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war in Gaza
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Anonymous
In an effort to avoid hijacking the thread of the person who posted about travel to Israel, I figured I'd continue the political aspect of the discussion in a new thread.
Yes, this whole thing is very defensive in nature on the part of Israel. That is why 600+ Palestinians are dead compared to Israel's, what, 4? Israel is intentionally striking UN schools and hospitals, drastically limiting humanitarian aid, workers, etc. in Gaza, and barring journos from entering Gaza despite the Israeli supreme court saying that they couldn't be barred. It doesn't sound very defensive to me. Perhaps if Israel didn't keep Palestinians locked up in slums with no access to even basic necessities for living, they wouldn't feel so pissed off. And don't even get me started on the settlements... With that said, I don't think Hamas, et. al. are blameless either, but basically that they are in power was entirely Bush's fuck up. Just about everybody in the know told Bush to not insist on elections in Palestine. Anyway, I think that both sides are so entrenched in this conflict (in the broader sense, not this particular flare up) that it is really to the point where neither side can recognize or admit their own faults in perpetuating the conflict. But I couldn't let the statement that Israel is currently acting defensively go without question. |
jsteele
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For a real horror story about what's happening in Gaza, see this article:
According to the article, 70 people were killed in the house. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/4162193/Gaza-medics-describe-horror-of-strike-which-killed-70.html Its not clear to me how rounding up 100 members of a family into a house and then shelling it will help stop rockets. Its more likely to provoke people to fire more rockets. |
Anonymous
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I've always been sypathetic to Israel, but this time I think they have gone too far. They now seem to be actively attacking UN convoys/facilities in order to cease humanatarian aid to Gaza. Almost half of the 1.5 million residents rely on this aid. I know Israel is doing this to bear pressure on Hamas, but the ones who will really pay our innocent children.
I was alarmed when I heard that they forbade all foreign journalists from Gaza and now we know why. They don't want the rest of the world to see their tactics, which - quite honestly - for those who are even sympathetic to them (i.e., I think Hamas is completely to blame for bringing this war on), will repulse even us. |
Anonymous
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There was an excellent article in Yesterday's Salon about this by Kamiya. Basically, he states the obvious, which is that Israel is a state like any other state, and that they should be held to the same standard of behavior as any other state. Imagine if this were Syria or any other country behaving in this disproportionate manner towards an aggressor.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/kamiya/2009/01/06/gaza_war/ Israel is not allowing the media in to witness the carnage, and does not value Palestinian life at all. |
Anonymous
Can somebody explain to me how this is anything other than ethnic cleansing? |
Anonymous
It is interesting to note that not a single major news agency or newspaper (besides the telegraph) has reported on this story. Not even Al Jazeera, which can hardly be accused of being sympathetic to Israel 
Looks like this story is a hoax. |
Anonymous
| What about the children left stranded, starving, with the corpses of their parents while the Israeli army looked on and did nothing, and prevented the Red Crescent from providing aid? What about the attack on the UN convoy. Also manufactured? |
Anonymous
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So long as the Palestinian people allow Hamas fighters in their midst (in schools, markets, heavily populated areas) to launch rockets from those areas, the retaliatory bombs are going to hit civilians.
The Palestinian people need to rise against Hamas and say "no mas!" Until they do that, there will be innocent blood shed on both sides. |
Anonymous
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And so by your rationalization, it's completely proportional to kill over 100 Palestinians for every Israeli killed, and you truly believe that Israel will be able to achieve peace through these actions?
You put the entire onus on the Palestinians to stop this violence, and suggest that the only way for them to avoid being killed is for them to figure out the answer to peace in the middle east. Priceless. |
Anonymous
| PP - while I completely agree with you, I think that Israel needs to be held accountable for all these civilians deaths just like any other country would. It is NOT OKAY - even during wartime - to target civilians. Israel says they are not doing so, but they are certainly targetting humanitarian efforts. President Carter himself has indicated the widespread starvation that has been occurring in Gaza due to Israeli efforts. |
Anonymous
Are you kidding me? Do you realize that Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas on earth? How are Palestinian people NOT supposed to have Hamas fighters in the midst? |
Anonymous
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WAR CRIMES The targeting of civilians, whether by Hamas or by Israel, is potentially a war crime. Every human life is precious. But the numbers speak for themselves: Nearly 700 Palestinians, most of them civilians, have been killed since the conflict broke out at the end of last year. In contrast, there have been around a dozen Israelis killed, many of them soldiers. Negotiation is a much more effective way to deal with rockets and other forms of violence. This might have been able to happen had Israel fulfilled the terms of the June cease-fire and lifted its blockade of the Gaza Strip.
This war on the people of Gaza isn’t really about rockets. Nor is it about “restoring Israel’s deterrence,” as the Israeli press might have you believe. Far more revealing are the words of Moshe Yaalon, then the Israeli Defense Forces chief of staff, in 2002: “The Palestinians must be made to understand in the deepest recesses of their consciousness that they are a defeated people.” http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/08/opinion/08khalidi.html?em |
Anonymous
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If Mexico, or those belligerent Canadians, were randomly firing rockets into Texas, or Minnesota, do you think the US response would be "proportionate"? Hell no.
One day (hopefully) the Palestinians will wake up, read some history books and realize---as did Gandhi in India or MLK in the southern US---that the only truly effective way to overcome an overwhelmingly physically superior oppressor is by non-violent protest. If the US public were viewing nightly news telecasts of massive groups of unarmed PEACEFULLY protesting Palestinians (perhaps standing in front of settlement construction equipment) being set upon with firehoses and dogs---public perception of the Palestinian question would change. As it is, public sympathy for the Palestinians' justifiable outrage over continuing settlement encroachment (among other grievances) is undermined by suicide bombers and random rocket fire meant to terrorize. |
Anonymous
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Your comparison is completely inaccurate.
It's more like if somebody robbed a bank, and then ran home to his neighborhood in Anacostia, and holed up with some hostages - armed with a handgun, and the national guard went in and blew the whole place up for harboring him in their midst. Anybody killed should have known better than to have a criminal in their midst. 700 Palestinians killed. Their lives are worth something. Where is the outrage? |
Anonymous
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13:34, the NYT published this today:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/09/world/middleeast/09redcross.html I wish it were a hoax. But since the Times can hardly be accused of being a Palestinian propaganda machine, I shudder to think of what else is happening in Gaza that we're not hearing about. |