towns are. They do not have the funding for this. I actually haven’t heard anything about families suing the camp. People are coming together as a community to support the families involved, the discussions about it could not be further from this thread.
Of course, nobody expects a small town to be able to do with the national weather service can do. That’s why we have a federal government you dolt.
But you voted for them to go away and now you have dead children on your hands
Wait until they find out what’s coming for rural hospitals.
Anonymous wrote:That camp is going to get the f&ck sued out of them.
But on a different note, I am so, so sad for all the families who lost people, especially children. I can't stop thinking about all those little girls drowning. It's horrific.
Especially since their clientele are the moneyed, connected type. I doubt the camp will ever reopen.
Does it matter? The camp’s net worth plus their insurance policy limits won’t be nearly enough to pay out for 20+ child deaths.
Anonymous wrote:The crazy thing is that there are around 20 summer camps on or near the Guadalupe River, which has been known to flood before. Who thought that was a good idea?
“Flooding” probably used to mean the flat grassy areas got water logged and if it got really bad, the floors of the a few cabins got wet.
Anonymous wrote:People can both be horrified by the loss of the children and want people to understand these are real consequences of politics.
How both of those things get expressed is critical but too often people use “don’t be political now” as a way to avoid responsibility for the consequences of their policies.
+1
Some people are so horrified by these events that they want to reflect and make changes to prevent future tragedies.
Other don’t. Good luck with your prayers or whatever.
Anonymous wrote:As a central Texan, a Democrat, a lifelong visitor to Kerrville, a former camper there, a prospective retiree to the area, and a friend and relative to many who have been impacted by this - I don't cast blame anywhere. There is so much complicated history and culture in that area of the state that is hard to understand from the outside. The external criticism will only make it more insular.
And blame is beside the point in any case. I know people can't help themselves though.
No doubt there will be an implementation of more effective warning signals along the Guadalupe river - like sirens. There is little to no cell service (on purpose) so they may also increase cell tower numbers. However the sirens will only be as effective as the NWS data and the alertness of local officials. Mystic and the other impacted camps are where the kids of the most influential families in the state spend their summer so there will be changes but they will not blame the camps. However, my guess is that at least one or more will have to shutter completely because they are not the most financially stable organizations in this day and age.
You're ridiculous. Parents have already gone on record blaming the camp. Children have died, PP. You're not reading the situation well. Of course the governor and other officials are putting a brave face on it, but they're passing the buck. Parents of children who died WILL blame everyone in charge, and they will be entirely right!
I have not seen a thing that the governor said so I don’t even know what you’re talking about there nor do I care what he says. My point in my post is that there’s a lot of blaming going on by people who don’t really understand the full story. The parents can blame whoever they want. But my prediction is that the camps will not bear the brunt of it.
I’m unsure what else the camps were supposed to do other than what they did but that is where my ignorance comes in. I guess you can say they should not have relied on local officials but rather have direct communication with the NWS (if that is even a thing). Or they should have pressed harder for the warning sirens years ago. But again, the sirens only work if the local officials are doing their jobs and have the data they need. Or they could have put the cabins higher up even though the water has never in the camp history gotten that high much less that fast (and ditto to several other camps in the area.)
I also can’t emphasize enough that there are flash flood warnings often out there, but they are akin to stay home and don’t drive. Not evacuation orders. If you will note, there were no evacuation orders of any kind given by anyone thus the missing people all along the river, even in town, not just the camp.
And I’m going to assume that the person blaming the counselors is a troll. There are at least two counselors missing from Mystic. They were the counselors in the cabin that was most affected. I’ve personally heard stories about 19-year-old counselors who broke windows to get out and led their campers up to safety and sang songs with them under a tree in the dark in the pouring rain.
Ignorance indeed.
1. The Governor just said: "Now we know prayers work" - because not more peopled died, presumably? He's a big climate change denier. That remark just shows he won't accept any blame whatsoever and is desperately trying to squeeze praise out of this.
2. The county the camp is in refused to upgrade the flood warning system that they themselves identified as being old and inefficient. Apparently they've been debating it for years and nothing got done, because some middle managers thought funds should go elsewhere.
3. The camp should not have had cabins so low next to a river that is known to flood. Other camps did not have cabins set up so low.
So right off the bat, 24hrs after the tragedy, you have a Governor who is proud of the outcome, a county whose kids died because it refused to put in a better warning system (unlike the county next to it), and a camp with cabins too close to the river, unlike other camps.
YOU THINK THERE'S NO BLAME TO GO AROUND?
The camp should have had a warning system and a safety plan given how many they had at the camp. There is tons of blame but ultimately it’s on the camp.
No, the blame is spread equally. A camp cannot have a warning system: it can move cabins to higher ground and hold practice evacuations, however. It's the countries who set up the weather alert sirens. The next county over apparently did that, but this county did not. And the Governor is toxic.
Why can’t a camp have a warning system? I mean I agree it would be better if the county had it, but why can’t a camp set up a siren or something that the first person who realizes something is amiss can activate, the way a fire alarm gets activated by the first person who sees flames.
You would still need someone paying attention for watches and warnings from NWS, it wouldn’t be automatic, but it would be better than putting little girls to bed in a flood plain where there had been 4 catastrophic floods in 99 years, and then going to bed during a flash flood watch.
PP you replied to. Because it's simply way too expensive. Warning systems are linked to official meteorological stations and need computer models, rain gauges, automatic readings of same, distribution of alerts, digital and mechanical, and personnel that's trained to monitor the system 24/7. A camp could never, ever afford something like that. The smallest met warning systems are county systems, integrated into emergency management offices. Which that county refused to upgrade. Hence why the county is very much to blame!
The county needs a state-of-the-art system, and when it activates, each hospital, nursing home, school, workplace, summer camp, etc, have their own evac procedure. That's how it's usually done.
Make no mistake, people. There's a ton of blame to be handed out to all levels of government plus the camp.
Yes, the government is to blame for not installing a state of the art system for a random rural county in Texas. I can tell you never lived anywhere rural! Lol
I don’t even have county water and only recently got WiFi, there is no way the government can afford sirens for every square inch of the US. Do you have any idea how large this country is? I’m in tornado country and we don’t even have sirens for that, they drive around in a truck with a siren attached as if that is going to help. It’s not practical. You fend for yourself and are grateful to do it. We don’t even want the government’s help with this stuff.
They didn't need anything that expensive. Just a $20 weather radio and someone to listen to it. But that is too much to ask of citizens.
They already had phones with weather apps and notifications, we all do. Flash floods are not expected, especially one of this magnitude that would be larger than any of the previous ones which did not have the same impact. It’s a tragic accident, it happens, no one is to blame. I don’t spend the night in the basement every time there is a tornado watch, and neither does anyone else because if I did, I’d live in the basement half the summer.
That’s absolutely not true. The national weather service has experts that can warn people in a way that a weather app cannot. There’s people were fired 600 of them were fired by DOGE.
People voted for this and people are gonna die. They’re dying because USAID was defunding. They’re dying because the national weather service was defunded.
You need to start learning to own your mistakes
That’s absurd. 600 fired means 12 per state. You think having 12 more employees in a state the size of Texas would have changed this? Especially given it was a holiday and most were lightly staffed, I doubt if even one more employee would have been on duty that night. Nothing would have changed.
It’s laughable to me that you think that the federal government assigns people to states. LAUGHABLE, how ignorant you are.
Yes, I think 600 employees would have saved those girls lives.
You are responsible for the death of these children get over it.
Anonymous wrote:The crazy thing is that there are around 20 summer camps on or near the Guadalupe River, which has been known to flood before. Who thought that was a good idea?
“Flooding” probably used to mean the flat grassy areas got water logged and if it got really bad, the floors of the a few cabins got wet.
There have been multiple catastrophic floods in this area. Maybe not quite as high but definitelynot "the floors of a few cabins got wet". Sometimes it hit when the camp wasn't in session, another time it killed 10 campers at a different nearby camp.
Anonymous wrote:Residents have no one to blame except themselves. They, as taxpayers don’t want to use their tax dollars to pay for a warning system. They want less government. They are RED. Basically, MAGA Trumpers. Reap what you sow. Listen to the warnings. Those poor little girls, drowning, suffering.
You are clueless. You have no idea how small these towns are. They do not have the funding for this. I actually haven’t heard anything about families suing the camp. People are coming together as a community to support the families involved, the discussions about it could not be further from this thread.
Of course, nobody expects a small town to be able to do with the national weather service can do. That’s why we have a federal government you dolt.
But you voted for them to go away and now you have dead children on your hands
You’re disgusting. I didn’t vote for Trump (lifelong Dem) but I would raise my kids in these communities over anywhere else in the world. Grew up in SF, college and grad school in DC, London after, got married and raising kids in TX and will never leave.
You sound insufferable you’re the type of Democrat that people hate. The fact is people voted for the defending of the national weather service and now we have dead children.
Anonymous wrote:Residents have no one to blame except themselves. They, as taxpayers don’t want to use their tax dollars to pay for a warning system. They want less government. They are RED. Basically, MAGA Trumpers. Reap what you sow. Listen to the warnings. Those poor little girls, drowning, suffering.
You are clueless. You have no idea how small these towns are. They do not have the funding for this. I actually haven’t heard anything about families suing the camp. People are coming together as a community to support the families involved, the discussions about it could not be further from this thread.
Of course, nobody expects a small town to be able to do with the national weather service can do. That’s why we have a federal government you dolt.
But you voted for them to go away and now you have dead children on your hands
The poster before that literally said the locals were to blame so some people are expecting the small town to do this.
Try to read a little bit slower. Locals are responsible because they voted for a president who literally fired 600 people that would’ve prevented this.
Anonymous wrote:The crazy thing is that there are around 20 summer camps on or near the Guadalupe River, which has been known to flood before. Who thought that was a good idea?
Civilizations have been built around rivers since the beginning of mankind. The Nile River basin flooded annually and yet they still built Luxor next to it.
It’s almost as if humans refuse to learn from history and actively thwart progressive thinking.
Anonymous wrote:As a central Texan, a Democrat, a lifelong visitor to Kerrville, a former camper there, a prospective retiree to the area, and a friend and relative to many who have been impacted by this - I don't cast blame anywhere. There is so much complicated history and culture in that area of the state that is hard to understand from the outside. The external criticism will only make it more insular.
And blame is beside the point in any case. I know people can't help themselves though.
No doubt there will be an implementation of more effective warning signals along the Guadalupe river - like sirens. There is little to no cell service (on purpose) so they may also increase cell tower numbers. However the sirens will only be as effective as the NWS data and the alertness of local officials. Mystic and the other impacted camps are where the kids of the most influential families in the state spend their summer so there will be changes but they will not blame the camps. However, my guess is that at least one or more will have to shutter completely because they are not the most financially stable organizations in this day and age.
You're ridiculous. Parents have already gone on record blaming the camp. Children have died, PP. You're not reading the situation well. Of course the governor and other officials are putting a brave face on it, but they're passing the buck. Parents of children who died WILL blame everyone in charge, and they will be entirely right!
I have not seen a thing that the governor said so I don’t even know what you’re talking about there nor do I care what he says. My point in my post is that there’s a lot of blaming going on by people who don’t really understand the full story. The parents can blame whoever they want. But my prediction is that the camps will not bear the brunt of it.
I’m unsure what else the camps were supposed to do other than what they did but that is where my ignorance comes in. I guess you can say they should not have relied on local officials but rather have direct communication with the NWS (if that is even a thing). Or they should have pressed harder for the warning sirens years ago. But again, the sirens only work if the local officials are doing their jobs and have the data they need. Or they could have put the cabins higher up even though the water has never in the camp history gotten that high much less that fast (and ditto to several other camps in the area.)
I also can’t emphasize enough that there are flash flood warnings often out there, but they are akin to stay home and don’t drive. Not evacuation orders. If you will note, there were no evacuation orders of any kind given by anyone thus the missing people all along the river, even in town, not just the camp.
And I’m going to assume that the person blaming the counselors is a troll. There are at least two counselors missing from Mystic. They were the counselors in the cabin that was most affected. I’ve personally heard stories about 19-year-old counselors who broke windows to get out and led their campers up to safety and sang songs with them under a tree in the dark in the pouring rain.
Ignorance indeed.
1. The Governor just said: "Now we know prayers work" - because not more peopled died, presumably? He's a big climate change denier. That remark just shows he won't accept any blame whatsoever and is desperately trying to squeeze praise out of this.
2. The county the camp is in refused to upgrade the flood warning system that they themselves identified as being old and inefficient. Apparently they've been debating it for years and nothing got done, because some middle managers thought funds should go elsewhere.
3. The camp should not have had cabins so low next to a river that is known to flood. Other camps did not have cabins set up so low.
So right off the bat, 24hrs after the tragedy, you have a Governor who is proud of the outcome, a county whose kids died because it refused to put in a better warning system (unlike the county next to it), and a camp with cabins too close to the river, unlike other camps.
YOU THINK THERE'S NO BLAME TO GO AROUND?
The camp should have had a warning system and a safety plan given how many they had at the camp. There is tons of blame but ultimately it’s on the camp.
No, the blame is spread equally. A camp cannot have a warning system: it can move cabins to higher ground and hold practice evacuations, however. It's the countries who set up the weather alert sirens. The next county over apparently did that, but this county did not. And the Governor is toxic.
Why can’t a camp have a warning system? I mean I agree it would be better if the county had it, but why can’t a camp set up a siren or something that the first person who realizes something is amiss can activate, the way a fire alarm gets activated by the first person who sees flames.
You would still need someone paying attention for watches and warnings from NWS, it wouldn’t be automatic, but it would be better than putting little girls to bed in a flood plain where there had been 4 catastrophic floods in 99 years, and then going to bed during a flash flood watch.
PP you replied to. Because it's simply way too expensive. Warning systems are linked to official meteorological stations and need computer models, rain gauges, automatic readings of same, distribution of alerts, digital and mechanical, and personnel that's trained to monitor the system 24/7. A camp could never, ever afford something like that. The smallest met warning systems are county systems, integrated into emergency management offices. Which that county refused to upgrade. Hence why the county is very much to blame!
The county needs a state-of-the-art system, and when it activates, each hospital, nursing home, school, workplace, summer camp, etc, have their own evac procedure. That's how it's usually done.
Make no mistake, people. There's a ton of blame to be handed out to all levels of government plus the camp.
Yes, the government is to blame for not installing a state of the art system for a random rural county in Texas. I can tell you never lived anywhere rural! Lol
I don’t even have county water and only recently got WiFi, there is no way the government can afford sirens for every square inch of the US. Do you have any idea how large this country is? I’m in tornado country and we don’t even have sirens for that, they drive around in a truck with a siren attached as if that is going to help. It’s not practical. You fend for yourself and are grateful to do it. We don’t even want the government’s help with this stuff.
They didn't need anything that expensive. Just a $20 weather radio and someone to listen to it. But that is too much to ask of citizens.
They already had phones with weather apps and notifications, we all do. Flash floods are not expected, especially one of this magnitude that would be larger than any of the previous ones which did not have the same impact. It’s a tragic accident, it happens, no one is to blame. I don’t spend the night in the basement every time there is a tornado watch, and neither does anyone else because if I did, I’d live in the basement half the summer.
That’s absolutely not true. The national weather service has experts that can warn people in a way that a weather app cannot. There’s people were fired 600 of them were fired by DOGE.
People voted for this and people are gonna die. They’re dying because USAID was defunding. They’re dying because the national weather service was defunded.
You need to start learning to own your mistakes
That’s absurd. 600 fired means 12 per state. You think having 12 more employees in a state the size of Texas would have changed this? Especially given it was a holiday and most were lightly staffed, I doubt if even one more employee would have been on duty that night. Nothing would have changed.
It’s laughable to me that you think that the federal government assigns people to states. LAUGHABLE, how ignorant you are.
Yes, I think 600 employees would have saved those girls lives.
You are responsible for the death of these children get over it.
DP
Please explain how 600 employees around the country would’ve saved them. Because I don’t understand how. Would they have gone out to the camp and carried them out in the middle of the flood? Would they have taken up watch locations on the riverbank at various places to keep an eye on the river? Would they have stood over the camp counselors and camp director like test proctors and made sure they paid attention to the automated alerts that were being sent ?
What would they have done?
You need to be very, very specific, if you’re going to make such a statement.
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