do college admissions get ugly at the Big3 when all the parents are Ivy grads?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Back to the original question: Yes!
And double yes for all highly selective colleges.
Counselors steer kids away from each other without telling.
Kids are afraid to speak about where they are applying, even to their closest friends.
The schools pretend it is all hunky-dory and it is not.

This hasn't been our experience with more than one who has gone through the process, so have a sense of how many kids applied to the same schools for ED.

Double digits each to Penn, Yale, Harvard, Northwestern, Brown, Chicago, with 5+ to places like Cornell, NYU and 2-4 at places like Haverford/Swarthmore/Amherst/Williams That is like 70-80% of the classes. That isn't steering away. Steering away is what the NE Boarding schools do, where the vet the kids and won't even send a transcript to an ED unless it is approved by the CCO. In other words, what I have seen is the CCO at our "big3" basically supporting whatever choices the kids want to make, regardless of how little their chances might be.

Your belief is that these schools are effectively lying to kids? I don’t believe it.

We know from the SFS litigation that they provide each school that a student applies to with what is called a “ Secondary School Report”. That report effectively ranks each of the applicants from SFS to that school.

If they I are outwardly supporting each student to apply to every school they want while not telling them, at least generally, that their ranking about students within that school for admission are even low then they would be putting themselves in continued risk for more lawsuits because it would be unethical.

If you listen to your counselor, they will tell you that the application is going to be a long reach or to consider other options. Yet some kids, or more likely, their parents, believe that their kid will be the one to buck the odds and get into DreamU early.

It just isn't the case anymore than a 3.7+ 1530+ kid from a school like Sidwell is a shoe-in for a tippy top reach school. Times have changed and parents and students have to be more realistic.

Yes but the colleges are feeling the loss of more polished students that are not just book smart. It takes more than being a good student to be successful in many fields and these colleges are admitting a fair amount of good students who are missing other important characteristics. Being polished and well spoken go a long way in any field. Being able to ace the SAT does not mean I am giving you my inheritance to manage or that you bring the personality to have multiple business meetings. The schools that don’t realize this will be impacted negatively.

Because all public school kids with high sat scores are unpolished social misfits. Got it.

Nobody said that. PP just said that there’s more to acceptance than high scores and grades from a private.

Hello pp. Yeah... You kinda did. Colleges are "feeling the loss of more polished students." Who come from... Private schools. And not elsewhere.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Back to the original question: Yes!
And double yes for all highly selective colleges.
Counselors steer kids away from each other without telling.
Kids are afraid to speak about where they are applying, even to their closest friends.
The schools pretend it is all hunky-dory and it is not.

This hasn't been our experience with more than one who has gone through the process, so have a sense of how many kids applied to the same schools for ED.

Double digits each to Penn, Yale, Harvard, Northwestern, Brown, Chicago, with 5+ to places like Cornell, NYU and 2-4 at places like Haverford/Swarthmore/Amherst/Williams That is like 70-80% of the classes. That isn't steering away. Steering away is what the NE Boarding schools do, where the vet the kids and won't even send a transcript to an ED unless it is approved by the CCO. In other words, what I have seen is the CCO at our "big3" basically supporting whatever choices the kids want to make, regardless of how little their chances might be.

Your belief is that these schools are effectively lying to kids? I don’t believe it.

We know from the SFS litigation that they provide each school that a student applies to with what is called a “ Secondary School Report”. That report effectively ranks each of the applicants from SFS to that school.

If they I are outwardly supporting each student to apply to every school they want while not telling them, at least generally, that their ranking about students within that school for admission are even low then they would be putting themselves in continued risk for more lawsuits because it would be unethical.

So basically you think counselors should just say you will never get into a top school bc of your ranking, which the kids don’t know, and only apply to low ranking schools?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Back to the original question: Yes!
And double yes for all highly selective colleges.
Counselors steer kids away from each other without telling.
Kids are afraid to speak about where they are applying, even to their closest friends.
The schools pretend it is all hunky-dory and it is not.

I dunno. I guess we'll know for sure in April if not before, but this big3 parent thinks the process has been pleasant so far. DC is the spawn of one T5 parent and one SLAC parent, and we let the kid drive the entire process. Kid is genuinely uninterested in either of our alma maters and genuinely uninterested in all but one Ivy for its nearly unique program/major.

I suspect that the HYP-or-bust families at this same school WOULD tell you it's unfair, hopeless, rigged, shitty etc etc. I know some of these parents pretty well, and they are unpleasant AF and their kids are anxiety-ridden messes (albeit, with amazing curated ECs and top grades.)

Our family views the same situation very differently than these ppl at big3. We both may be right because we have different goals.

Let me guess, you are full pay and plan on being back up for pulling strings for job placement and/ or will fund Law school ?

Your perspective might be seen as smug to parents who just have a bright kid, but no connections and no trust fund

NP As if being full pay is an indication of high privilege at a freaking private school? We are full pay and can fund undergrad and grad school but no trust funds and there are families who have HHIs and NWs probably 10x ours. Doesn’t mean we’re HYP-or-bust. That’s a stressful attitude to have and transmit to your children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Back to the original question: Yes!
And double yes for all highly selective colleges.
Counselors steer kids away from each other without telling.
Kids are afraid to speak about where they are applying, even to their closest friends.
The schools pretend it is all hunky-dory and it is not.

This hasn't been our experience with more than one who has gone through the process, so have a sense of how many kids applied to the same schools for ED.

Double digits each to Penn, Yale, Harvard, Northwestern, Brown, Chicago, with 5+ to places like Cornell, NYU and 2-4 at places like Haverford/Swarthmore/Amherst/Williams That is like 70-80% of the classes. That isn't steering away. Steering away is what the NE Boarding schools do, where the vet the kids and won't even send a transcript to an ED unless it is approved by the CCO. In other words, what I have seen is the CCO at our "big3" basically supporting whatever choices the kids want to make, regardless of how little their chances might be.

Your belief is that these schools are effectively lying to kids? I don’t believe it.

We know from the SFS litigation that they provide each school that a student applies to with what is called a “ Secondary School Report”. That report effectively ranks each of the applicants from SFS to that school.

If they I are outwardly supporting each student to apply to every school they want while not telling them, at least generally, that their ranking about students within that school for admission are even low then they would be putting themselves in continued risk for more lawsuits because it would be unethical.

Tell us more about the "Secondary School Report." I believe this is a standard overview of the school and not as you describer. I'm skeptical that it could be used to rank applicants. For example, in some cases, for DD, the Secondary School Report was received by her schools in October. It is plausible that other students hadn't even decided to apply to the same school by October. So, the school couldn't possibly have ranked the applicants by the time the report was sent.

On the other hand, if you are accurate, what does that mean for a fair and holistic review of an applicant by the colleges?

[Anonymous]

Isn’t class rank a standard part of the application? Certainly my public high school used this metric in the 90s and wouldn’t be insidious for SFS to use it either. (But I have no insider info about sidwell specifically).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Back to the original question: Yes!
And double yes for all highly selective colleges.
Counselors steer kids away from each other without telling.
Kids are afraid to speak about where they are applying, even to their closest friends.
The schools pretend it is all hunky-dory and it is not.

This hasn't been our experience with more than one who has gone through the process, so have a sense of how many kids applied to the same schools for ED.

Double digits each to Penn, Yale, Harvard, Northwestern, Brown, Chicago, with 5+ to places like Cornell, NYU and 2-4 at places like Haverford/Swarthmore/Amherst/Williams That is like 70-80% of the classes. That isn't steering away. Steering away is what the NE Boarding schools do, where the vet the kids and won't even send a transcript to an ED unless it is approved by the CCO. In other words, what I have seen is the CCO at our "big3" basically supporting whatever choices the kids want to make, regardless of how little their chances might be.

Your belief is that these schools are effectively lying to kids? I don’t believe it.

We know from the SFS litigation that they provide each school that a student applies to with what is called a “ Secondary School Report”. That report effectively ranks each of the applicants from SFS to that school.

If they I are outwardly supporting each student to apply to every school they want while not telling them, at least generally, that their ranking about students within that school for admission are even low then they would be putting themselves in continued risk for more lawsuits because it would be unethical.

Tell us more about the "Secondary School Report." I believe this is a standard overview of the school and not as you describer. I'm skeptical that it could be used to rank applicants. For example, in some cases, for DD, the Secondary School Report was received by her schools in October. It is plausible that other students hadn't even decided to apply to the same school by October. So, the school couldn't possibly have ranked the applicants by the time the report was sent.

On the other hand, if you are accurate, what does that mean for a fair and holistic review of an applicant by the colleges?

Np here. I believe the report includes a ranking (1-3 or A-C or similar scoring) which indicates the level of rigor of the child's 4 yr curriculum (1 or A is most rigorous) and leadership/school-specific attributes (1/A is most school involvement/important school achievements). I believe these reports are sent to most colleges & universities (who are familiar with the caliber of students from that private).
These reports are generally very common at all privates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Isn’t class rank a standard part of the application? Certainly my public high school used this metric in the 90s and wouldn’t be insidious for SFS to use it either. (But I have no insider info about sidwell specifically).

No class rank at many privates. if your school doesn't rank, these reports fill that role.

[Anonymous]

The "secondary school report" indeed shows the full school curriculum and ranks the applicants rigor to the curriculum. It isn't a class rank, more like an enhanced school profile with the applicants rating within that context.

It in no way is a class rank - Sidwell doesn't even do that, nor does it rank kids as applicants to any one school. It is bordering on libel for the PP who suggested this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The "secondary school report" indeed shows the full school curriculum and ranks the applicants rigor to the curriculum. It isn't a class rank, more like an enhanced school profile with the applicants rating within that context.

It in no way is a class rank - Sidwell doesn't even do that, nor does it rank kids as applicants to any one school. It is bordering on libel for the PP who suggested this.

this is exactly what i understand it to be. it fleshes out the rigor of the courses.

it is absolutely not a ranking.

[Anonymous]

The document that people are talking about is usually referred to as the school profile and is something that was discussed earlier in this thread. It's up to the school what info to include in the document that they provide to colleges and some schools include more info than others as far as providing grade distributions in specific classes, standardized test score ranges and profiles for students from the school, and other info. Other schools--though not all--make their high school profile available to parents and even to the general public. This is the document that was being discussed for Germantown Friends and Penn Charter that they make available, so negating any suggestion that there is something "Quakerly" about a school not sharing information. In DC, at least StA and NCS have their profiles available to the public on their web sites. Sidwell does not share its profile. It's another way in which Sidwell is anything but transparent with students and parents in the college admissions process.

[Anonymous]

That is fine. But a PP above inferred that the College Guidance office was ranking kids or certain kids at the expense of others. That is simply at best, an ill-informed statement, and at worse, a quite malicious statement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:That is fine. But a PP above inferred that the College Guidance office was ranking kids or certain kids at the expense of others. That is simply at best, an ill-informed statement, and at worse, a quite malicious statement.

OK, got it. The PP is also I think talking about the Secondary School Report, which is the document that the counselor fills out through the common app for each applicant, and that accompanies the counselor's recommendation. According to the allegations in the Adetu litigation, Sidwell does qualitatively rank applicants against each other through the secondary school reports that they submit, with rankings including "excellent" "very good" and "good." I have no idea whether this is accurate or not, though the writer of the article in Inside Higher Ed (who is a high school college counselor himself) treats the assertions as accurate.

Here is a link to the article: https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/views/2019/07/08/suit-sidwell-friends-parents-shows-what-parents-will-never-accept

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Back to the original question: Yes!
And double yes for all highly selective colleges.
Counselors steer kids away from each other without telling.
Kids are afraid to speak about where they are applying, even to their closest friends.
The schools pretend it is all hunky-dory and it is not.

This hasn't been our experience with more than one who has gone through the process, so have a sense of how many kids applied to the same schools for ED.

Double digits each to Penn, Yale, Harvard, Northwestern, Brown, Chicago, with 5+ to places like Cornell, NYU and 2-4 at places like Haverford/Swarthmore/Amherst/Williams That is like 70-80% of the classes. That isn't steering away. Steering away is what the NE Boarding schools do, where the vet the kids and won't even send a transcript to an ED unless it is approved by the CCO. In other words, what I have seen is the CCO at our "big3" basically supporting whatever choices the kids want to make, regardless of how little their chances might be.

Your belief is that these schools are effectively lying to kids? I don’t believe it.

We know from the SFS litigation that they provide each school that a student applies to with what is called a “ Secondary School Report”. That report effectively ranks each of the applicants from SFS to that school.

If they I are outwardly supporting each student to apply to every school they want while not telling them, at least generally, that their ranking about students within that school for admission are even low then they would be putting themselves in continued risk for more lawsuits because it would be unethical.

So basically you think counselors should just say you will never get into a top school bc of your ranking, which the kids don’t know, and only apply to low ranking schools?

This is a valuable piece of information. So, do all schools ( Public & Private) have to do provide this back channel class rank and, if so, who initiates it ? Is this a requirement imposed by all Public and Private Universities or do the schools offer it voluntarily ?

Seems if this is true then that puts it back on teachers who are deciding who gets what grade

[Anonymous]

It is a piece of false information. See the discussion up thread on this page.

[Anonymous]

I went to an Ivy League from a Big 3 in the 90s. Would never get in in today's environment, so I am not pushing it on my child for anything!